'Heat' Not Included

[Valisse]

Hello everyone,

As i'm sure you all solved the oxygen problem by using steam geyser with Electrolyzer. great job.

But now we are facing other severe problem ----- Heat !

By view many youtube and articles, I fond that people using Wheezewort and hydrogen to cool down the water and they say "it's worked!"

But I say, it just using some calculate error by the game to generate low temperature. they are not actually cooling. depend on law of conservation of energy, your overall heat and cooling is not balanced.

Now I will explain the issues.

for the major mission of the game is survival forever by transformation of element form and cycling . for example, natural gas can be use for generator, and then pop out polluted water, and then using Fertilizer Synthesizer to solve these polluted water to natural gas again.

there are one things to break the cycling which is heat! if you want survival forever, you must spend water or use machines which cost electricity. this mean, you can't avoid heat generate. in tackle to remove the heat or cooling your base, the game provided many building for player but they actually not remove heat form the world, instated, they need lot of electricity and to generate electricity, you will generate more heat. 

there are one thing which is actually cooling---- Wheezewort  https://oxygennotincluded.gamepedia.com/Wheezewort

it will cooling 5C°/sec and do not generate heat or require anything that generate heat. It's actually remove the heat form the world. so, yeah we can solve the heat problem by using Wheezewort because there are totally have 17-20 Wheezewort on the map, it should be cool down 85C°/sec in overall.

What a dream!!! without a doubt, if you just have 3 dups, one Electrolyzer, one Carbon Skimmer, one battery and two Manual Generator, your overall heat output will less than overall cooling. but who gonna play with 3 dups and feel machines forever ??

in fact, if you have a large base, and you want to enjoy all game contents, buildings, oil, farm and so on, your overall heat output will much more than overall cooling speed, depend on law of conservation of energy (if the game design following the law). any geyser, machines, generator, will generate heat. for survival forever, you must balance your heat generate and cooling or you will die by heat, it just time problem.

all of the method for cooling in youtube or forums, they just lie you, or just using calculate error by game. Base on law of conservation of energy, they are not actually remove heat or their output and cooling is not balance. 

I hope the game designer can also aware the problem,  provide a method to cooling overall heat to make 'big house' player survival forever possible. adjust the balancing of necessary element. of course, if you can fix the calculate error it will be perfect. 

 

[Octyabr]

Well, the problem is that currently the game doesn't follow the law of conservation of energy, as you stated heat (I would prefer energy) gets 'created' in every machine and in every geyser; and gets 'destroyed' by weezeworts aquatunner and the thermoregulator.

Consider the following scenario: an air conditioner cooling itself in an isolated system. The total energy of such system wouldn't change and it's temperature would remain constant. But in-game such system (pump + thermoregulator + vent) would reach 0K rather quickly. 

That's what I used to make liquid oxygen once:

Spoiler

 

[Le0n1des]

 

54 minutes ago, Valisse said:

depend on law of conservation of energy

That's the whole point. Some aspects of physics are completely broken due to the way the simulation is done... Only a single element can occupy a 1m^3 tile -> no way to implement PV=nRT, and great simplification to concept of pressure -> no way to handle heat convection and greatly simplified gas movement and heat movement in gas. You can instantly cool a whole tank of high pressure gas by having a layer of lighter gas above and cooling just the 2 tiles the gases interchange with low pressure. You can instantly cool a tank of liquid by cooling the top layer when it has only several grams and so on 

[ShamPeiN]

you forgot something

you can actually isolate yourself from heat with insulated tiles (wont stop just slows it down) or even better, vacuum, you can build a layer of vacuum with building + shape tiles, deleting middle one, this still works, even vacuum rooms with water lock entrance

then there is the biome temperature reset on reloading the game

most i seen is belaaneer few patches back run around 900 cycles, dupes getting magma heat back, so farms were broken down, so food was scarce, he still managed to hold up, reloading game solved the heat issues cause reseted biomes temperature a bit, cause there were some errors on biome borders. the other thing is ice biome heavy maps, got much more cold  places so too cold maps are actually possible

the other way is manually cooling down the map, with hydrofans which uses water, but water is plenty with geysers and even dupes generate some water using toilets

[Risu]

Wouldn't expect much to be done about this flaw until radiation is added. Then heat can be sent to the surface and out into space.
Until then, we have to deal with heat accumulating in our little box of heavily insulated asteroid. Cheaty plants that delete heat just as easily as machines and plants create heat from nothing will work just fine until then.
 

[Ciderblock]

7 hours ago, Le0n1des said:

 

That's the whole point. Some aspects of physics are completely broken due to the way the simulation is done... Only a single element can occupy a 1m^3 tile -> no way to implement PV=nRT, and great simplification to concept of pressure -> no way to handle heat convection and greatly simplified gas movement and heat movement in gas. You can instantly cool a whole tank of high pressure gas by having a layer of lighter gas above and cooling just the 2 tiles the gases interchange with low pressure. You can instantly cool a tank of liquid by cooling the top layer when it has only several grams and so on 

It's true that this game has an extremely simplified model of pressure, especially as it relates to temperature.

However, I don't think the fluid heat deletion bug (small amounts of cold fluid can cool much larger amounts of hot fluid than they should be able to), has much to do with this. I'm honestly not even sure why it is there. It's not hard to enforce that your "heat update" function should preserve (up to roundoff error) the total heat energy embedded in the system.

More on-topic: as Risu said, without an input source of external energy and an output sink of heat, enforcing all conservation laws would turn this into The Second Law of Thermodynamics: The Game where the whole game after the very beginning is basically trying to delay heat death. That's just bad game design.

[Valisse]

Thanks for everyone's reply, I hope the game designer can view this post and take our idea for future game design.

[PhailRaptor]

Another thing that you're missing is the buildings that have arbitrary fixed temperature outputs.  Regardless of what temperature the machine is, or what temperature the source materials are, Electrolyzers for example will ALWAYS put out Hydrogen and Oxygen at, what, 70 C?  Showers and Lavatories do the same thing at a lower temperature, as I would imagine Sinks do as well.

 

Yeah, it feels like an exploit, but it's an intentional thing, so have at it.

[NanoD]

Even if heat would be a issue. You could always use thermo regulator. Use water to cool it down and then when the water is abow 90C you pump it in to Electrolyzer. Boom you have lost ton of heat. 

Wheezewort and hydrogen to cool down your base is ridiculously efficient. But to cool down water is not, if you are not using heat deletion bug(feature).  

But why would u cool it down?. You can use it directly in lavatory's and Electrolyzers. 

[clickrush]

The electrolyzer heat consumption makes a lot of sense because it does an endothermic reaction.

[Ciderblock]

18 hours ago, clickrush said:

The electrolyzer heat consumption makes a lot of sense because it does an endothermic reaction.

Not really. If you do electrolysis in real life, you put a lot of electrical energy (which is work, not heat) in and get hot gas out. If you split water spontaneously, then you are right, you would actually get colder gas than the liquid you started with. But making it happen spontaneously would require you to start with extremely hot steam (something like 1700K), not ~90C water.

[chemie]

It's not just energy..

It's mass.  You can burn coal and gas without oxygen.  It's a game.

As to your heat issue, keep heat generators outside insulated base or use heat removal tools outside of base.  It is easy to keep base at 25C for thousands of cycles.