Opinions on Woodie for medium-level players

[CarlZalph]

On 12/7/2017 at 11:45 AM, Chromo said:

Do you think Woodie is a good character for mid-level players? If not, who would you suggest?

He's an alright character for any tier of player, even new ones.

The sanity on planting trees will make newer players forgo having to learn how to fight the shadow creatures like they tend to fear, the always on beard will help in the winter without giving them an option to remove it right before winter, and the infinite axe will make them not need any flint to make fires.

 

I'd say that a Wicker would be a better for mid-level players just because she can do everything and then some more with her books.

It leaves her with options rather than 'I can get one resource really quickly.'

[Toroic]

8 hours ago, Tumalu said:

Cactus is pretty good, but it takes a lot more effort to make 10 pierogis than to get a bunch of blue mushrooms. It's not so bad once you're very well established and have big food generation methods at your fingertips (at which point jerky rocks so much), but, takes awhile.

I might be overestimating how convenient mushrooms would be past trying to rush ruins/dragonfly ASAP though.

If you're doing a speedrun, mushrooms all the way.  Otherwise, you probably can produce more than enough pierogis considering all they need is a morsel, a veggie, and an egg.

6 hours ago, HamBatter said:

The Mushtree idea is pretty good for early short term use, better for the environment than selfishly destroying Mushroom spawners. You can also use the Red Mushtree biome for Pierogis.

And as Woodie naturally gets more Logs, it also makes Log Suits a bit cheaper.

Redshrooms are basically only useful for filler, and yeah, Woodie tends to have a lot of both logs and living logs.  I really like him as a character, I just feel his werebeaver form has a lot of untapped potential.

[Ressayez]

On 12/9/2017 at 6:59 AM, TheKingofSquirrels said:

Woody is unplayable. 

The way the banjo music and the insanity sound effects mix is unbearable. 

And then there's how it looks: the sepia colour + the de-coloring effects of insanity makes them game look hideous. I mean, just look at it...

This can be solved by simply making the insanity damage happen to your character AFTER HE TRANSFORMS BACK.

But at the moment, he's unplayable. 

 @CarlZalph's godsend of a mod: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=882610849

It's client-side and can disable or limit the insanity ambience. As for the music and screen tints, I'm sorry, you're on your own there. I personally turn my music down or off if I'm not feeling hoedown-y.

While the lack of any control over the presence or lack of colour sucks, I've never found the game to be unplayable because it looks dreary. The only time the tint from insanity and the werebeaver vision has gotten in the way of me playing is during winter. You want to talk unplayable? Try kiting a terrorbeak you can't ******* see (pictured below, this is a testing server, so there's an HP mod that indicates where the crawling horror is). Zalph's got a mod for that too: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=822508420

I get the feeling this guy ain't a stranger to nightmare farming.

[Toroic]

4 hours ago, Ressayez said:

 @CarlZalph's godsend of a mod: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=882610849

It's client-side and can disable or limit the insanity ambience. As for the music and screen tints, I'm sorry, you're on your own there. I personally turn my music down or off if I'm not feeling hoedown-y.

While the lack of any control over the presence or lack of colour sucks, I've never found the game to be unplayable because it looks dreary. The only time the tint from insanity and the werebeaver vision has gotten in the way of me playing is during winter. You want to talk unplayable? Try kiting a terrorbeak you can't ******* see (pictured below, this is a testing server, so there's an HP mod that indicates where the crawling horror is). Zalph's got a mod for that too: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=822508420

I get the feeling this guy ain't a stranger to nightmare farming.

Those are good tips and mods but I wouldn’t recommend farming shadows as werebeaver anyway because the damage is pitiful.

even as woodie a hambat is much more efficient.

[56933043043]

On 12/9/2017 at 8:59 AM, TheKingofSquirrels said:

Woody is unplayable. 

The way the banjo music and the insanity sound effects mix is unbearable. 

And then there's how it looks: the sepia colour + the de-coloring effects of insanity makes them game look hideous. I mean, just look at it...

This can be solved by simply making the insanity damage happen to your character AFTER HE TRANSFORMS BACK.

But at the moment, he's unplayable. 

Yikes. It's been over a year since I uploaded that crappily recorded video, hasn't it?

Spoiler

 

I think 90% of the people who read this forum don't have any interest in DST PvP, but for those who do, the Werebeaver is an...interesting option for PvP. Due to the beaver's slightly faster attack anim, he can maintain stun chains pretty easily on other players. His damage is pathetic just like in the main game, but if you can manage to keep an enemy stun-locked so it can't retaliate , it's just a matter of time till you overwhelm em. If they try to run, the Werebeaver is 10% faster than average and has night vision to move itself tactically at night. However, you will eventually become insane and be hounded by nightmare creatures(which will interfere with combat pretty significantly if your opponent isn't also insane. Also, the Werebeaver has almost no protection and can't heal, so if you fight players with any sleep, fire staves, or just a boomerang, turn back into a human or you might as well give up. Pretty strong early on, a terrible option beyond any sort of opposing sleep/ranged equipment is obtained.

Woodie himself just has the extra edge of being able to recover sanity quickly(as it isn't uncommon to go insane in PvP from how often blue caps are used as healing items, it can save you from being hounded by horrors while fighting another player), and chopping trees quickly(can help with the spawning of a treeguard, living logs needed for dark swords). So he's an okay choice.

[CarlZalph]

11 hours ago, Ressayez said:

I get the feeling this guy ain't a stranger to nightmare farming.

Also have a mod that can disable that insanity edge screen effect overlay:

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=368686576

Also just added support for woodie's overlay.

 

And then just did this:

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1229018711

Disables all colourcubes from changing, or having other post processing effects applied.

[Mario384]

6 hours ago, Sketched_Philo said:

Yikes. It's been over a year since I uploaded that crappily recorded video, hasn't it?

  Hide contents

 

I think 90% of the people who read this forum don't have any interest in DST PvP, but for those who do, the Werebeaver is an...interesting option for PvP. Due to the beaver's slightly faster attack anim, he can maintain stun chains pretty easily on other players. His damage is pathetic just like in the main game, but if you can manage to keep an enemy stun-locked so it can't retaliate , it's just a matter of time till you overwhelm em. If they try to run, the Werebeaver is 10% faster than average and has night vision to move itself tactically at night. However, you will eventually become insane and be hounded by nightmare creatures(which will interfere with combat pretty significantly if your opponent isn't also insane. Also, the Werebeaver has almost no protection and can't heal, so if you fight players with any sleep, fire staves, or just a boomerang, turn back into a human or you might as well give up. Pretty strong early on, a terrible option beyond any sort of opposing sleep/ranged equipment is obtained.

Woodie himself just has the extra edge of being able to recover sanity quickly(as it isn't uncommon to go insane in PvP from how often blue caps are used as healing items, it can save you from being hounded by horrors while fighting another player), and chopping trees quickly(can help with the spawning of a treeguard, living logs needed for dark swords). So he's an okay choice.

Hey, I was the other beaver here!  I remember this on SU PVP and I was dying of laughter the entire time. 

[StealthBeast]

Depends. What's a "medium" proficient player?

I've been called an expert by entire servers. Rolling my eyes as 4 Wendys in a pub panic over what they're gonna do about Deerclops, before I proceed to solo it with a log suit.

I've been called a novice by entire servers. Pissing in the ruins wondering "WTF AM I DOING HERE IT'S DAY 7" as I try to keep up with these... demi-gods of players who frolic about the lichen fields, conversing like it's no big deal.

The difficulty curve is soooo gradual yet the skill ceiling is absurdly high.. I'm not convinced there ARE "medium" players.

Woodie to me is just... another neutral option. He has no major upsides, he has no major downsides. Yet unlike Wilson and Winona, he's specialized enough that he's not the best... let's say, "learning" character. His effortless control over his sanity could become a crutch.

I'm glad that Woodie exists, and he's definitely not out of place, but I don't feel like he's especially good for any particular "tier" of player skill. If you play him, that's your prerogative, have fun.

...

Man I just said a whole lotta nothin', didn't I?

[ShadowDuelist]

I've also used the beaver form to delay starvation when joining super late into "ecological disaster" servers (the beavers hunger meter is super slow, and can feed on trees/twigs/nibbling rocks).

The beaver is a great mutitool early on when you have nothing, and a great way to obtain logs/living logs and get insta insane, but beyond midgame and lategame most of Woodie's perks become kinda redundant. Keeping a stack of cones to get sane super fast is helpful throughout the game, but not such a big deal honestly.

The beaver form could possibly get some sort of buff to stay relevant later in the game: like spending x amounts of full moons  affected to get improved beaver stats (more dmg, faster attack speed). Stats could be lost if you die, making it a time consuming challenge. Also if the beaver could keep any hat/helm woodie had on (or allies coud equip them on him) survavility while transformed would be a lot easier and unique.

[TheKingofSquirrels]

Honestly...His character, because of the way his unavoidable insanity affects sound and visuals, make his character just an un-pleasurable experience. 

Which in my book, counts as unplayable. 

[Toroic]

13 hours ago, StealthBeast said:

Depends. What's a "medium" proficient player?

I've been called an expert by entire servers. Rolling my eyes as 4 Wendys in a pub panic over what they're gonna do about Deerclops, before I proceed to solo it with a log suit.

I've been called a novice by entire servers. Pissing in the ruins wondering "WTF AM I DOING HERE IT'S DAY 7" as I try to keep up with these... demi-gods of players who frolic about the lichen fields, conversing like it's no big deal.

The difficulty curve is soooo gradual yet the skill ceiling is absurdly high.. I'm not convinced there ARE "medium" players.

Woodie to me is just... another neutral option. He has no major upsides, he has no major downsides. Yet unlike Wilson and Winona, he's specialized enough that he's not the best... let's say, "learning" character. His effortless control over his sanity could become a crutch.

I'm glad that Woodie exists, and he's definitely not out of place, but I don't feel like he's especially good for any particular "tier" of player skill. If you play him, that's your prerogative, have fun.

...

Man I just said a whole lotta nothin', didn't I?

Medium skill to me is indefinite survival year round, which covers all the mandatory content.  Beyond that you’re talking about optional content.

 

As far as Woodie not having a niche.  I don’t disagree with you, but I think in a lot of ways the problem with characters goes a lot deeper especially when you look at different skill levels.

For both Woodie and Willow they’re built to solve problems no one has.  Almost always the first craftable items are an axe and torch, both of which are made from cheap materials and in Willow’s case torches provide better light than her lighter.

Both of them have perks that are easily replaced by cheap items and Woodie’s werebeaver form is almost entirely a downside beyond very early game.

In contrast, both Wx and Wicker and very easy and very powerful in DST for new and experienced players alike, so I really don’t understand why both Willow and Woodie caught DST nerfs.

@TheKingofSquirrels if you were any good at playing Woodie you’d know it’s very easy to avoid going insane as werebeaver (or going werebeaver at all with caves enabled).  However, that’s a pretty massive if.

[TheKingofSquirrels]

5 minutes ago, Toros said:

@TheKingofSquirrels if you were any good at playing Woodie you’d know it’s very easy to avoid going insane as werebeaver (or going werebeaver at all with caves enabled).  However, that’s a pretty massive if.

Enlighten me. 

[Toroic]

Just now, TheKingofSquirrels said:

Enlighten me. 

You can avoid going Werebeaver outside of full moons by eating logs, and if you’re in caves when night starts on a full moon you don’t transform.  You can also drop a stack of logs shortly before transforming which you can then eat to transform back before losing more than 20-30 sanity even on a full moon.

You can deliberately cycle to werebeaver and back to restore your log meter via gnawing (instead of eating logs) and then plant the freed pinecones, but it’s entirely possible to either never go werebeaver (via ducking into caves for full moons) or to avoid going insane by quickly shifting back by dropping logs.

 

Woodie has too few uses for his Werebeaver form but it’s pretty trivial to avoid.

[TheKingofSquirrels]

19 minutes ago, Toros said:

You can avoid going Werebeaver outside of full moons by eating logs, and if you’re in caves when night starts on a full moon you don’t transform.  You can also drop a stack of logs shortly before transforming which you can then eat to transform back before losing more than 20-30 sanity even on a full moon.

You can deliberately cycle to werebeaver and back to restore your log meter via gnawing (instead of eating logs) and then plant the freed pinecones, but it’s entirely possible to either never go werebeaver (via ducking into caves for full moons) or to avoid going insane by quickly shifting back by dropping logs.

 

Woodie has too few uses for his Werebeaver form but it’s pretty trivial to avoid.

So essentially...His main unique perk is something you should avoid. What a great character. 

Thank you, thank you for that amazing information that I totally didn't already know and wasn't common knowledge. 

So although it was painfully obvious, but apparently not for some people, I'll re-phrase what I said earlier:

Because THE WEREBEAVER has unavoidable insanity that affects sound and visuals in such a horrible way, THE WEREBEAVER is just an un-pleasurable experience. Which, should go without saying (but I'll say it anyway for those certain people who maybe English isn't their first language, or whatever other reasons they may find difficulty understanding)...Makes the character unplayable. Because without the Werebeaver, Woody has no redeeming qualities other than being good for harvesting wood; which Maxwell is more effective at anyway, so he's essentially worthless.

And in my book, that counts as unplayable.

 

[Toroic]

1 hour ago, TheKingofSquirrels said:

Honestly...His character, because of the way his unavoidable insanity affects sound and visuals, make his character just an un-pleasurable experience. 

Which in my book, counts as unplayable. 

 

56 minutes ago, TheKingofSquirrels said:

So essentially...His main unique perk is something you should avoid. What a great character. 

Thank you, thank you for that amazing information that I totally didn't already know and wasn't common knowledge. 

So although it was painfully obvious, but apparently not for some people, I'll re-phrase what I said earlier:

Because THE WEREBEAVER has unavoidable insanity that affects sound and visuals in such a horrible way, THE WEREBEAVER is just an un-pleasurable experience. Which, should go without saying (but I'll say it anyway for those certain people who maybe English isn't their first language, or whatever other reasons they may find difficulty understanding)...Makes the character unplayable. Because without the Werebeaver, Woody has no redeeming qualities other than being good for harvesting wood; which Maxwell is more effective at anyway, so he's essentially worthless.

And in my book, that counts as unplayable.

 

Your book clearly isn't the dictionary.  Perhaps Santa can bring you one, so you can look up the meaning of words you don't know?

Twice you've said that insanity is unavoidable, and twice you've been wrong (just about that, I've lost count of times you've been wrong that I've witnessed).  Werebeaver loses 90 sanity per minute which means you can easily go werebeaver for short bursts without experiencing insanity (Hey guys, you can also use mods for this!).  In DST it is a penalty form with some situational uses similar to Wolfgang's wimpy form, which has a slower hunger rate and can also be used to get more value out of healing items due to his scaling health.

If a character is made "worthless" by having a penalty form, then Wolfgang is worthless.  If being outclassed makes a character "worthless" then anyone that isn't Wolfgang, Wickerbottom, Wx, or Maxwell are "worthless."

In the past I've often objected to your incorrect use of language, and saying a character is "unplayable" in the strict sense is false.  Even the more reasonable definition of "not viable" you would still be wrong because every character including Wes who is intentionally less efficient at everything can still beat every survival and combat challenge this game presents.

I fully support changes and buffs to Woodie, but even in his current and somewhat disappointing form he's still viable and also has some unique niche strategies and advantages.  For example, he is capable of incredibly fast ruins rushing and is the strongest character for joining a server where flint is scarce (starts with an axe, werebeaver can gnaw boulders for additional flint as well as function as other tools) and is the only character that starts with innate insulation.

You might not get tired of building arguments that collapse when the tiniest amount of critical thinking is applied, but I get really tired of reading them.  The essence of the Dunning-Kruger effect is that to tell whether you're good at something or not requires the same skills as actually being good at it.  The unfortunate result of this is that if you had the capacity to recognize how lacking your arguments were, you'd also have the capacity to produce better ones.

[TheKingofSquirrels]

41 minutes ago, Toros said:

Your book clearly isn't the dictionary.  Perhaps Santa can bring you one, so you can look up the meaning of words you don't know?

42 minutes ago, Toros said:

Twice you've said that insanity is unavoidable, and twice you've been wrong (just about that, I've lost count of times you've been wrong that I've witnessed).  Werebeaver loses 90 sanity per minute which means you can easily go werebeaver for short bursts without experiencing insanity (Hey guys, you can also use mods for this!). 

Ok...Answer this. Is there a way of avoiding insanity without transforming back to Woody?

43 minutes ago, Toros said:

In DST it is a penalty form with some situational uses similar to Wolfgang's wimpy form, which has a slower hunger rate and can also be used to get more value out of healing items due to his scaling health.

This Wolfgang comparison doesn't hold up. Firstly, unlike Wolfgang, the rewards for being in Werebeaver form do not outweigh the penalties. Yes, you mentioned some specific uses where the Werebeaver is useful, but the truth is, those moments are infrequent and, in most cases, turning into the WB is not worth it and is more of a hindrance more than anything, I think we can both agree on that.

The second difference, and this is my main point, playing the Werebeaver is visually and audibly HORRIBLE. The banjo music clashes with the insanity sound effects and creates a sound overload (most Woody players admit to turning these sounds off because they are unbearable). And the sepia tone + the insanity de-colouring effects is just ugly. Wolfgang does not have any such problems. It's not about having a penalty, it's about the fact that the game is unbearable to play. This is why he is unplayable.

51 minutes ago, Toros said:

If a character is made "worthless" by having a penalty form, then Wolfgang is worthless.  If being outclassed makes a character "worthless" then anyone that isn't Wolfgang, Wickerbottom, Wx, or Maxwell are "worthless."

You missed my point entirely. 

53 minutes ago, Toros said:

Wes who is intentionally less efficient at everything can still beat every survival and combat challenge this game presents.

True, but unlike Wes, Woody shouldn't be a challenge. When you think Werebeaver, what do you think? I think unstoppable force of nature. Obviously, he can't be too OP, but the fact that he's just such a weak character doesn't fit with his concept at all (unlike Wes).

55 minutes ago, Toros said:

I fully support changes and buffs to Woodie, but even in his current and somewhat disappointing form he's still viable and also has some unique niche strategies and advantages.  For example, he is capable of incredibly fast ruins rushing and is the strongest character for joining a server where flint is scarce (starts with an axe, werebeaver can gnaw boulders for additional flint as well as function as other tools) and is the only character that starts with innate insulation.

Fair enough.

56 minutes ago, Toros said:

the only character that starts with innate insulation.

Which isn't permanent...Which makes no sense. Given that A) You can't put clothes on in beaver form. B) HE'S COVERED IN FUR. 

57 minutes ago, Toros said:

You might not get tired of building arguments that collapse when the tiniest amount of critical thinking is applied, but I get really tired of reading them. 

Well that didn't happen here, but you're entitled to your opinion.

[Toroic]

3 minutes ago, TheKingofSquirrels said:

1) Ok...Answer this. Is there a way of avoiding insanity without transforming back to Woody?

2) This Wolfgang comparison doesn't hold up. Firstly, unlike Wolfgang, the rewards for being in Werebeaver form do not outweigh the penalties. Yes, you mentioned some specific uses where the Werebeaver is useful, but the truth is, those moments are infrequent and, in most cases, turning into the WB is not worth it and is more of a hindrance more than anything, I think we can both agree on that.

3) The second difference, and this is my main point, playing the Werebeaver is visually and audibly HORRIBLE. The banjo music clashes with the insanity sound effects and creates a sound overload (most Woody players admit to turning these sounds off because they are unbearable). And the sepia tone + the insanity de-colouring effects is just ugly. Wolfgang does not have any such problems. It's not about having a penalty, it's about the fact that the game is unbearable to play. This is why he is unplayable.

You missed my point entirely. 

4) True, but unlike Wes, Woody shouldn't be a challenge. When you think Werebeaver, what do you think? I think unstoppable force of nature. Obviously, he can't be too OP, but the fact that he's just such a weak character doesn't fit with his concept at all (unlike Wes).

Fair enough.

5) Which isn't permanent...Which makes no sense. Given that A) You can't put clothes on in beaver form. B) HE'S COVERED IN FUR. 

6) Well that didn't happen here, but you're entitled to your opinion.

1) That’s like asking how you stay in wimpy form without the speed penalty.  You’re not meant to stay in it and in fact the downsides are intended to encourage you not to stay in it.

2) Yes, it does for WIMPY form.  Wimpy Wolfgang is slower than any other character and does Wes damage or less.

3) Ignoring the obvious option to use mods, you can and should mostly avoid going into werebeaver just like wolfgang should avoid wimpy form.

4) Woodie isn’t a challenge.  He has minor perks but decent stats, easy sanity management and easy to avoid downsides.  I agree that werebeaver is disappointing but Woodie isn’t weak without it and again, easy to avoid.

5) Werebeaver has 240 summer and winter insulation and given it’s intended as a time limited form (though I disagree with the design direction) that’s not a huge barrier.

6) I’d love for you to change that opinion.

[TheKingofSquirrels]

Just now, Toros said:

1) That’s like asking how you stay in wimpy form without the speed penalty.  You’re not meant to stay in it and in fact the downsides are intended to encourage you not to stay in it.

2) Yes, it does for WIMPY form.  Wimpy Wolfgang is slower than any other character and does Wes damage or less.

...So Woody is like Wolfgang, but if he only  the Wimpy form (Werebeaver) to transform to. He has no Mighty Form. That's what I'm saying. 

2 minutes ago, Toros said:

3) Ignoring the obvious option to use mods, you can and should mostly avoid going into werebeaver just like wolfgang should avoid wimpy form.

So where's his perk then? If it's not the Werebeaver, what is his perk? Chopping trees. Maxwell can do better.

Anyway, this is irrelevant, my main point, which you ignored, is this:

26 minutes ago, TheKingofSquirrels said:

The second difference, and this is my main point, playing the Werebeaver is visually and audibly HORRIBLE. The banjo music clashes with the insanity sound effects and creates a sound overload (most Woody players admit to turning these sounds off because they are unbearable). And the sepia tone + the insanity de-colouring effects is just ugly. Wolfgang does not have any such problems. It's not about having a penalty, it's about the fact that the game is unbearable to play. This is why he is unplayable.

 

[Toroic]

2 hours ago, TheKingofSquirrels said:

...So Woody is like Wolfgang, but if he only  the Wimpy form (Werebeaver) to transform to. He has no Mighty Form. That's what I'm saying. 

So where's his perk then? If it's not the Werebeaver, what is his perk? Chopping trees. Maxwell can do better.

Anyway, this is irrelevant, my main point, which you ignored, is this:

 

Wolfgang has penalties in both wimpy and normal form.  Normal form has 1.5x hunger drain, 1.1x sanity loss, and only positive trait is 200 max hp.

Woodie has faster chopping, unbreakable axe, sanity from planting pinecones, 45 innate insulation, bonuses when befriending pigs/bunnymen/rock lobsters, and a situationally useful Werebeaver form.

Werebeaver + insanity is unpleasant visually but that’s super easy to avoid (or use mods, I addressed this).  Woodie is as good as Willow and better than Wilson, Winona and Wes mechanically.  If we’re including SW characters he’s probably better than Warly too.

[TheKingofSquirrels]

14 hours ago, Toros said:

Wolfgang has penalties in both wimpy and normal form.  Normal form has 1.5x hunger drain, 1.1x sanity loss, and only positive trait is 200 max hp.

Woodie has faster chopping, unbreakable axe, sanity from planting pinecones, 45 innate insulation, bonuses when befriending pigs/bunnymen/rock lobsters, and a situationally useful Werebeaver form.

Werebeaver + insanity is unpleasant visually but that’s super easy to avoid (or use mods, I addressed this).  Woodie is as good as Willow and better than Wilson, Winona and Wes mechanically.  If we’re including SW characters he’s probably better than Warly too.

I get your point, but I still disagree. There's just something wrong with the fact that one of the most interesting character mechanics in this game is something you should mostly avoid. Werebeaver shouldn't be the equivalent to Wolfgang's Wimpy form. It should be a useful mechanic.

I understand that you play Woody without ever transforming, but to me, that just seems broken and makes the character unplayable.

[pedregales]

14 hours ago, Toros said:

Wolfgang has penalties in both wimpy and normal form.  Normal form has 1.5x hunger drain, 1.1x sanity loss, and only positive trait is 200 max hp.

Woodie has faster chopping, unbreakable axe, sanity from planting pinecones, 45 innate insulation, bonuses when befriending pigs/bunnymen/rock lobsters, and a situationally useful Werebeaver form.

Werebeaver + insanity is unpleasant visually but that’s super easy to avoid (or use mods, I addressed this).  Woodie is as good as Willow and better than Wilson, Winona and Wes mechanically.  If we’re including SW characters he’s probably better than Warly too.

Comparing Wolfgang and Woodie is very... unwise:

The penalties on Wolfgang's forms are inconsequential because they rely on hunger, which is, despite the name of the game, very easy to manage; and a slightly experienced Wolfgang player will always know to only be in normal form or higher if he is not at base, and be in mighty form if he is definitely going to kill a giant. He does have "penalties", but they are far too easy to manage compared to most other characters.

In the case of Woodie you have to manage a new mechanic: log or transformation meter. The more you chop, the faster you transform: so there is a penalty for something the character has been explicitly designed to do. If your log or transformation meter drops to 0 you start losing health in a similar fashion to hunger, and it can only be filled with logs, twigs and grass; which means Woodie has to consume some of the product he is designed to gather (yet another penalty for his gathering skills) and manage 2 stomachs. Then the werebeaver form is a highly underpowered and not very manageable feature: you deal as much damage as a regular axe, you absorb much less damage than a grass suit, you have no way to improve this, and you receive a penalty of -90 sanity/min (which means in less than 2 minutes you are harassed by nightmare creatures even if you don), but you cannot heal health or sanity while on this form: only log meter; and what are the upsides? Gather 1 extra resource slightly faster than other characters (but gather logs less faster than Woodie himself with Lucy), a 10% speed bonus (which is less than the 25% of the walking cane he cannot use while in this form), he has very good insulation (I mean, he has to as he cannot wear proper gear for the weather), and is not having to care about hunger, and that's it. Now, every full moon you will transform into the werebeaver, you like it or not, and the only way to "avoid" this, is by throwing a bunch of logs on the floor so you can eat them and transform back to Woodie. He is far too complex and difficult to manage to be considered "useful", he is almost as bad as Warly (he is not worst because with Warly you have to take notes of what you have eaten...).

Woodie's downsides are far greater and harder to manage than Wolfgang's. I definitely agree with KingSquirrel that he is "unplayable" in his current state unless you play solo, in the sense that he requires too much maintenance and brings nothing to a team. And no... Winona is better than Woodie "mechanically", much better; she literally has no downsides and instead has only upsides, and her duct tape and faster crafting are far superior than Woodie's gathering skills or the werebeaver. But yeah, Warly is very, very awful...

[Toroic]

32 minutes ago, pedregales said:

Comparing Wolfgang and Woodie is very... unwise:

The penalties on Wolfgang's forms are inconsequential because they rely on hunger, which is, despite the name of the game, very easy to manage; and a slightly experienced Wolfgang player will always know to only be in normal form or higher if he is not at base, and be in mighty form if he is definitely going to kill a giant. He does have "penalties", but they are far too easy to manage compared to most other characters.

In the case of Woodie you have to manage a new mechanic: log or transformation meter. The more you chop, the faster you transform: so there is a penalty for something the character has been explicitly designed to do. If your log or transformation meter drops to 0 you start losing health in a similar fashion to hunger, and it can only be filled with logs, twigs and grass; which means Woodie has to consume some of the product he is designed to gather (yet another penalty for his gathering skills) and manage 2 stomachs. Then the werebeaver form is a highly underpowered and not very manageable feature: you deal as much damage as a regular axe, you absorb much less damage than a grass suit, you have no way to improve this, and you receive a penalty of -90 sanity/min (which means in less than 2 minutes you are harassed by nightmare creatures even if you don), but you cannot heal health or sanity while on this form: only log meter; and what are the upsides? Gather 1 extra resource slightly faster than other characters (but gather logs less faster than Woodie himself with Lucy), a 10% speed bonus (which is less than the 25% of the walking cane he cannot use while in this form), he has very good insulation (I mean, he has to as he cannot wear proper gear for the weather), and is not having to care about hunger, and that's it. Now, every full moon you will transform into the werebeaver, you like it or not, and the only way to "avoid" this, is by throwing a bunch of logs on the floor so you can eat them and transform back to Woodie. He is far too complex and difficult to manage to be considered "useful", he is almost as bad as Warly (he is not worst because with Warly you have to take notes of what you have eaten...).

Woodie's downsides are far greater and harder to manage than Wolfgang's. I definitely agree with KingSquirrel that he is "unplayable" in his current state unless you play solo, in the sense that he requires too much maintenance and brings nothing to a team. And no... Winona is better than Woodie "mechanically", much better; she literally has no downsides and instead has only upsides, and her duct tape and faster crafting are far superior than Woodie's gathering skills or the werebeaver. But yeah, Warly is very, very awful...

...I literally just explained that what you’re saying isn’t true.

You can chop until you transform, gnaw until you transform back with full meter, and then plant pinecones to restore your sanity.  That’s the most efficient way.

You can also avoid transforming during a full moon by going into the caves during it, which prevents the other part of the complaint.

Woodie isn’t hard to play or to manage, and with a moderate amount of skill is roughly middle of the pack in terms of utility and some unique niches.  If you think Winona’s better than he is you’re wrong.

[pedregales]

1 hour ago, Toros said:

...I literally just explained that what you’re saying isn’t true.

You can chop until you transform, gnaw until you transform back with full meter, and then plant pinecones to restore your sanity.  That’s the most efficient way.

You can also avoid transforming during a full moon by going into the caves during it, which prevents the other part of the complaint.

Woodie isn’t hard to play or to manage, and with a moderate amount of skill is roughly middle of the pack in terms of utility and some unique niches.  If you think Winona’s better than he is you’re wrong.

If there are no caves how are you going to stop transforming on a full moon? And in any case, you have to go to the caves before the full moon arrives, and you should only come out of the caves until the full moon is gone for another 20 more days in-game when you are forced again to either go to the caves or drop a stack of logs. The full moon is a thing you have to plan way ahead if you play Woodie.

No matter how much you simplify the issue, Woodie is the most difficult character to play in terms of management and the benefit is way too small to be even considered a useful character (or even a character worth playing other than "just for fun" or a "challenge"). You have to watch out for 2 hunger meters (that require different resources), you have to watch out not chopping too many trees (and in case you do and transform into werebeaver, then start chomping trees until you transform back to Woodie), and also watch out for the full moon; if you are a werebeaver you have to watch your sanity as it depletes excessively fast with no way to heal it while on this form (and then, the best method to restore it if needs be is to have a bunch of pinecones in your hand), also be careful to receive damage because you would need to transform to Woodie in order to heal, if you are on a full moon, be careful as your log meter drops very fast even if you are not chopping.

And yes, Winona is far better than Woodie. For the same functionality as a sewing kit (1 log, 2 hound's tooth, and 8 silk; for 5 uses) she has the trusty tape (3 cut grass, and 1 silk; for 1 use), with 5 trusty tapes you get the same amount of uses than a sewing kit, but you would have saved 1 log, 2 hound's tooth (which means 2 extra tooth traps or blow darts), and even 3 silk, and this thing remains useful for the entirety of the game to keep certain things alive; but the best thing of the trusty tape? In only 1 stack you can have up to 40 uses, while on a sewing kit you can only have 5; which not only makes it cheaper, but also more space efficient. Then you have crafting in half the time, which is pretty amazing, specially if you are going to fight a giant where you can mass produce some gear for the battle in very little time or even when you are chased by some mob were it gives you enough time to craft something to fight and run before being attacked. Woodie's benefit is very poor (seeing as he has to eat the product to do it...) and is easily outclassed by many other things that appear in-game with no need of Maxwell: pigmen (they can easily replicate Maxwell's shadows), deerclops, rook, bearger, and reanimated skeleton (if you have caves). Wilson is another that I would consider "better", but the only thing Wilson offers is beard hair, which is easy to farm if you can get slightly insane fast (specially if you have bunnymen).

[TheKingofSquirrels]

3 hours ago, Toros said:

...I literally just explained that what you’re saying isn’t true.

You can chop until you transform, gnaw until you transform back with full meter, and then plant pinecones to restore your sanity.  That’s the most efficient way.

You can also avoid transforming during a full moon by going into the caves during it, which prevents the other part of the complaint.

Woodie isn’t hard to play or to manage, and with a moderate amount of skill is roughly middle of the pack in terms of utility and some unique niches.  If you think Winona’s better than he is you’re wrong.

[Toroic]

6 hours ago, TheKingofSquirrels said:

I get your point, but I still disagree. There's just something wrong with the fact that one of the most interesting character mechanics in this game is something you should mostly avoid. Werebeaver shouldn't be the equivalent to Wolfgang's Wimpy form. It should be a useful mechanic.

I understand that you play Woody without ever transforming, but to me, that just seems broken and makes the character unplayable.

If you're trying to say that Woodie could use a buff and has poor design philosophy, I agree 100%.  Werebeaver being so limited in use is a huge wasted opportunity.  I get why they changed him from DS as there are logistical concerns and his werebeaver form in singleplayer is absurdly powerful, but they left Wx, Wolfgang, Wickerbottom alone and they were as OP or more in singleplayer + SW.

I actually don't play Woodie without transforming, I cycle his forms to refill the log meter without consuming wood and just plant pinecones after (or I play my Woodie mod that buffs Werebeaver in numerous ways).

Woodie's design sucks but if you mostly stay in human form he's actually pretty ok.  If Maxwell didn't exist he'd be the fastest wood gatherer, and is surprisingly good at ruins rushing.  He's also the best at winter starts and joining servers where the starting area is devoid of flint.  Which is why I keep saying that calling him useless is unreasonable.  Either your definition of useless affects at least 1/3 of the characters, or Woodie is below average but has niche uses.

1 hour ago, pedregales said:

1) If there are no caves how are you going to stop transforming on a full moon?

2) And in any case, you have to go to the caves before the full moon arrives, and you should only come out of the caves until the full moon is gone for another 20 more days in-game when you are forced again to either go to the caves or drop a stack of logs.

3) The full moon is a thing you have to plan way ahead if you play Woodie.

4) No matter how much you simplify the issue, Woodie is the most difficult character to play in terms of management and the benefit is way too small to be even considered a useful character (or even a character worth playing other than "just for fun" or a "challenge"). You have to watch out for 2 hunger meters (that require different resources), you have to watch out not chopping too many trees (and in case you do and transform into werebeaver, then start chomping trees until you transform back to Woodie), and also watch out for the full moon; if you are a werebeaver you have to watch your sanity as it depletes excessively fast with no way to heal it while on this form (and then, the best method to restore it if needs be is to have a bunch of pinecones in your hand), also be careful to receive damage because you would need to transform to Woodie in order to heal, if you are on a full moon, be careful as your log meter drops very fast even if you are not chopping.

5) And yes, Winona is far better than Woodie. For the same functionality as a sewing kit (1 log, 2 hound's tooth, and 8 silk; for 5 uses) she has the trusty tape (3 cut grass, and 1 silk; for 1 use), with 5 trusty tapes you get the same amount of uses than a sewing kit, but you would have saved 1 log, 2 hound's tooth (which means 2 extra tooth traps or blow darts), and even 3 silk, and this thing remains useful for the entirety of the game to keep certain things alive; but the best thing of the trusty tape? In only 1 stack you can have up to 40 uses, while on a sewing kit you can only have 5; which not only makes it cheaper, but also more space efficient. Then you have crafting in half the time, which is pretty amazing, specially if you are going to fight a giant where you can mass produce some gear for the battle in very little time or even when you are chased by some mob were it gives you enough time to craft something to fight and run before being attacked. Woodie's benefit is very poor (seeing as he has to eat the product to do it...) and is easily outclassed by many other things that appear in-game with no need of Maxwell: pigmen (they can easily replicate Maxwell's shadows), deerclops, rook, bearger, and reanimated skeleton (if you have caves). Wilson is another that I would consider "better", but the only thing Wilson offers is beard hair, which is easy to farm if you can get slightly insane fast (specially if you have bunnymen).

1) If you're not the host you could log out for a few seconds, though full moons are a pretty minimal issue anyway.  You eat some logs and then stay in human form the rest of the night with nearly full sanity.

2) Actually, you only have to avoid the phase change, as that's the only time a transformation is triggered.

3) "Way ahead" being 3 seconds to drop your logs?  Most people carry a stack around all the time anyway, and Woodie generally will always have a ton of logs.

4) Without chopping his log meter drains very slowly and hunger is paused while in werebeaver form.  If you want to waste wood you can stay human while chopping trees for a net surplus of logs and log meter, and again most people have a tree farm near their base for easy sources of wood.  It's really not difficult at all and if you stay human you get a lot of sanity back too each time you chop wood.  Without damage being absorbed by the log meter and with the pitiful damage Werebeaver deals it's absolutely not a combat form and for exploration you'll need to dodge shadow monsters.  I don't like the design, but it's not difficult.

5) There's a lot in here, and I'll try to address each point briefly.  That said, I put Woodie in the bottom of middle tier, and Winona just a few spots below him (Middle Tier being Wigfrid, Wendy, Webber, Woodie and Bottom Tier being Willow, Winona, Wilson, and Wes) so there's a certain amount of splitting hairs going on.  Given that there's a weekly delivery of hound's teeth I seriously question the value of saving more of them.  I personally always have at least half a stack extra and I can't imagine a situation where you would need to sew more than 5 times while away from your base.  There's a limited number of items that are worth sewing in most games (Beefalo hat,  Tam, Hibearnation vest, Eyebrella, maybe desert goggles in an oasis base, arguably a heat rock) and most don't show up until winter.  I've never been in a situation where 1 sewing kit/2 people didn't last an entire season.  Her faster crafting is convenient but even if you craft 10 items that's only 5 seconds saved.  Given that DST bosses are very predictable in when they arrive I can't imagine a situation where half a second per item saved makes the difference between life or death.  Woodie being able to ruins rush and ability to provide a lot of wood is more valuable than sewing kits imo.  Blowdarts are strong but expensive and rarely used in DST.  Similarly, you don't need a sewing kit until mid-winter at the earliest by which time you likely have enough for a good number of tooth traps and enough for a sewing kit or two with teeth to spare.  Hound mounds also exist if you wanted to farm them.

Also, Wilson is the second mechanically worst character in the game because everyone can get insane quickly via wormholes and kill beardlings/beardlords or if you really wanted a lot of beard hair shadow splumonkies can be farmed in a number of ways.  Beard hair is only used for effigies (outclassed by amulets, and red gems have few other uses besides purple gems and amulets) and Bernie, and there's significant diminishing returns on additional Bernies after the first one.