Features or Exploits (occupation update)

[Zarquan]

I was thinking it would be nice to have a community-run thread deciding in general which tricks we consider unfair exploits and which we consider acceptable features and which are on the edge.  I feel it would help in establishing rules for custom map challenges.

A poll only lets you ask one question at a time, so I think it would be best to use the emote replies to poll.

My thinking is that we could have a 1-5 polling system.  1 is unfair, 5 is fair.

Haha is 5

Thanks is 4

Like is 3

Confused is 2

Sad is 1

Of course, no conclusions here are binding in the slightest.  You can still use these tricks to your heart's content.  However, it might help in setting up base rules for things like the new Succession Colony or custom maps like Lost City.  I'll put a few up for consideration.  Or I would, but it keeps merging my posts with this one...

[Saturnus]

What a pathetic way to fish for reputation point.

[Zarquan]

is that how reputation points happen?  I didn't know that........

I don't know how forums' reputation systems work in general.  Also I don't care in the slightest.

But calling it "Pathetic" is extremely rude.  I just want to know if my schemes are considered fair or not.  And I am sure others want to know about theirs too.

Coming up with another poll system that doesn't clog the forum would be more productive than insulting me.

You could have said so many other things.  Here's an example:

"That polling scheme would artificially inflate your reputation."

Now, this concern is valid, as it breaks a mechanic of the forum.  Is there a way to make this thread not grant reputation.  Can I ask a moderator to do this?

[GreatGameDota]

I agree that Klei could add a feature for multiple polls in one post. For now you can just make a discussion for it where you just talk about which exploits are more moral than others. Making it based on emotes is kinda weird, not even including reputation repercussions.

[Zarquan]

@GreatGameDota

The reason I wanted to include a poll like this so much that I was willing to use emotes was to avoid 7 conversations happening at once.  Things like that cause confusion as to who is talking to whom.  Also, with this scheme, if you wanted to get an average opinion, you would have to read the whole thread from beginning to end and count the opinions by person.

The emotes feel like a clean solution, as they are attached to the post in question and are automatically counted.  It also stops loud voices and long posts from diluting the poll, as each person can only emote once.  It also gives people the opportunity to change their minds later if their objection was based on not understanding the scheme.

Creating an individual poll for each of the tricks would constitute me putting like 5 or 6 separate polls on the main forum right now, and I would like to avoid doing that.  It would also require that anyone else who wants to ask about their own thing can post in a thread.

[Oozinator]

1 hour ago, Zarquan said:

Haha is 5

Your emote - vote - rank translation sounds great ^^
"A poll only lets you ask one question at a time"  I don't really understand it. When i test to create a poll, i could add three questions, or not?

[asveron]

These topics usually belong to Suggestions and Feeback. Posted an identical one a while back, might want to search first before doubleposting 

 

[Zarquan]

4 minutes ago, asveron said:

These topics usually belong to Suggestions and Feeback. Posted an identical one a while back, might want to search first before doubleposting 

 

I don't feel like I am suggesting anything or providing feedback.  Some of the conclusions might end up as feedback, but this feels more like a general discussion to me.  I certainly see where you are coming from though.

About double posting:  I feel that it is probably better to create a new thread for the new update, as some of the physics have been changed, so some of the older posts on that thread aren't in the game anymore.  For example, they removed the tepidizer bug.

[Kabrute]

I too feel fresh posts relevant to the current iteration should be maintained

[asveron]

19 minutes ago, Zarquan said:

I don't feel like I am suggesting anything or providing feedback.  Some of the conclusions might end up as feedback, but this feels more like a general discussion to me.  I certainly see where you are coming from though.

About double posting:  I feel that it is probably better to create a new thread for the new update, as some of the physics have been changed, so some of the older posts on that thread aren't in the game anymore.  For example, they removed the tepidizer bug.

The admins often move it, so I'm guessing they might not want it here.

"About double posting:  I feel that it is probably better to create a new thread for the new update, as some of the physics have been changed, so some of the older posts on that thread aren't in the game anymore.  For example, they removed the tepidizer bug."

Gotcha.

[ImDaMisterL]

2 hours ago, GreatGameDota said:

I agree that Klei could add a feature for multiple polls in one post. For now you can just make a discussion for it where you just talk about which exploits are more moral than others. Making it based on emotes is kinda weird, not even including reputation repercussions.

You could make a suggestion post over at Forum Upgrade, it might actually go through for the next update.

[TheOlz]

How do you determine, or why does it even matter, what is "clever use of mechanics", "feature" and "exploit" in a single player, non-competitive game that is still in development?

& what does a community consensus on these mean?  What value does it add?

Not to take away from your idea, but trying to understand the point.  It doesn't give anyone an edge over anyone else, and anything that is not intended will presumably be fixed during the course of development.

When it comes to succession colonies I understand if there are rules in place for the sharing group, in any other case I'm not seeing any value in this at all.

[PhailRaptor]

3 minutes ago, TheOlz said:

When it comes to succession colonies I understand if there are rules in place for the sharing group, in any other case I'm not seeing any value in this at all.

Well, as an example, a lot of people's processes were straight up broken by the fixing of the Tepidizer bug.  Obviously, as a bug, it was going to get fixed at some point.  But the issue is that there was no new device added to the game that could be used to "replace" it.  Which is doubly confusing, because in order to make the Steam Turbine work, you require a temperature that can only be achieved via Magma or, you guessed it, the Tepidizer bug.  Which suggests that the devs were unaware of just how important that as-yet undeveloped feature is for even working what we have, let alone moving forward.

Kinda like the subordinate tasks issue for the Occupational Update that resulted in most of it getting rolled back before launch, but that's a completely separate topic.

There are also a lot of other examples from other games where something that was originally a bug or exploit in the game gets embraced by the player-base, and the developers end up endorsing it and making other changes to facilitate it.

[Kabrute]

they have an oil burner in the works that "Will melt everything" and a magma river that makes heat a renewable resource though i'm a tad confused on the numbers behind its current iteration which is probably why its not yet in the game.

[Zarquan]

@Saturnus Your posts are as mean spirited posts as some on the They are Billions forums asking for help on strategy on steam.  Well, I guess people seriously posting "get good" is would actually technically solve the problems in they are billions.  I don't understand people like this.  It's almost like you want the me to leave your game because I want to play it differently.  I know you are certainly making me feel extremely unwelcome on this forum and I haven't done anything wrong. 

I had 3 machines of my design ready to post and ask if they were unfair exploits or not.  They aren't here because, despite the unconscionable tone of his comment, he had a point.  I am trying to be reasonable, and though I personally don't care about reputation, some people obviously do and I didn't want to damage the system.  I asked a moderator if he could disable the reputation gains on this thread, and he said that it probably couldn't be done.

Why are you doing this to me?  Did I do something to you?  Do you not realize that some people take attacks on their character seriously?  I feel like I must have offended you in some way to earn such disdain.

 

13 hours ago, TheOlz said:

How do you determine, or why does it even matter, what is "clever use of mechanics", "feature" and "exploit" in a single player, non-competitive game that is still in development?

& what does a community consensus on these mean?  What value does it add?

Not to take away from your idea, but trying to understand the point.  It doesn't give anyone an edge over anyone else, and anything that is not intended will presumably be fixed during the course of development.

When it comes to succession colonies I understand if there are rules in place for the sharing group, in any other case I'm not seeing any value in this at all.

First of all, thank you for being courteous, TheOlz.  Polite discourse is essential for the health of the forum.  Allow me to answer your questions.

How do I determine...? 

I wouldn't.  It's an opinion poll, not an arbitration. 

What does a community consensus on these mean?  What value does it add?

People discuss fair play in single player games often, especially when comparing play styles.  There are some things that are agreed are glitches.  For example, the speedrunning community has glitch free speedruns of things.  To have that, you have to agree what is a glitch and what isn't. 

Games like Oxygen Not Included often spawn competitions and challenges.  I play a game called Caesar 3, a city-building game based in ancient Rome.  There were many competitions and challenges on the forums.  The vast majority of these challenges conform to a standard rule set with a few specific modifications based on the nature of the challenges.  That game doesn't have too many glitches or aberrant behaviors, but they were accounted for and addressed in the rules of the challenges.  It added to the community and gave a reason to consider different strategies, which inspired innovation in the context of the game.

An example of a potential competition that could form in Oxygen Not Included could be "Most Dupes in a Sustainable Base."  If I were to say I created a colony that can stably support over 500 dupes, I think that would be impressive, but you couldn't be sure if it is better or worse than one that supported 475.  By conforming to some specific set of community rules, we could provide a good basis for comparison between different attempts, which can be used to measure accomplishment.

A consensus would only effect gameplay in colonies of players who choose to follow those rules.  They are in no way binding.  If you want to compete in the hypothetical "Most Dupes Sustainably supported" challenge, you would have to follow the rules of that challenge.  I feel this would help the organizers of such a challenge set up acceptable rules.

An example of an unfair exploit:  The Gold Factory.  It can create gold out of thin air.  No effort, no permanent material cost.  Just free gold.  An extremely clever use of mechanics designed by R9MX4.  Do any of you think this is fair?  It is in the game.  It is part of the physics of the world.  It is usable (or it can be made usable again.  Would the game be a challenge with it in the game?  Would the Succession colony let me play if I said I was going to build this?  

Don't emote on this on the machine, as it would inflate my reputation, which is heresy to Saturnus.

 

 

[Kabrute]

Its def not you, Saturnus treats everyone equally, its the only reason I stopped complaining about it as far as "unreasonable" apparently hard coded affects are "unreasonable" as long as the person involved feels that way.  I suggest you start a new post entitled "My build ideas" and start the first line with something like "These builds use whatever works, but if anyone  can see a way to help me get away from exploits please let me know" and then display from there.

[The Plum Gate]

On 2/10/2018 at 12:37 PM, GreatGameDota said:

I agree that Klei could add a feature for multiple polls in one post. For now you can just make a discussion for it where you just talk about which exploits are more moral than others. Making it based on emotes is kinda weird, not even including reputation repercussions.

You can add multiple poll questions to a topic, I have done it before...

 

[Zarquan]

8 minutes ago, The Plum Gate said:

You can add multiple poll questions to a topic, I have done it before...

 

Yes, I was wrong about that.  But they do limit you to 3 questions per poll, which means I couldn't easily have a poll of many devices on one thread.  Plus, I wanted other people to be able to ask about their own machines or constructions in this thread.  I wanted to do this in a single consolidated thread that doesn't clog the forum's main page.