Is the number of Geysers capped in the new update?

[0xygen]

it only makes me restart  the game if I found geyser far away.

Being able to strike the geyser anywhere I want, at specific Biome for specific geyser, would be great

maybe we will need new research such as Boring machine

 

[BlueLance]

Funnily enough there were talks between members on the forums about different ways they could implement geysers and something similar popped up.

[Coolthulhu]

On 8/27/2017 at 1:24 AM, Lifegrow said:

Honestly - I hate this, and i'm hoping to god that some element of random gen will be brought in soon. For me it's really extinguished any desire to go exploring - because I already know exactly what i'm going to get.

Opposite for me.

I hated getting terrible worlds and having to rush exploration to see if the world is salvageable or just plain worthless. Every screen explored without a geyser was another letdown.

[BlueLance]

57 minutes ago, Coolthulhu said:

Opposite for me.

I hated getting terrible worlds and having to rush exploration to see if the world is salvageable or just plain worthless. Every screen explored without a geyser was another letdown.

I havnt explored but I happened to find a steam geysers just left of my starter biome. Which means I can spend more time setting up shop, before I finally go to town looking for others.

[Cilya]

On 25/08/2017 at 9:39 PM, Risu said:

Edit: If you used both steam geysers for farming you could farm 62 bristle blossoms.

I didn't react when I first read that. It means that you can feed 15 dupes with two geyser.

... my colony is already 31 dupes. By duplicating them, I've sentenced them to death.

[Segato]

2 hours ago, Cilya said:

I didn't react when I first read that. It means that you can feed 15 dupes with two geyser.

... my colony is already 31 dupes. By duplicating them, I've sentenced them to death.

Meal Wood is the new solution, you dont even need to cook it. And sometimes Mushrooms depending on your Dups stress.

[Whispershade]

4 minutes ago, Segato said:

Meal Wood is the new solution, you dont even need to cook it. And sometimes Mushrooms depending on your Dups stress.

Well, I would say that mealwood being the forever food is rather backwards and is itself a problem. Food balance is broken and all over the place. Mushrooms can provide sufficient food at maximum dupe expectation if you have enough pufts to produce the slime indefinitely. But there is also a very large quantity of slime on the map. The fact that food can be handled without ever moving to hydroponics tiles is perhaps an indictment to the problems of the research ladder and more advanced foods.

People in this thread also talk about converting polluted water to fresh water by boiling. And I wonder if there is any mass lost in the process.

[Cilya]

Yeah, sure, but it doesn't meet food quality requirement of the dupes. I have another problem with that : it's too simple, there is not much more to do for my current colony. At least, with AU I was able to setup a colony providing Pepper bread to 50 dupes which required some caution with the polluted water needed to irrigate. I wasn't using fertilizer and irrigation for the sleet wheat though... but now... sleet wheat as the same production than "normal" rating then but requires water and fertilizer for this. I can do the math several times, there is no way I can feed a colony of the same size with pepper bread. And I'm not even talking about an infinite play : there is just not enough water on the map to grow plants either for a medium term perspective.

[Ciderblock]

1 hour ago, Whispershade said:

People in this thread also talk about converting polluted water to fresh water by boiling. And I wonder if there is any mass lost in the process.

I think boiling still leaves dirt behind, which I think accounts for the mass loss.

However, heat is lost. The specific heat of steam is dramatically lower than that of polluted water, so it contains less heat than the polluted water did. The dirt can't possibly make up the difference. And of course there is no heat of evaporation/condensation.

[Whispershade]

22 minutes ago, Ciderblock said:

I think boiling still leaves dirt behind, which I think accounts for the mass loss.

So if you send 1000g of water to an airscrubber, get 1000g back as polluted water (with 300g of Carbon destroyed) you boil that 1000g of polluted water, gain some amount of dirt and lose some amount of water you're losing water from the system and gaining dirt?

[Risu]

5 minutes ago, Whispershade said:

So if you send 1000g of water to an airscrubber, get 1000g back as polluted water (with 300g of Carbon destroyed) you boil that 1000g of polluted water, gain some amount of dirt and lose some amount of water you're losing water from the system and gaining dirt?

1000g polluted water creates 990g steam and 10g dirt.
 

[Whispershade]

13 minutes ago, Risu said:

1000g polluted water creates 990g steam and 10g dirt.
 

Thanks, I was super curious about that but didn't know an easy way to work it out without setting up debug mode.

Without lavatories, steam purification cycles will eventually break. Now I've also been curious about autonomous steam processing without player input.  You can't really have your dupes collect it because they'll get scalded and that requires player input to heal them. I suppose if you have a tall enough polluted water basin any tiles of dirt that form would break to pressure and you would just end up with an accumulation of hot dirt at the bottom as thermal mass.

[Ciderblock]

1 hour ago, Whispershade said:

Thanks, I was super curious about that but didn't know an easy way to work it out without setting up debug mode.

Without lavatories, steam purification cycles will eventually break. Now I've also been curious about autonomous steam processing without player input.  You can't really have your dupes collect it because they'll get scalded and that requires player input to heal them. I suppose if you have a tall enough polluted water basin any tiles of dirt that form would break to pressure and you would just end up with an accumulation of hot dirt at the bottom as thermal mass.

I think aquatuner systems can be tailored to not break. You will very rarely need to shut everything down to sweep up dirt, but you shouldn't suffer overheat damage with the right setup.

If you meant to say that a carbon skimmer + boiler system is not closed loop, then sure, it loses 1% of its mass each cycle. But why would you want to run anything closed loop anyway? Since the introduction of geysers in TU, there has been no real incentive to run things closed loop. Just bring geyser water into the system as required.

[Whispershade]

15 hours ago, Ciderblock said:

If you meant to say that a carbon skimmer + boiler system is not closed loop, then sure, it loses 1% of its mass each cycle. But why would you want to run anything closed loop anyway?

I don't particularly, but people are talking about a water boiling purification loop to deal with a reduction in steam geysers as if there would be no mass lost. Now lavs add water back into the system but they certainly dont compensate for other water needs.

[Michi01]

17 hours ago, Ciderblock said:

I think aquatuner systems can be tailored to not break. You will very rarely need to shut everything down to sweep up dirt, but you shouldn't suffer overheat damage with the right setup.

I think a thermo switch might suffice for that

[Ciderblock]

1 hour ago, Whispershade said:

I don't particularly, but people are talking about a water boiling purification loop to deal with a reduction in steam geysers as if there would be no mass lost. Now lavs add water back into the system but they certainly dont compensate for other water needs.

If the calculation I saw on Reddit is correct, the mean water output (counting steam) of one steam geyser is 4.2 kg/s, or 2520 kg/cycle. If you don't shower or irrigate, I think that's at least 20 dupes of water, seeing as you need 67.5 kg to breathe and 5 kg to use the lavatory. And that's just dumping your polluted water in a hole. Not showering might be more of a problem whenever they get around to rebuffing germs, though.

So you don't even really need the boiler anyway until you're building quite the megabase.

[Ciderblock]

15 minutes ago, Michi01 said:

I think a thermo switch might suffice for that

Really I think you want a batch boiler for totally unrelated reasons, and with a batch boiler you're shutting everything down after a batch anyways, so it's not a big deal to sweep up the dirt when you do so. Do batches of 10000 kg of polluted water and you get 100 kg of dirt, which won't be big enough to form a block even if it were in one spot.

[Whispershade]

6 hours ago, Ciderblock said:

If you don't shower or irrigate, I think that's at least 20 dupes of water,

Irrigation is the hitch. The whole issue around water revolves around the considerable irrigation requirements of hydroponically grown foods. Though, if you use a natural gas generator loop you need to feed water into that system. About 2kg/s per natural gas geyser if you maximize it.

Regarding my comments about a water boiler purification system.  I am specifically curious an autonomous system that doesn't require player interaction to regulate. Something Dupes can maintain on their own if they need to work it at all.

[Ciderblock]

1 hour ago, Whispershade said:

Irrigation is the hitch. The whole issue around water revolves around the considerable irrigation requirements of hydroponically grown foods.

I don't see the issue with hydroponics, at least not right now. Maybe after the mealwood nerf.

1 hour ago, Whispershade said:

Though, if you use a natural gas generator loop you need to feed water into that system. About 2kg/s per natural gas geyser if you maximize it.

On the other hand, NG + water -> NG generator + carbon skimmer -> more polluted water than the water you put in. So with a boiler you can turn an NG geyser into a hacked together steam geyser. I'm not sure whether the NG generator can actually power the boiler, though. I'm also not sure what fraction of a steam geyser this actually gives back at max throughput (though this would be easy to calculate).

1 hour ago, Whispershade said:

Regarding my comments about a water boiler purification system.  I am specifically curious an autonomous system that doesn't require player interaction to regulate. Something Dupes can maintain on their own if they need to work it at all.

I'm skeptical. Dupes don't even sweep autonomously unless they need the material for something, and a boiler will definitely require sweeping to avoid entombing the machinery in actual dirt blocks. Also, the amount of adjustment between each batch that would be required would be quite small. Just sliding the vent flow rate up and down, issuing sweep orders, and maybe locking/unlocking a door. That's it. The concern is how frequently batches have to be run, which is really related to how big batches can actually be and how wide you can make your tank.

[Coolthulhu]

2 hours ago, Ciderblock said:

I'm skeptical. Dupes don't even sweep autonomously unless they need the material for something, and a boiler will definitely require sweeping to avoid entombing the machinery in actual dirt blocks. Also, the amount of adjustment between each batch that would be required would be quite small. Just sliding the vent flow rate up and down, issuing sweep orders, and maybe locking/unlocking a door. That's it. The concern is how frequently batches have to be run, which is really related to how big batches can actually be and how wide you can make your tank.

I think a fully automatic system is possible, though it would require a careful design.

Evaporating pWater doesn't drop tiles of dirt, but rather an item "glob" of dirt. The problem is, item-dirt turns into tile-sand above certain temperature. It's easy to notice when dumping pWater on magma biome: there are no dirt tiles, but there are sand tiles as small as few grams.

By only heating the water through gas/liquid pipes and not direct contact with aquatuner, the temperature could be controlled well enough to keep it below temperature of sand conversion.

As far as I recall, dupes can pick items through diagonals, meaning that dupes could remove the dirt globs from the system. However diagonal access would imply having only 1 tile thick floor, meaning lower "batch" size.

[Whispershade]

3 hours ago, Ciderblock said:

I don't see the issue with hydroponics, at least not right now. Maybe after the mealwood nerf.

No kidding. The issue is some people expect the mealwood situation to change or don't want to rely on such an obviously broken scheme. The discussion is about the viability of large colonies on advanced foodstuffs that match or exceed dupe expectations.

3 hours ago, Ciderblock said:

On the other hand, NG + water -> NG generator + carbon skimmer -> more polluted water than the water you put in. So with a boiler you can turn an NG geyser into a hacked together steam geyser. I'm not sure whether the NG generator can actually power the boiler, though. I'm also not sure what fraction of a steam geyser this actually gives back at max throughput (though this would be easy to calculate).

A tiny fraction. You're basically sacrificing 5.333 Natural Gas generators for grams of water.

A Natural Gas Generator power loop requires you send the polluted water into a bank of fertilizer factories to build a virtuous loop. This includes both the generators own byproduct as well as the air scrubber's output. From a single natural gas geyser you can support 16 fertilizer factories, 7 generators, and 2 air scrubbers running fulltime. This requires the consumption of 2kg/s of fresh water to power.

If you're going to try and extract water, then you want to support just what the gas geyser alone can support, because you will never get more water out of the loop than feeding into it. So that leaves you with 112.45g/s of polluted water from the 1.666 generators you can operate. And feeding 458.31g/s of clean water to produce 458.31g/s of polluted water to scrub the carbon. If you purify it with boiling that gives you at total of 565.05g/s of clean water combined. 458.31g/s goes back into the scrubbers, leaving you with 106.74g/s of clean water surplus.

[Whispershade]

10 minutes ago, Coolthulhu said:

As far as I recall, dupes can pick items through diagonals,

That was fixed.

[Ciderblock]

9 hours ago, Coolthulhu said:

I think a fully automatic system is possible, though it would require a careful design.

Evaporating pWater doesn't drop tiles of dirt, but rather an item "glob" of dirt. The problem is, item-dirt turns into tile-sand above certain temperature. It's easy to notice when dumping pWater on magma biome: there are no dirt tiles, but there are sand tiles as small as few grams.

By only heating the water through gas/liquid pipes and not direct contact with aquatuner, the temperature could be controlled well enough to keep it below temperature of sand conversion.

As far as I recall, dupes can pick items through diagonals, meaning that dupes could remove the dirt globs from the system. However diagonal access would imply having only 1 tile thick floor, meaning lower "batch" size.

Doesn't item-dirt also turn into tile-dirt above certain mass? That was my concern. Preventing sand formation shouldn't be a big deal as far as I know.

Whispershade: a 40th is not exactly a tiny fraction, but I get your point. 2.05 steam geysers is not that much better than just 2 unless you want an absurdly huge base.

[Whispershade]

40 minutes ago, Ciderblock said:

Whispershade: a 40th is not exactly a tiny fraction, but I get your point. 2.05 steam geysers is not that much better than just 2 unless you want an absurdly huge base.

It isn't even enough water to fully sustain a single dupe in oxygen through electrolyizers and you lose like 2.5kws for it. And yeah, I'd absolutely call 1/40th a tiny fraction!

[Saturnus]

13 hours ago, Whispershade said:

... from the 1.666 generators you can operate.

Note that geyser output is now 150g/s on average, so it's 2.5 NGGs per geyser.

If you build a NG geyser chamber with 3 NGG and 2 fertilizer makers you can run the 3 NGGs constantly and have a miniscule PW surplus of 3.75g/s