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I am unhappy with Occupational stream


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I am unhappy with stream, because as Early Access buyer, I feel like investor, that want to be reassured that his investition is going well.
I was obviously not expecting a people in suits :) But I expected to be shown, how does the new features fits in roadmap of game and how brings us closer to finished version.

  • Why do I need turbine? How does this fits in heat management and entropy, is this expected to be heat canceler? No need for equations, but I would like to hear some estimates, used by game architect while projecting this tool.
  • Why transport belt and autosweeper - are they planning to remove Duplicants from game, replacing them with Factorio inserters? What was a gameplay idea behind this functionality?
  • How does, from architectural point of view, Occupations are expected to improve gameplay? What authors wanted to achieve adding this - less Dupe walking, single-person construction sites? I accept difficulties, I just want to be sure, that developer knows where are they going to.
  • I am also curios if fixed temperature appliances are just alpha, or the official way this game is gonna work. Are Wheezewort permanent, because looks like gameplay-breaking simplifications? Game with heat cancelers is rather like puzzle, not simulation, is it intentional?

Instead, I was shown two guys speaking "dad jokes" and obviously very happy in their company, joyfully shouting while presenting debug mode. They made rather infantile impression on me. I am pretty sure that none of them had any smallish idea about gameplay real architecture, balance and expected end player experience.

I am really worried about direction this game takes, because some improvements do not best suit the architecture of the game. So I am afraid that, for example, architect of initial ONI quit company; or maybe they killed him to take his job ;)

It would be really nicer, if instead of artist and Unity scripter some senior stuff shows on. And convince me, that it is worth to wait for next updates. I spent wonderful time with ONI, but rather with "older" part, and current update does not make me to want play again.

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Though I can't entirely agree with your disappointment @Maciej75- I was watching live and wanted to suggest that in the future, it would be nice to see them load up a functional base or two rather than starting from the beginning...this has almost never gone well for the duplicants.

Though it may be funny, it seems like the last several ONI streams have consistently included duplicants making messes and generally not being of any demonstrable use ( as duplicants )...but I digress. 

My point here being - they have numerous save games at various stages all turned in on the bug tracker forum specifically concerning the gameplay elements to be explained - builds where the actual testing of such setups is already going on.

This would leave more time for such Q&A.

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Just now, TheOlz said:

You aren't being forced to watch the stream, dude. If you don't enjoy it, don't watch it.

You still have plenty of opportunity for giving feedback through these forums.

Hmm but he is exactly that doing. Giving feedback through the forum. He is free to do, whatever he wants, or not?
A bit salty yes, but some stuff of his posts, shows his individual perspective.
As a joke: You aren't forced to read his posts, dude. If you don't enjoy it, don't read it..

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I think we should show some empathy for the developers: they do have limited time, and there is always a lot to cover in these streams. So I'm not salty they use the debug mode...

...but I bet if they asked someone around to design a test map during the preview branch, they'd immediately get help.

Also, are we really going to complain on the style the devs use to do the streams? Yes, sometimes I also think "can we please go on now?", but I'd rather have this than 2 robots without emotions. There's nothing wrong with their style of presentation.

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5 minutes ago, Oozinator said:

Hmm but he is exactly that doing. Giving feedback through the forum. He is free to do, whatever he wants, or not?
A bit salty yes, but some stuff of his posts, shows his individual perspective.
As a joke: You aren't forced to read his posts, dude. If you don't enjoy it, don't read it..

Yes, of course.

The post sounds very entitled though - like the stream should be designed for his desires.

Klei are doing an amazing job in rolling out new content on a 6 weekly basis (granted this was longer due to holiday period).  They respond by making changes based on the feedback they receive - I think it's completely unfair to take them to task for having some fun on the stream, that they are by no means obligated to give us.  Any stream content is a bonus.

Acting as though you are deserving of some kind of inside information beyond what is laid out in the roadmap is childish, making accusations about the staffing of the game is pretty rude and none of our business, and the last paragraph is entitlement in a nutshell - Demands about what staff should be allowed to stream? Asking to be convinced to stick around because he's unhappy with the current state of the game?

Plenty of people are happy with the current state of the game, and accept that there is a process we go through with Early Access.  But also understand that Early Access doesn't entitle us to anything more than an opportunity to provide feedback.

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For me, buying the alpha was more of "I like what you did guys, keep going" kind of a thing. I don't think it counts as investment.

And release streams are not shareholder meetings, they're supposed to present new functionality in a fun and informative way. I haven't watched this particular stream yet but judging from past streams they're doing a reasonable job.

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When they first streamed the jobs preview I watched it because I wanted to see how the steam turbine worked, It felt like they were stalling throughout the stream and at the end they like ohh steam turbine, unfortunately we almost out of time, They knew the turbine was a complete fail so they didn't show it or even tried to make it work on stream so I ended up wasting a hour in a sense that most of us know how belt and inserters work xD And the stream starts at half 11 at night so have to stay up late just to watch them mess about most of time, I basically stopped watching live streams and their recordings because youtubers are much more informative and generally have their videos out the same night the preview goes live, But it'd be nice to see the developers actually show off new content instead of playing around xD Just my 2 pennies

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So, not a dev, but I can give some general insight on...

4 hours ago, Maciej75 said:
  • Why do I need turbine? How does this fits in heat management and entropy, is this expected to be heat canceler? No need for equations, but I would like to hear some estimates, used by game architect while projecting this tool.

I know a lot of people have asked for a water wheel, for the purpose of generating energy from falling water.  This would be in the same vein, and has also been asked for, if less frequently.  It could potentially be used as a way to get some power back from waste heat, instead of counting on a cooling system to nullify it.

That is, if the way it was balanced made any sense, and if we had some new device implemented alongside the fixing of the Tepidizer bug that was required to achieve the required temps for the Turbine to actually work.

4 hours ago, Maciej75 said:
  • Why transport belt and autosweeper - are they planning to remove Duplicants from game, replacing them with Factorio inserters? What was a gameplay idea behind this functionality?

A significant portion of this was to offset the removal of passive leveling, which was then reverted.  The idea was to leverage Transit Tubes (for Dupes) alongside Conveyors (for solid stuffs) to overcome the drastic speed drop from midgame onward with Athletics no longer increasing over the game.

While the passive leveling reversion does reduce the value of Conveyors, it doesn't make them useless by any stretch.  There are a lot of processes that can be devized to produce solid goods, that are then quite difficult to get a Dupe into the system in order to actually grab the item that's been made.  Such systems usually required working in extended cycles, where the system runs for a while to create stuff, then has to shut down and "empty" an area, to allow Dupes to run in and collect whatever it was designed to make, then fill up again once they leave before it can start again.  Dirt from a P-H2O boiler, for example.  Conveyors most certainly have a place in the game.

4 hours ago, Maciej75 said:
  • How does, from architectural point of view, Occupations are expected to improve gameplay? What authors wanted to achieve adding this - less Dupe walking, single-person construction sites? I accept difficulties, I just want to be sure, that developer knows where are they going to.

The effort that was spent on the Occupation portion ultimately was stymied by a combination of Priority system problems, and the reversion to keep passive skill leveling.  The simple fact is that the Devs bit off a bit more than they could chew.  They didn't account for the issues like a Researcher never getting Dirt or Water to run the Super Computer, instead waiting for a Gopher to collect them and deliver for them.  But the Gopher was usually occupied running around the corners of the base bringing construction materials so the Architect could construct things like Ladders and Tiles so the Miner could make it to the area that was marked for digging.  And so on and so forth.

Rightly so, a lot of people were complaining about the fact that having someone in the job of, continuing the example, Researcher, would only prioritize the task of Research.  It did not also prioritize the sub-tasks of Research, like filling the Super Computer with Dirt or Water.  Issues like that ultimately brought growth of the base to a screeching halt.

I fully expect to see more iteration on Jobs in the future, because right now there are only a few that are necessary, and those only for specific things.

4 hours ago, Maciej75 said:
  • I am also curios if fixed temperature appliances are just alpha, or the official way this game is gonna work. Are Wheezewort permanent, because looks like gameplay-breaking simplifications? Game with heat cancelers is rather like puzzle, not simulation, is it intentional?

I would also like to know if fixed temperature outputs are meant to be a permanent fixture of the game, or if they are just there now while the game is still under development.  It doesn't make any kind of sense from a thermodynamic point of view, or logical sense.  It also results in a lot of exploitation, and optimizing systems around them.  But while the game is under development, it would make sense to leave a crutch like that in place while you are still trying to figure out what the game actually needs.  I certainly hope that, as the game nears it's final, official release, that this topic is revisited.

Wheezeworts, on the other hand, I don't have a problem with.  There are too many things that create heat, and there are (now) only 3 ways to get rid of it.  Wheezeworts, exploiting fixed temperature output buildings, and the Anti-Entropy Device(s) that can be found in the Ice Biome.  Almost everything else the player can construct will produce heat.  If there was nowhere for the heat to go, the game would ultimately be pointless (and, indeed, unplayable) because of what has been called "heat death".  First, the Bristle Berries would stop growing.  Then the Mealwood.  Eventually the heat would seep through the Abyssalite veins and into the Ice Biomes, melting them through and killing the Sleet Wheat.  Sooner or later things like Copper would start to melt.  And so on.

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Disliking the presentation style of the stream is perfectly fine. This is personal preference and can't really be criticised, but I can't see any logic or merit in the rest of what you have to say. You're throwing around a lot of confusing and baseless assumptions and honestly, I trust Klei's expertise at game design far more than an anonymous person on a forum board - they have a great track record. Early access titles are caveat emptor. You aren't an 'investor', you bought a game currently in active development, presumably based on what was already there and what you hoped the game would become. If you don't like the uncertainty of this arrangement then it may be better to buy games when they're finished instead.

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I think I had too much expectations, so judged severely.

I have a new theory, that the game was created by two teams:

Deep coding team - specialist of physics that made all those heat transfers, and low level coders that made simulation of whole world work. Moreover, those people were able to define compromises that keep everything computationally possible, while being almost invisible, like replacing pressure with "mass of gas in tile" (no thermodynamics).
But Deep Coding team wants to kill our Duplicants! They do, by placing life conducive biome inside deadly hot ones, defended by layer of Abyss. And we have to dig through Abyss, before Oxygen ends. And then heat comes and kills Dupes!

Happy coding team - after deadly engine ready, game goes into their hands, to generate attractive gameplay. They are authors of best games of last years, masters of playability, funny animations, and all those devices used by Dupes and scripts defining this all. Their task is to provide players with means allowing Duplicants to avoid death in heat.
Unfortunately, their skills in handling "game engine heat challenges" are limited to "electrolyzer.output.temperature = 70[Celsius];". And they do not see anything bad in this - game was unplayable, they identified source of problem (too much heat in air) so lowered output to playable value. Exploit to physics? What physics? It is not exploit, if it makes game fun.

So those guys on stream were obviously from Happy Coding team, and have no big idea about entropy in game. My expectation, that they can address my "game architecture doubts" were plainly stupid. They make appliances working, not world.

This is possible, that Klei acquired physical game engine from external developers. So start of Early Access was also start of development inside Klei by Happy Coding team. In such case, no new "true" functionality will ever happen, only devices added, handling old stuff in new way.

2 hours ago, TheOlz said:

You aren't being forced to watch the stream, dude.

I am not being forced to play this, dude. I am serious - it looks that best times of this game are in past.

I had really great fun learning "bended physics", prepared by Deep Coding, to: fight for oxygen, CO2, heat, for gaining water, handling illness (hypothermia after rescuing water supplies).
But I am not interested in learning how to use devices by Happy Coding team, that are full of unreasonable reservations to force us to play one way. This is no longer simulation, this is puzzle with only one good solution.

1 hour ago, Kasuha said:

I don't think it counts as investment.

I know. But I still can worry about my investment, in the sense that game gave me much fun, but there will be no more. Best was in past.

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Let's get this straight:

The game costs 23 euro's where I life, for that money you get a game with a high replayability and each playthrough can go on for hundreds of hours. The developers don't bother us with stupid things like lootboxes or micro transactions, and they keep adding content without asking for a fee.

I think this is a lot more you get from than a AAA game like AC: Origins, for a third of the price if you include DLC's. Developers here are also much more involved with the community, taking direct feedback and incooperating it into future builds. The conveyer system for instance is an idea inspired by this community!

Criticism is fine, but to put it in juvenile terms like "deep coding team" and "happy coding team" is under-acknowledging the effort.

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10 hours ago, turbonl64 said:

The game costs 23 euro's where I life

So you are one of persons, that only money are most important? Well, well...
Game is worth every penny spend on it.
But game also deserves most of critic it receives.

10 hours ago, turbonl64 said:

high replayability

Low replayability. This issues was raised on forum a few times with conclusion, that alpha/beta has to force us to go preprogrammed way to test main gameplay path first. Developers promised more biomes, some people expects this to add more ways to play.

As for me, replayability is low, because whole game is currently to learn preprogrammed tricks a.k.a. "heat cancelers". So I am curios if this is going to be changed.

10 hours ago, turbonl64 said:

stupid things like lootboxes or micro transactions

Money money... 

10 hours ago, turbonl64 said:

for a third of the price if

Talking about money...

10 hours ago, turbonl64 said:

The conveyer system for instance is an idea inspired by this community!

I am afraid, that conveyors are first step in Factorio direction. Factorio forums were dominated by Macrobase funboys. If this happens here, then ONI we know will die.

10 hours ago, turbonl64 said:

juvenile terms like "deep coding team"

????

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2 hours ago, Maciej75 said:

As for me, replayability is low, because whole game is currently to learn preprogrammed tricks a.k.a. "heat cancelers". So I am curios if this is going to be changed.

Not everybody plays ONI in the most efficient way; not everybody plays ONI with super-contraptions or "preprogrammed tricks"; some of us play the game because we enjoy the process of growing a new colony and dealing with its challenges in the simplest way possible. There's a reason that while I envy, on the one hand, those with loads of science/engineering knowledge who build these amazing systems or devise "tricks" to address various issues, I also choose not to get mired in them because I don't want to see ONI as a game that can only be played ONE way. Because it isn't. 

And guess what? The game, even in its early access phase, gives those who are deep into systems and efficiency as well as those like me all sorts of options for how we play the game. There are some amazing people in this community who have done all sorts of specific challenge colonies (e.g., "accept every dupe" challenge, "algae not included," etc.). There are challenge maps even. A game as limited as you suggest wouldn't even allow for that creativity in gameplay. 

It doesn't matter how developed this game gets, there will always, ALWAYS be those who whittle it down to the "the most efficient way" (by and large). If you choose to see that as the "only" way, that's a displeasure of your own making.

 

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14 hours ago, turbonl64 said:

Let's get this straight:

The game costs 23 euro's where I life, for that money you get a game with a high replayability and each playthrough can go on for hundreds of hours. The developers don't bother us with stupid things like lootboxes or micro transactions, and they keep adding content without asking for a fee.

I think this is a lot more you get from than a AAA game like AC: Origins, for a third of the price if you include DLC's. Developers here are also much more involved with the community, taking direct feedback and incooperating it into future builds. The conveyer system for instance is an idea inspired by this community!

Criticism is fine, but to put it in juvenile terms like "deep coding team" and "happy coding team" is under-acknowledging the effort.

Well said. I couldn't agree more

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14 hours ago, turbonl64 said:

Criticism is fine, but to put it in juvenile terms like "deep coding team" and "happy coding team" is under-acknowledging the effort.

The effort to move backwards?  Bravo, successful job all around.  An advanced march to the rear is not retreating.....  Far as I can tell they tried to be subtle, deep as in deep thinking, depth of skill and vision.  Happy as in happy go lucky no cares or worries just tinkering around with no regard.  I personally have complained vehemently about the use of knee jerk reactions without proper foresight at the forefront and have born witness to the cascade of now systemic problems caused by implementing bandaids in the first place.  They don't Play it, they use debug even to build the first items.  OMG i'm dying they can't build a proper base but they expect the playerbase to contrive extraordinary contraptions even against the mindnummbing wall of obstacles they heap up in our way?  I'm good, i'll play the working version, almost figured out how to convert it to "Science sold separately" :D

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I have made requests in the suggestions forums  - many are of which are stupid - but some of which must have been heard or thought about and took an update or two to come to fruition in some way - they've consistently gone over and beyond with good ideas. So as an early access buyer and someone who doesn't play on a normal basis because of seasonal work...I'm quite happy that they're listening.

 

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I think they shouldn't do debug mode on live streams. Please prepare, make a functional game, then stream, as if you're presenting the new update to a new customer.

I mean imagine if a probable buyer saw that last stream, he would be disappointed!

Older streams used to be much better.

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I feel like everyone has a vision of where they would like the game to go, but unless were sitting with the developers it's only an idea. I agree that showcasing the new game features in debug mode is not as appealing to seasoned players but it makes it simpler to explain to new players. Also, I don't think they want to explain the new features too much. If they wanted to, they would make a full tutorial but that's not how Klei rolls so why would you expect the stream to be super detailed?

The game is suppose to be with you trying and failing and tweaking systems that you create in order to make your colony survives.

This update makes the game more challenging: You require more dupes to run your base, food managing is harder and you start with a few less calories, skills don't level up as fast, stress is a bit harder to manage and so is immunity. Why don't you find value in that ?

Personally, when I learn about entropy in science class, I wanted to "fix" it even though it's impossible. When I learned about black stars, I wanted to find a way to grab enough of it so that I could make a paper holder even though it would make the planet implode (which I sometimes want to do too haha) So this game is my perfect toy and I'll take on new challenges that future upgrades brings even if it's not perfect at first.

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