Themor nullifier recommendations

[Oni Noob]

Hi I just found a Thermo Nullifier and my plan is fill it up with Hydrogen inside its surrounding and oil in the outer layer and use it to cool my base. The question is does the amount of hydrogen inside affect how it cools the oil?? Is the more hydrogen the better?

[Neotuck]

Using a conveyor rail with solids to cool your base works better than liquid pipes

[Luminite2]

Not really, no. Don't worry about using a high-pressure vent, for example.

Putting more mass (hydrogen) in the system will make it take longer to get cold initially, but will also make it heat up more slowly if there is a sudden spike in oil temperature. However, the average rate of cooling will be the same.

[MorsDux]

there needs to be a balance between hydrogen pressure and room size, meaning:

- if you have low pressure, you will have low amount of heat exchange between the radiator and the hydrogen. You can offset this by using a larger radiator.

- if you have high pressure you might get away with the smallest room possible. 

 

I used 10x10 abyss rooms with 2k pressure (normal vent max.) and it was more than enough for my 8x8 (64 long) radiators inside. 

[Oni Noob]

1 hour ago, Neotuck said:

Using a conveyor rail with solids to cool your base works better than liquid pipes

I havent use conveyor rail before to cool of my base do you have tutorial or screenshot how to apply it? TIA

1 hour ago, Luminite2 said:

Not really, no. Don't worry about using a high-pressure vent, for example.

Putting more mass (hydrogen) in the system will make it take longer to get cold initially, but will also make it heat up more slowly if there is a sudden spike in oil temperature. However, the average rate of cooling will be the same.

Oh I see, so normal vent would work just fine. I though mass of air play a big role with heat exchange. Thanks

And one more thing, do I need to add temp shift inside the nullifier room? If yes what meterial should I use?

[Neotuck]

45 minutes ago, Oni Noob said:

I havent use conveyor rail before to cool of my base do you have tutorial or screenshot how to apply it? TIA

this is a simple way to turn an AETN.  First find one like this and dig around it placing abyssalite insulated tiles and metal tiles.  Also be sure to place water and normal tiles so you can make a vacuum while you dig out the AETN

once you dig out the ATEN build thermal plates and insulated gas pipes start pumping hydrogen in until the vent can't handle the pressure any more, you can start building the rails while you wait for the room to fill with hydrogen

Deconstruct the vent and the ladders, clean out the room.  Start building metal tiles around the rails and be sure to surround them with insulated tiles

Seal the room and remove the water lock.  Thread the rails around your base.  Use a loader to load up the rail with a good thermal conductor (diamonds are best) deconstruct the loader once the diamonds have made a complete loop.  Having 2 or more conveyor bridges will keep the diamonds moving in an infinite loop without power 

[0xFADE]

Circulating something simpler like crude oil through the base is MUCH cheaper than rails. You don't need an instant heat fix. The nullifiers themselves can only really handle so much. I usually run a line through all 3 of them and it averages the temperature to around 20. That included passing though my nat gens and geysers.

Think quantity. You are going to be passing several hundred total pipe sections worth of crude though them. 

I seal them off in large insulated rooms. Fill them with hydrogen and snake the pipe through to transfer heat.  As well as using granite thermal shift plates inside for more buffering. First nullifier held around 15 degrees. The second around 10 and the last around 5 after many cycles.

Water will likely work just fine till you can replace it with crude.

[Neotuck]

18 minutes ago, 0xFADE said:

Water will likely work just fine till you can replace it with crude.

kinda risky having it freeze in the pipes.  Same with oil too as it freezes at -40C and the ATEN can drop to -150C

[0xFADE]

1 hour ago, Neotuck said:

kinda risky having it freeze in the pipes.  Same with oil too as it freezes at -40C and the ATEN can drop to -150C

I thought so too but using all 3 never dropped any below 5c well over a hundred cycles. If it ever could be a problem I would have to design a bypass to skip one.

[Lifegrow]

1 hour ago, Neotuck said:

kinda risky having it freeze in the pipes.  Same with oil too as it freezes at -40C and the ATEN can drop to -150C

Thats what shut off valves are for - connect one to a thermo switch and you can regulate your AETN with ease.

[Neotuck]

Just now, Lifegrow said:

Thats what shut off valves are for - connect one to a thermo switch and you can regulate your AETN with ease.

Wasn't @0xFADE suggestion suppose to be simpler?  Seems adding automation is more complex than using conveyor rails

Also what is the thermo switch reading?  It's hard to get an accurate reading of liquids inside pipes

[Lifegrow]

5 minutes ago, Neotuck said:

Wasn't @0xFADE suggestion suppose to be simpler?  Seems adding automation is more complex than using conveyor rails

Also what is the thermo switch reading?  It's hard to get an accurate reading of liquids inside pipes

i'd barely call a thermo switch connected to a gas shutoff valve automation... Couldn't really be any simplller than that.

You only have to stop the AETN from cooling too far in order to prevent pipe freezing was my point.

 

[Neotuck]

Just now, Lifegrow said:

i'd barely call a thermo switch connected to a gas shutoff valve automation... Couldn't really be any simplller than that.

You only have to stop the AETN from cooling too far in order to prevent pipe freezing was my point.

 

oh GAS shutoff valve, that makes more sense  

[Oni Noob]

4 hours ago, Neotuck said:

this is a simple way to turn an AETN.  First find one like this and dig around it placing abyssalite insulated tiles and metal tiles.  Also be sure to place water and normal tiles so you can make a vacuum while you dig out the AETN

once you dig out the ATEN build thermal plates and insulated gas pipes start pumping hydrogen in until the vent can't handle the pressure any more, you can start building the rails while you wait for the room to fill with hydrogen

Deconstruct the vent and the ladders, clean out the room.  Start building metal tiles around the rails and be sure to surround them with insulated tiles

Seal the room and remove the water lock.  Thread the rails around your base.  Use a loader to load up the rail with a good thermal conductor (diamonds are best) deconstruct the loader once the diamonds have made a complete loop.  Having 2 or more conveyor bridges will keep the diamonds moving in an infinite loop without power 

Thanks for this. I am not sure if I can do it now. I am very low right now on metals but maybe ill try to apply this on my late game.

[Coolthulhu]

11 minutes ago, Oni Noob said:

I am very low right now on metals

Plastic would work even better (would cool passing items faster), except it has a larger heat capacity, meaning it takes longer to start up.

[Oni Noob]

12 minutes ago, Coolthulhu said:

Plastic would work even better (would cool passing items faster), except it has a larger heat capacity, meaning it takes longer to start up.

So Plastic tile is better compared to Metal Tile?

[Kabrute]

@Oni NoobIs your game experiencing any lag?

[0xFADE]

Oh yeah plastic transfers heat very fast.  If you are not dealing with temperatures anywhere near its melting point.

The design is very nice at least.  A large solid block instead of filling it with gasses.  It should transfer in and out faster at least.

[Neotuck]

I once tested plastic tiles vs metal and the metal transferred heat faster but the plastic stayed cool longer 

[Oni Noob]

2 hours ago, Kabrute said:

@Oni NoobIs your game experiencing any lag?

From time to time I am why? But not if its because of the game or my laptop is running quite a lot of application at a time

1 hour ago, Neotuck said:

I once tested plastic tiles vs metal and the metal transferred heat faster but the plastic stayed cool longer 

Now I am confused whats better transfer faster vs cool longer

[Kabrute]

the less paths a dupe has to choose from the less calculations your computer has to run just for moving people around, its one way of optimizing once the game starts to lag or slow any.  I build 1 way paths as much as possible now out of habit more than anything but I learned my lesson on a base a while back, I had one door that when opened for transit brought me below 5fps, if everyone was locked out, 30+....
 

This will give you the same level of access without any associated lag

i'm an idjit, nvm, @Neotuck check it out.  Sorry noob noob

[wachunga]

The thermal conductivity of the material on the conveyor will be irrelevant in most cases. There is no reason to use diamond over granite for example.

As most of us know, the game states that heat transfer is determined by the lower thermal conductivity. As some of us know, that isn't entirely true. But for conveyors it is true. The material on the conveyor is interacting with whatever comprises the cell (oxygen if the goal is to cool the base) whose conductivity will usually be lower than that of whatever is on the conveyor. So the thermal conductivity of the conveyed item doesn't matter.

I highly recommend people test this stuff in debug, much easier to eliminate variables and test specific things. On a conveyor, wolframite's conductivity of 15 transfers exactly the same amount of heat as tungsten's conductivity of 60. Granite's 3.39 does almost exactly that of diamond's 80, the minor difference is due to the minor difference in each's capacity. If anything, granite could be argued to be better than diamond because of granite's higher capacity. It maintains a higher delta in temperatures, which in turn leads to a higher transfer rate.

The time when the "lower conductivity" rule doesn't apply is with things built in a cell. A tungsten pipe, in theory, performs better than an obsidian one. But in most cases you are held back by the fluid in the pipe so it's irrelevant. Diamond shift plates work because they don't follow the conductivity rule. They will exchange heat even with abyssalite, because diamond's conductivity is high enough to counter abyssalite's extremely low conductivity.

Edit:

In case it's not apparent, I thought I should add a scenario where you could make use of higher conductivity material on a conveyor. Run conveyor behind metal tile with shift plates on adjacent gas/liquid cells. The conveyed material has more conductivity headroom due to interacting with metal tile. From the metal tile you get help transferring to gas/liquid cells with the shift plates. Bridges can do a similar thing. So in very specific circumstances there is a reason for higher conductivity materials on a conveyor. Just snaking a bunch of conveyor through gas/liquid is not it though.

[Denisetwin]

I have never built a conveyor system and the ONI Wiki doesn't say - what is the decor penalty on rails?  I know what it is on pipes.   Thanks.

[Gurgel]

19 hours ago, Neotuck said:

Using a conveyor rail with solids to cool your base works better than liquid pipes

I find that running some wolframite pipes through the cold hydrogen works perfectly fine and granite pipes are then completely fine to cool transformers, batteries, etc. It takes a bit to converge, but eventually you get around 2C temperature reduction from one Nullifier on 10kg water packets. Strangely, the size of the room seems to matter, the larger the better. I tried this up to 85 tiles and got around 2.4C reduction, which is more than the Wiki says the Nullifier does. The Hydrogen pressure seems to not matter above 5kg or so, did not try it below.

On the other hand, solids have the advantage that they do not freeze, which can happen with liquid pipes when there are small packets in there, e.g. when the game loads. And saving those two pumps I need for reasonable water cooling is nice too. 

 

 

[Neotuck]

33 minutes ago, Gurgel said:

cool transformers, batteries, etc.

on the topic of transformers you can use a smart battery to keep them cool by shutting them off when not needed.  I had this one running for almost 50 cycles and it hasn't heated up at all