Further Thoughts on the Update as a whole

[chemie]

47 minutes ago, clickrush said:

 

I suggest the following to make the new system work better:

 

4. The Supply job feels awkward, because in order to build stuff you need to supply the materials. I can never opt dupes out of that job if they should be able to build, but this breaks the system because I don't want my builders to fuel coal generators and deoxydizers. This hard dependency was always a little bit of a problem and I think it can/should be fixed, to make the new system more smooth.

This is because Klei have confused jobs and tasks.

The task of building a ladder segment involves three job...dig, delivery, and construction.  Researching involves delivering water and running a machine.  Specifying a job does not allow a task to occur.

Compounding this is selecting one job breaks tasks.  So making a dup an exosuits job means he can't dig hard materials.

Also, athletics was critical to getting to the far corners of the world so that brings your base to a halt even with jobs.

[goboking]

2 hours ago, mickaux said:

Not exactly. I'm stating, that overcoming the difficulties of exploration in early game is a new purpose and a new challenge, that wasn't there with dupes running around with 50 athletics. Let's take a look at the challenges that were made up, just to make this early stage more challenging.

I'm willing to bet the early game was plenty challenging in your first colony or two.  You're looking at the game through the prism of your own experience.  Any system, no matter how challenging it may be, will become trivial given enough time and practice.  But a new player doesn't know that cracking into a slime biome may cause a slime lung outbreak.  Or that wheezeworts can be found in a cold biome.  Or that water is infinitely renewable.  Or that one must dig down to find oil.  Just something to think about.

[Grimgaw]

1 hour ago, chemie said:

This is because Klei have confused jobs and tasks.

The task of building a ladder segment involves three job...dig, delivery, and construction.  Researching involves delivering water and running a machine.  Specifying a job does not allow a task to occur.

Compounding this is selecting one job breaks tasks.  So making a dup an exosuits job means he can't dig hard materials.

Also, athletics was critical to getting to the far corners of the world so that brings your base to a halt even with jobs.

This pretty much sums up my thoughts on this update. Well put.

[chemie]

23 hours ago, Saturnus said:

Well. To explore you need to dig. And for more exotic builds that require exosuits. Great. Trouble is with the giant nerf to speed that -6 Athletics is for a miner they usually don't even make it half-way to the job before they have to pee, or eat, or sleep. So you really never get anything done after a certain point. The dupes spend most of their time getting interrupted in their current job and dropping the stuff they were carrying which then needs someone to pick it up, so even more jobs gets neglected. You just have a constant spiral of job not getting done. It's not that there are any emergencies, it's just that digging near the oil biome can take 10s of cycles just to clear out a 4x8 tile area. And then 10s of cycles more to build what you wanted there.

Let me expand.

You can't give the dup the exosuit job because he can't dig hard materials.

If you put him in exosuit and give him dig job, he will spend the full cycle for a round trip so no digging gets done

So you leave digger naked but that requires oxygen at job site.

At that point, you might as well have builder and gofer go naked too.

So by creating an exosuit job (and having a nerf to athletics without the job), you have a system that essentially forces players to NOT use exosuits!  Hardly a good design choice.

The solution is hard too.  If you remove the nerf to athletics, then that eliminates the exo job.  If you change the job to a buff, it likely eliminates the builder/gofer jobs as you would choose the exo job just for the athletics buff.

I think the root of the issue is two fold:

1. Job are being confused with tasks,.Most common tasks require more than one job by a dup.

2.. Athletics was critical to being able to transverse the large meteor.  While I did not like all dups as super fast and gaining it just by walking, their response is so heavy handed.  The fact they asked for saves seems to suggest they never tested or play very differently.  I cant see how you would not notice a -6 athletics dups never getting to remote job sites.

Just allowing dups to keep their skills when switching jobs (as some have proposed) is just papering over the problem and essentially makes it a manual hat swap to level dups when instead you could have them gain the same experience by doing tasks (like learn digging while digging).  Make athletics require something other than walking (like time on ladders, poles or hamster wheel for example).  With athletics locked, I see no easy fix and you are left with crazy things like fully contained remote bases (which won;t work because you often are digging all around looking for geysers or resources) or like what you posted elsewhere where you eliminate beds and tables and toilets to force dups to work due to travel time becoming game breaking.  And to the people who say "that is what tubes are for": that is late game and not applicable when you are just trying to dig to the oil biome.

[Hechicera]

I have noticed that past about turn 50 or so ladders just don't happen outside the base unless I bump them up one priority. This is opposite from how it was for me before, where ladders built quickly but tunnels were 2x slower (2x digging vs 1x dig was usually the hitch as my dupes never had super high dig skills). But now the ladder requires 3 visits: dig, supply build, where as a horizontal tunnel requires dig2x.

Any digger (in a job) is now much faster than my pre-job diggers and they don't return to base after every tile (at first). So assuming the dig site is within bladder/rest range, the tunnel goes fast. But with no Athletics the ladders really, really crawl to get three dupes there. The ladders are easier early in the game too with fewer dupes. Often there is no gopher or they are busy, so the builder can deliver, then build. That makes it two trips vs the one trip for tunnels. Still slower, but I notice that once I cross about 12 dupes that changes, and it is nearly always three trips not a lucky two.

[Oozinator]

I needed 250 cycles, to setup a working geyser cooling..
Game is so boring now.

[Grimgaw]

3 minutes ago, Hechicera said:

I have noticed that past about turn 50 or so ladders just don't happen outside the base unless I bump them up one priority. This is opposite from how it was for me before, where ladders built quickly but tunnels were 2x slower (2x digging vs 1x dig was usually the hitch as my dupes never had super high dig skills). But now the ladder requires 3 visits: dig, supply build, where as a horizontal tunnel requires dig2x.

Any digger (in a job) is now much faster than my pre-job diggers and they don't return to base after every tile (at first). So assuming the dig site is within bladder/rest range, the tunnel goes fast. But with no Athletics the ladders really, really crawl to get three dupes there. The ladders are easier early in the game too with fewer dupes. Often there is no gopher or they are busy, so the builder can deliver, then build. That makes it two trips vs the one trip for tunnels. Still slower, but I notice that once I cross about 12 dupes that changes, and it is nearly always three trips not a lucky two.

That's because before Build was prioritised over Dig.

[chemie]

7 minutes ago, Grimgaw said:

That's because before Build was prioritised over Dig.

It is like the city work crew with 10 guys standing around watching one guy work.

You used to be able to have a single dup dig, deliver and build (or at least two of those) and now you need three separate trips.  At a remote location, no ladders ever get done.

[Saturnus]

5 minutes ago, chemie said:

It is like the city work crew with 10 guys standing around watching one guy work.

You used to be able to have a single dup dig, deliver and build (or at least two of those) and now you need three separate trips.  At a remote location, no ladders ever get done.

ONI got Unionized 

[GrindThisGame]

I would:

1. Get rid of attributes all together because they are too similar to jobs. Character creation becomes picking job preferences and traits.
2. Allow all dupes to level up any job and get the boost from that job (at 100% xp) even after swapping to a new job (maybe the hat worn is their best job) or have hats just as optional fashion.
3. BUT decay high level skills that aren't currently used (sort of like rimworld) this avoids the super dupe but allows for very great dupes in very late game. These near super dupes in late game would have very high decor and food expectations.
4. Increase the global run speed by 50% and reduce the exosuit penalty slightly to allow for exosuit miners, gophers.

This removes complexity, creates a more fluid experience IMO but keeps most of the spirit of jobs.

 

[Grimgaw]

My way of salvaging OU:

First of all job priority needs to go. New system doesn't improve anything, it's confusing and frankly doesn't add anything over old one.

I really like jobs  and I feel like certain tasks and buildings should be gated behind those jobs. I just don't like the way the jobs are implemented at the moment.

I'd let dupes level like they did before up to certain cap on abilities e.g. 5-10 and upon reaching that cap be able to further specialise and level relevant attribute (up to another cap) in that field by selecting a job (and by extension being able to perform certain advanced tasks e.g. engineer needed to build that aquatunner). This opens an option to require multiple stats requirements for some advance jobs. And by all means limit the amount of advanced tasks dupe can perform (say 3 e.g. dig, deliver, build). You could even introduce some goofy machine to wipe their little brains if player changes their mind, loose the professions and attributes and let them grind new jobs. This solution avoids constant dupe re-rolls as well.

One can dream.

PS give us option to switch off hats!   

[Lutzkhie]

and i still want my fish! where is nemo?! which update well he be on?
(im referring about the fish on the main menu)

[Kabrute]

No debug just dedication

Parts are definitely slower, and its not the same game it was last week or even 3 days ago now but its a game, its kinda funish maybe.  I think i've got it figured out for now though, when the water inside the base runs out is when the real fun begins

[Hechicera]

"Dancing" storage bins seem to be intentional now. Useful, in that it seems to only happen when something inside is not under enough pressure to keep it from off-gassing (slime/bleach so far). Not checked with pressurized storage yet as am testing layouts in more runs as opposed to pushing one run far.

Food micro, when swapping jobs often is very unfun. I see the layer of difficulty, but most of the time early you just want to set a dupe going from a high tier to a low tier to not eat "above his new station" (which is often temporary) so then you want to go back to "eat everything". There *is* and "Eat everything", but not a "Don't Eat Above Your Current Expectation" button. I like that you can finely adjust, in theory, but in practice I haven't had a need and avoid the micro 99% of the time.

My colony last night started to wobble at near turn 200. No luck finding geysers, or any type, until ~140. I finally found one water 10 tiles from the edge of the map. I am not using the debug cheat to see them. I over extended before, due to water, and that caused it. Had I been more careful with water, I should have been fine. So over extending has a stronger penalty now.

Wounds in a hot geyser and scalding hot power area caused the already slow dupes to crawwwwwwwl. I did build a bathroom/algae planter halfway so I was in "bladder" range, and was no exosuits. I learned the following which was useful:

You have to manually assign a dupe to the med bay for wounds to have them heal faster. It works like a charm, the annoyance is not knowing who has wounds if you are looking at the other side and don't see them crawling. I spent much of my time in the Vitals screen, mouse-click x2 down every single dupe. The med bay thing is nice, but I have no idea when someone gets medium wounds! Perhaps have a setting on the bed to auto-send wounds at check medium/severe? Or a notification that a dupe has medium wounds? I like the idea, just not the micro of figuring out when they are injured.

[Hechicera]

The new change for miners to mine out structures ahead of time = massive miner death unless carefully managed.

You can't pre-draw nearly as much since they'll mine themselves past all hope of a return structure, even priority 1. With the mining speed being higher now, and my feeling like I need to run on medium speed, or things pass slow, they die FAST!