EuedeAdodooedoe Posted July 14, 2016 Share Posted July 14, 2016 16 minutes ago, GiddyGuy said: Get a better internet provider. :^) What? The one I have is pretty good as it stands, in comparison to all the rest that are available, that is. And how is it their fault anyway? Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/68851-simple-solution-for-the-griefing/page/2/#findComment-792632 Share on other sites More sharing options...
EuedeAdodooedoe Posted July 14, 2016 Share Posted July 14, 2016 16 minutes ago, GiddyGuy said: Get a better internet provider. :^) What? The one I have is pretty good as it stands, in comparison to all the rest that are available, that is. And how is it their fault anyway? Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/68851-simple-solution-for-the-griefing/page/2/#findComment-792633 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faintly Macabre Posted July 14, 2016 Share Posted July 14, 2016 Can we please commit to not handling griefing issues with fundamental gameplay changes? I feel like that hasn't worked out so hot in the past. Those of us with the good sense not to expect to be able to play on completely unattended servers without issue don't want fire mechanics to change or hammers to require silly components or for PvP to be always on but "very awkward" or any of this other crap. Vote kick now locks the target out of the server for ten minutes by default; tack emptying the inventory onto that and I don't know what more you can reasonably ask for. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/68851-simple-solution-for-the-griefing/page/2/#findComment-792671 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diezen Posted July 14, 2016 Share Posted July 14, 2016 4 hours ago, TheHalcyonOne said: Can we please commit to not handling griefing issues with fundamental gameplay changes? I feel like that hasn't worked out so hot in the past. Those of us with the good sense not to expect to be able to play on completely unattended servers without issue don't want fire mechanics to change or hammers to require silly components or for PvP to be always on but "very awkward" or any of this other crap. Vote kick now locks the target out of the server for ten minutes by default; tack emptying the inventory onto that and I don't know what more you can reasonably ask for. There could be a way to flag someone for griefing, though coding this would be probably more complicated than it sounds. But if there was a way for a player to be flagged to not be able to play on Social/Cooperative set servers by having burned an unreasonable amount of structures on multiple servers (completely unreasonable to be flagged for an accident or two from normal play), could be a possible solution. Ofc they'll just find other ways to grief, but taking care of the easiest way of griefing would be a start... They just constantly server hop and kick evade too, maybe like how Souls handle people who force disconnect. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/68851-simple-solution-for-the-griefing/page/2/#findComment-792728 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asparagus Posted July 15, 2016 Share Posted July 15, 2016 6 hours ago, Diezen said: There could be a way to flag someone for griefing, though coding this would be probably more complicated than it sounds. But if there was a way for a player to be flagged to not be able to play on Social/Cooperative set servers by having burned an unreasonable amount of structures on multiple servers (completely unreasonable to be flagged for an accident or two from normal play), could be a possible solution. Ofc they'll just find other ways to grief, but taking care of the easiest way of griefing would be a start... They just constantly server hop and kick evade too, maybe like how Souls handle people who force disconnect. You see, the thing about other people having the power to flag others as grievers is that it can and will be abused... imagine someone joining a public server and this group of people want the server all to themselves... this innocent player comes along and plays for a while and suddenly he's flagged as a griever for nothing... If you're going to put a tracker on their accounts, that would probably be linked to their klei id or steam id and then Klei would have to investigate the occurrence if that player was indeed being malicious which "ain't nobody got time fo dat". I mean really... Klei will not and should not police the servers... I do not want another Willow remake-nerf (thanks to @TheHalcyonOne for reminding us of that) Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/68851-simple-solution-for-the-griefing/page/2/#findComment-792869 Share on other sites More sharing options...
cezarica Posted July 15, 2016 Share Posted July 15, 2016 Having game developers from Klei policing their own servers is counter productive, instead I was thinking that having a hand full of trustworthy members of the community report people that have only bad intentions and don't really want to enjoy the game but only ruin other people fun, meaning zero false positive reports, then they should do something about it in a way or another. Punishing (ban) that said person on ALL public servers for a certain amount of time, and if this person returns after just expired punishment and continues from where he left then increase the ban time or make it permanent, up to them to decide. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/68851-simple-solution-for-the-griefing/page/2/#findComment-792914 Share on other sites More sharing options...
EuedeAdodooedoe Posted July 15, 2016 Share Posted July 15, 2016 17 hours ago, TheHalcyonOne said: Can we please commit to not handling griefing issues with fundamental gameplay changes? I feel like that hasn't worked out so hot in the past. Those of us with the good sense not to expect to be able to play on completely unattended servers without issue don't want fire mechanics to change or hammers to require silly components or for PvP to be always on but "very awkward" or any of this other crap. Vote kick now locks the target out of the server for ten minutes by default; tack emptying the inventory onto that and I don't know what more you can reasonably ask for. Changes need to be made where changes need to be made; you can't "prevent griefing in the first place" otherwise. Only after the damage has been done. And the changes that were made to DST in terms of game mechanics in comparison to DS, I actually find to be better fit for multiplayer. If you're against the idea of changing game mechanics, well, don't complain when some a-hole burns down your base next time. Okay? Sound good? Okay. Seriously, I don't understand all of this "but muh mechanics!!!!11!1!" ********. If an issue can only be dealt with by hurting your feelings for changing the game's mechanics, then let it happen. What do you think is more important here; the ability to do something you'll never do on purpose (e.g. burn down your base) or stopping people from burning down your base so that you and everyone else who suffers from this doesn't have to complain about it anymore? And really, you're saying gtfo to the what currently seems like the most found way of dealing with things. Think of all the solutions we have so far and weigh their pros and cons, such like: Banning - (pros) removed griefers from a server for a long time or completely (cons) still allows for some griefing to happen before the griefer gets banned. Vote-kicking - (pros) remove griefers from a server for a short period of time (cons) still allows for some griefing to happen before the griefer gets banned, can be abused by griefers. Rollback - (pros) undoes griefer work (cons) can potentially delet progress, hence time spent during the days during/before griefing gets wasted, can be abused Console commands - (pros) can deal with various griefing methods, such as looting and base destruction (cons) is technically cheating and can be abused by the server host/admins as well as in terms of things like looting a griefer's inventory, this cannot be done once they have left the server. Mechanics that let you kill off griefers (you can attack a griefer once they do a certain action for a certain period of time and they cannot fight back) - (pros) could potentially stop people from griefing and can result in less griefing occurring (cons) PvP in PvE and I don't think griefers care if they die PvP mechanics in PvE - (pros) basically none (cons) PvE = PvP now, pretty much. Changing mechanics to stop griefing pretty much completely - (pros) pretty much stops all griefing (cons) but muh mechanics *sob* So many things have been changed from DST when content was being ported from one to another. If things stayed the same, it simply would not work well at all. Changes must be made because this is multiplayer and whining "but muh mechanics" just makes one seem pathetic. Sorry, but I can't stand this non-reason, I simply cannot. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/68851-simple-solution-for-the-griefing/page/2/#findComment-792968 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asparagus Posted July 15, 2016 Share Posted July 15, 2016 1 hour ago, EuedeAdodooedoe said: Seriously, I don't understand all of this "but muh mechanics!!!!11!1!" ********. If an issue can only be dealt with by hurting your feelings for changing the game's mechanics, then let it happen. What do you think is more important here; the ability to do something you'll never do on purpose (e.g. burn down your base) or stopping people from burning down your base so that you and everyone else who suffers from this doesn't have to complain about it anymore? As I recall, you suggested something that basically makes burning impossible... like things not catching fire at all... 22 hours ago, EuedeAdodooedoe said: (e.g. structures not being possible to burn, items/structures/objects that would cause a chain reaction to not be possible to burn, not being able to drop down an item next to a structure/item/object that is already burning/smouldering so that no chain reaction can be continued, not being able to hit mobs via fire dart, fire staff or torch whilst they're quite close to a structure RIP Summer... RIP Ice Fling-o-matic... that's too much... grieving aside, that just made the game boring... charcoal would be impossible to get... (I guess the few burned Spiky Trees in the Dragonfly Arena would be more valuable than thulecite) Try a less... "extreme" way of nerfing stuff... 1 hour ago, EuedeAdodooedoe said: So many things have been changed from DST when content was being ported from one to another. If things stayed the same, it simply would not work well at all. Changes must be made because this is multiplayer and whining "but muh mechanics" just makes one seem pathetic. Sorry, but I can't stand this non-reason, I simply cannot. One could say you're the one whining... all this talk about changing a lot of things just so you don't cry about your burned science machine... If one wants to avoid grievers, one should play in a server with a password and play with friends who they know won't burn down stuff... that simple... Be glad that they added smoldering instead of the old insta-catch-a-fiya deal with single-player... Scenario regarding the vote kick issue: Want to make a world that lasts indefinitely in a public server that you yourself don't own? What about the people who want a fresh start and play casually? You have just taken away their rights... what if a group of people gains a monopoly on the server that they don't own? Again, sure, game changes to decrease the power of grievers is good... but totally ripping out integral parts of the game just makes it look like the grievers won... "Ha! They couldn't stop us so they took it out! What else can we make them take out?!" <_< I could go with the hammer thing... like increase the number of hits a structure has to take before it gets destroyed... sure... that could buy you time to do... what exactly? <.< But what if you want to move this chest you placed here over there? *20 smacks later* Fek, let's just burn it and get some of its loot plus charcoal... *completely wooden chest is immune to fire*... T_T well fudge..." <_< Again, I'm not opposing changes... but we need smart changes... Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/68851-simple-solution-for-the-griefing/page/2/#findComment-792990 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheTraditionalGentleman Posted July 15, 2016 Share Posted July 15, 2016 I must have lucked out so far, because I'm yet to encounter any griefers on any server that I've played on. But still, if any changes are made to the game, I definitely agree that they need to be implemented in a smart way. There is no point in making everything so awkward and cumbersome to use that the decent (i.e most) players suffer. I could see having walls take longer to smash (and would actually like to see this for pvp reasons) and like the idea of locks, but things like making objects immune to fire sound like a terrible idea. I don't want to live in some crazy, post apocalyptic world where like @asparagus said, 1 hour ago, Asparagus said: charcoal would be impossible to get... (I guess the few burned Spiky Trees in the Dragonfly Arena would be more valuable than thulecite) If changes are added I personally think they should implemented be by possibly tweaking things, and then in a reasonable manner, or maybe adding some more items (I'm always a fan of that), but not by turning DST into some giant coddle fest, where everything is so griefer-proof that as a result it is just unplayable. Like some other people have said, if you really want to avoid greifers, make a private or password protected server. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/68851-simple-solution-for-the-griefing/page/2/#findComment-793012 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faintly Macabre Posted July 15, 2016 Share Posted July 15, 2016 2 hours ago, EuedeAdodooedoe said: don't complain when some a-hole burns down your base next time. Okay? Sound good? Okay. Please look over my posting history and see if you can find some instance of me complaining about griefers. Can't find anything? Are you sure you looked over it all? Okay. We seem to have some pretty serious differences of opinion, you and I. I certainly don't think neutering fires is the most "found way of dealing with things," and when last I checked the thread you originally suggested it in, very few others did. We also seem to have vastly different ideas of what's whining, or what's pathetic. To me, whining isn't making a single post saying "hey let's not neuter the dangers of a game that's supposed to be a cold-hearted ***** to you". It looks to me a lot more like one person racking up dozens of posts over the course of a couple of weeks crying about some instances of some jerk lighting up some of his stuff and expecting the game's fundamentals to be turned upside down so his widdle feewings never have to go through that again. But by all means, keep crusading for these nonsensical changes. I'm less worried about you getting your way than just some reasonable minds not using their brain power on finding solutions that aren't stupid, because I know Klei is looking at these suggestions of yours and not even slowing down to consider. And at the end of the day, I don't much care what the only guy on the forum with an (obnoxiously) animated avatar ****posting with small text and dumb Undertale clips and images can't stand. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/68851-simple-solution-for-the-griefing/page/2/#findComment-793021 Share on other sites More sharing options...
EuedeAdodooedoe Posted July 15, 2016 Share Posted July 15, 2016 2 hours ago, Asparagus said: As I recall, you suggested something that basically makes burning impossible... like things not catching fire at all... RIP Summer... RIP Ice Fling-o-matic... that's too much... grieving aside, that just made the game boring... charcoal would be impossible to get... (I guess the few burned Spiky Trees in the Dragonfly Arena would be more valuable than thulecite) Try a less... "extreme" way of nerfing stuff... One could say you're the one whining... all this talk about changing a lot of things just so you don't cry about your burned science machine... If one wants to avoid grievers, one should play in a server with a password and play with friends who they know won't burn down stuff... that simple... Be glad that they added smoldering instead of the old insta-catch-a-fiya deal with single-player... Scenario regarding the vote kick issue: Want to make a world that lasts indefinitely in a public server that you yourself don't own? What about the people who want a fresh start and play casually? You have just taken away their rights... what if a group of people gains a monopoly on the server that they don't own? Again, sure, game changes to decrease the power of grievers is good... but totally ripping out integral parts of the game just makes it look like the grievers won... "Ha! They couldn't stop us so they took it out! What else can we make them take out?!" <_< I could go with the hammer thing... like increase the number of hits a structure has to take before it gets destroyed... sure... that could buy you time to do... what exactly? <.< But what if you want to move this chest you placed here over there? *20 smacks later* Fek, let's just burn it and get some of its loot plus charcoal... *completely wooden chest is immune to fire*... T_T well fudge..." <_< Again, I'm not opposing changes... but we need smart changes... No, everything I proposed completely misunderstood .-. I never said that things couldn't catch on fire. Structures could still burn, say from wild fires, fire hound fires and all of that jazz. They would be flammable, but they would not be possible to be burnt by any players directly and to a certain extent also indirectly. Getting charcoal would still be easy; you could not light mobs on fire that are near flammable STRUCTURES. Trees aren't a structure, so if you want a whole large area of trees burnt, just capture a rabbit, put it inside your planted trees/a part of a forest, then hit it via a torch/lighter/fire staff and voila; charcoal for days. Lighting trees individually that are not nearby anything else flammable could still be burnt. I really, REALLY don't understand how you could misunderstand what I proposed to completely removing the concept of fire. Or, if you don't like that, then if something has not one but 2, or even 3 or even 4 or even more amount of flammable things around it would it then not be possible to burn down something flamable. Or perhaps even if there's a flammable structure within a certain radius of whatever other flammable thing. The amount of variation is endless, whilst you're talking about possible problems that have literally nothing to do with what I suggested, but something entirely different (you misunderstood my point(s)) and then didn't even think about other alternative ways of tweaking such mechanics and just dismissed it anyway. I mean, what the hell, man? And no... people like to play on public servers to meet new people and cooperate to build a base and face weird shenanigans, although because of griefing, a large portion of public servers that I've encountered you see people isolated from others in the fear of getting their base griefed (one server had banned rocks from people who they didn't trust within their largest base due to the fear of people making hammers and hammering their flingos). I believe that's one of the core focuses of Don't Starve Together; playing and meeting new people to cooperate with and withstand the forces of... Charlie? Them? Idk, but the point is that griefing is an issue that needs dealing with through mechanics to prevent it from occurring in the first place on public servers and unless that is done, public servers are nothing more than burnt bread. Or wheat, if it gets reset by griefers. And nope, a chest would take 10 smacks not 20 to destroy; it takes 2 smacks currently, so if you did your math correctly, it would be 10. And I doubt 10 hits would really be that annoying. Regardless x5 from current hits was simply one suggestion. Having a higher number of hits than currently could be different, like 6 or 8 hits to hammer a chest. Normal chests aren't really that important in all honesty anyway, but a large portion of other structures, such as Crock pots, Ice boxes and drying racks are. It could buy you time to save it (repair it) and then get the griefer banned before they can manage to completely destroy the structure (e.g. ice flingomatic) and then having to get EVEN MORE resources (e.g. gears) just to rebuild it (and since you can place things very close to a flingo after it's been placed but can't place a flingo so close to other things when those things are already placed, for instance walls, drying racks, chests, grass, saplings etc. then you would also have to destroy other structures/dig up certain crops in order to place the flingo back down there). @TheTraditionalGentleman that is exactly what I've been trying to do; suggest to implement mechanics that prevent griefing but in a smart way, but people so far have either misunderstood what I've said, tl;dr on it or whatever else other than reading it through, understanding it correctly and then giving well-developed feedback. Look, guys; there is a difference between the game burning down your stuff and a player burning down your stuff. If the game burns down your stuff, that's intentional game mechanics and I, at no point said I want that removed. I simply said that PLAYERS could not light structures and that they could not burn down other things under CERTAIN CONDITIONS. And the conditions I pointed out were simply a SUGGESTION and hoped that if someone thinks a better tweak of a condition for a suggestion could be provided in others' thought, then they would presented, but that was not the case. Multiple people, myself included (thanks to @leonseye) have pointed out that they want ways to prevent griefing from occurring in the first place. I then reasoned that for this to happen, certain mechanics would need to be CHANGED (and NOT SCRAPPED ENTIRELY). I then made a series of possible mechanics and certain conditions that could do the job correctly. The conditions can be varied, different, completely different, people can suggest whatever they think is best conditions to have certain things at (e.g. how many hammer hits it should take to hammer this and that, at what conditions should you be able to burn down what or perhaps even when etc.). But merely because of the conditions I thought would be great, my suggestions were completely misunderstood or completely dismissed for reasons unrelated to what my suggestions actually were. Like how; how did anybody misunderstood what I said? I don't understand. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/68851-simple-solution-for-the-griefing/page/2/#findComment-793023 Share on other sites More sharing options...
EuedeAdodooedoe Posted July 15, 2016 Share Posted July 15, 2016 27 minutes ago, TheHalcyonOne said: Please look over my posting history and see if you can find some instance of me complaining about griefers. Can't find anything? Are you sure you looked over it all? Okay. We seem to have some pretty serious differences of opinion, you and I. I certainly don't think neutering fires is the most "found way of dealing with things," and when last I checked the thread you originally suggested it in, very few others did. We also seem to have vastly different ideas of what's whining, or what's pathetic. To me, whining isn't making a single post saying "hey let's not neuter the dangers of a game that's supposed to be a cold-hearted ***** to you". It looks to me a lot more like one person racking up dozens of posts over the course of a couple of weeks crying about some instances of some jerk lighting up some of his stuff and expecting the game's fundamentals to be turned upside down so his widdle feewings never have to go through that again. But by all means, keep crusading for these nonsensical changes. I'm less worried about you getting your way than just some reasonable minds not using their brain power on finding solutions that aren't stupid, because I know Klei is looking at these suggestions of yours and not even slowing down to consider. And at the end of the day, I don't much care what the only guy on the forum with an (obnoxiously) animated avatar ****posting with small text and dumb Undertale clips and images can't stand. Okay, may be you did not complain about griefing after all. My bad. Although, if you read my last post, I mention that having "measures that prevent players from griefing in the first place" as opposed to "measures that deal with a griefer after they have committed griefing" is a better way to do it. Yeah, with what you've suggested you might get your loot back, but you'll be left over with a burnt base (and in turn half the resources gone anyway), flingos destroyed (you'll need to look for more gears or make a smaller base) and then have a chance of dealing with the same griefer a few minutes or so later. If you disagree with changing game mechanics to do this, even in a smart way so that you can barely notice the difference as a normal player then... why? Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/68851-simple-solution-for-the-griefing/page/2/#findComment-793033 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asparagus Posted July 15, 2016 Share Posted July 15, 2016 2 hours ago, EuedeAdodooedoe said: No, everything I proposed completely misunderstood .-. I apologize for misunderstanding but based on the text given: On 7/14/2016 at 10:34 PM, EuedeAdodooedoe said: (e.g. structures not being possible to burn, items/structures/objects that would cause a chain reaction to not be possible to burn, not being able to drop down an item next to a structure/item/object that is already burning/smouldering so that no chain reaction can be continued, not being able to hit mobs via fire dart, fire staff or torch whilst they're quite close to a structure, ... 2 hours ago, EuedeAdodooedoe said: Trees aren't a structure, so if you want a whole large area of trees burnt, just capture a rabbit, put it inside your planted trees/a part of a forest, then hit it via a torch/lighter/fire staff and voila; charcoal for days. Lighting trees individually that are not nearby anything else flammable could still be burnt. against the existing "mechanics"... that would be too... absurd... if you don't mind me saying. All that effort to get charcoal... and also the last part about "Lighting trees individually that are not nearby anything else flammable could still be burnt." That happens now... a rock beside a burning tree will not catch fire... now the "individual" part... so a tree... next to another tree won't catch fire? 2 hours ago, EuedeAdodooedoe said: And no... people like to play on public servers to meet new people and cooperate to build a base and face weird shenanigans I believe I have expressed my sentiment about public servers being great places to meet new players... I know you know this. (quoting in different tabs is hard...) Yes, I myself have said that public servers are a great place to meet new people and find new friends... and again, I have not had seen a griever in many moons since Charlie's reign... (even before that... this is just for effect)... The point I have been reiterating is yes, go and meet new people... make friends with them. And play with them. Now, if you want a long lasting server, would you play in a public server which runs without you and which you yourself don't own? If you want to invest in a world and want it to last, make a server with a password for you and your friends... 2 hours ago, EuedeAdodooedoe said: And nope, a chest would take 10 smacks not 20 to destroy; It was a hyperbole... I would imagine that would be the feeling of those 10 hammer hits on chests... 2 hours ago, EuedeAdodooedoe said: It could buy you time to save it (repair it) ...? So... this certain griever is hammering away at your flingo... and you stand next to it repairing it with a cutstone... again, all the while, he just hammers away... 2 hours ago, EuedeAdodooedoe said: Look, guys; there is a difference between the game burning down your stuff and a player burning down your stuff. Not saying it's impossible to make a tracker for that but this just seems... ok, let's leave it at that... Spoiler 1 hour ago, EuedeAdodooedoe said: If you disagree with changing game mechanics to do this, even in a smart way so that you can barely notice the difference as a normal player then... why? 2 hours ago, TheHalcyonOne said: I'm less worried about you getting your way than just some reasonable minds not using their brain power on finding solutions that aren't ****** ---- 2 hours ago, TheTraditionalGentleman said: I must have lucked out so far, because I'm yet to encounter any griefers on any server that I've played on As do I... as do I... 2 hours ago, EuedeAdodooedoe said: I then made a series of possible mechanics and certain conditions that could do the job correctly. The conditions can be varied, different, completely different, people can suggest whatever they think is best conditions to have certain things at (e.g. how many hammer hits it should take to hammer this and that, at what conditions should you be able to burn down what or perhaps even when etc.). But merely because of the conditions I thought would be great, my suggestions were completely misunderstood or completely dismissed for reasons unrelated to what my suggestions actually were. I think the reason you got a lot of flack was because of the condescending tone in the majority of your posts... 5 hours ago, EuedeAdodooedoe said: Seriously, I don't understand all of this "but muh mechanics!!!!11!1!" ********. If an issue can only be dealt with by hurting your feelings for changing the game's mechanics, then let it happen. What do you think is more important here; the ability to do something you'll never do on purpose (e.g. burn down your base) or stopping people from burning down your base so that you and everyone else who suffers from this doesn't have to complain about it anymore? Immediately starting with "I don't understand--" and then adding "by hurting your feelings" sets the tone of the text to that of an antagonistic one... and you know how humans are when being directed with a personal "you" (as one would read a text with "you" to refer to themselves), they fight back... Now as I have very little experience with grievers on the almost daily basis that I play DST in Klei's dedicated public servers (not just the odd Asian servers... but recently Pengull has lower ping for me for some reason), I have very little stake in this matter and to that I apologize for intruding on this debate regarding grievers... most of the "grievers" I find are just people who didn't even know how the chat worked (press Y) to ask stuff and assumed that the Crock Pot needed to be lit on fire to cook food... To which they apologized earnestly and was eager to learn... or the odd guy or two who picked up your backpack when you were fighting spiders/nightmares... now those... those are what I have experience with... they never tried to make backpacks or log suits and just picked stuff up... mostly just noob-ish activities... as it stands, I again, I suggest: to play with friends if the public servers they frequent are not to their liking use mods like the one that prevents people from messing with structures another player owns FireWall (AntiGriefing protection) Anti-haunting staff (Haunting and griefing protection) Enforce Good Behavior Simple Protection Ownership Mod and Modify Ownership Mod (made by two different people?) play in a password-protected server with friends Stay away from grievers and make hermit camps... I mean if you know they're gonna grief, would you want to play with them at all? Anything in-game is grief-able... grab 2 stacks of killer bees... place in the middle of the camp fire at night and watch people scramble away... no nerfing of bug nets pls... You're hatching a tall bird egg? Guy takes it away and eats it... (or a pig is brought to base) Having Abigail or another mob kill Glommer so not only do you not have A flying sanity spider, you don't even get the chance to kill Krampus for his Sack... Lead a herd of beefalo in heat to the base... Wes using his balloons to stop players from accessing stuff. Checking out the wardrobe? *pop* no you don't... (shoutout to a certain forumer, you foxy devil you... I mean yeah, there are mods to fix general grieving... but for the majority of us who don't want them, we still want the base game without the baby-proofing... Hey what do you know, I didn't realize this after posting but the topic name is "Simple Solution for the Griefing" and there's a "Simple Protection" mod that deals with grieving... he, he... ugh... :T ... ... OK, sorry, that was terrible... Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/68851-simple-solution-for-the-griefing/page/2/#findComment-793057 Share on other sites More sharing options...
EuedeAdodooedoe Posted July 15, 2016 Share Posted July 15, 2016 38 minutes ago, Asparagus said: I apologize for misunderstanding but based on the text given: ... against the existing "mechanics"... that would be too... absurd... if you don't mind me saying. All that effort to get charcoal... and also the last part about "Lighting trees individually that are not nearby anything else flammable could still be burnt." That happens now... a rock beside a burning tree will not catch fire... now the "individual" part... so a tree... next to another tree won't catch fire? I believe I have expressed my sentiment about public servers being great places to meet new players... I know you know this. (quoting in different tabs is hard...) Yes, I myself have said that public servers are a great place to meet new people and find new friends... and again, I have not had seen a griever in many moons since Charlie's reign... (even before that... this is just for effect)... The point I have been reiterating is yes, go and meet new people... make friends with them. And play with them. Now, if you want a long lasting server, would you play in a public server which runs without you and which you yourself don't own? If you want to invest in a world and want it to last, make a server with a password for you and your friends... It was a hyperbole... I would imagine that would be the feeling of those 10 hammer hits on chests... ...? So... this certain griever is hammering away at your flingo... and you stand next to it repairing it with a cutstone... again, all the while, he just hammers away... Not saying it's impossible to make a tracker for that but this just seems... ok, let's leave it at that... Reveal hidden contents ---- As do I... as do I... I think the reason you got a lot of flack was because of the condescending tone in the majority of your posts... Immediately starting with "I don't understand--" and then adding "by hurting your feelings" sets the tone of the text to that of an antagonistic one... and you know how humans are when being directed with a personal "you" (as one would read a text with "you" to refer to themselves), they fight back... Now as I have very little experience with grievers on the almost daily basis that I play DST in Klei's dedicated public servers (not just the odd Asian servers... but recently Pengull has lower ping for me for some reason), I have very little stake in this matter and to that I apologize for intruding on this debate regarding grievers... most of the "grievers" I find are just people who didn't even know how the chat worked (press Y) to ask stuff and assumed that the Crock Pot needed to be lit on fire to cook food... To which they apologized earnestly and was eager to learn... or the odd guy or two who picked up your backpack when you were fighting spiders/nightmares... now those... those are what I have experience with... they never tried to make backpacks or log suits and just picked stuff up... mostly just noob-ish activities... as it stands, I again, I suggest: to play with friends if the public servers they frequent are not to their liking use mods like the one that prevents people from messing with structures another player owns FireWall (AntiGriefing protection) Anti-haunting staff (Haunting and griefing protection) Enforce Good Behavior Simple Protection Ownership Mod and Modify Ownership Mod (made by two different people?) play in a password-protected server with friends Stay away from grievers and make hermit camps... I mean if you know they're gonna grief, would you want to play with them at all? Anything in-game is grief-able... grab 2 stacks of killer bees... place in the middle of the camp fire at night and watch people scramble away... no nerfing of bug nets pls... You're hatching a tall bird egg? Guy takes it away and eats it... (or a pig is brought to base) Having Abigail or another mob kill Glommer so not only do you not have A flying sanity spider, you don't even get the chance to kill Krampus for his Sack... Lead a herd of beefalo in heat to the base... Wes using his balloons to stop players from accessing stuff. Checking out the wardrobe? *pop* no you don't... (shoutout to a certain forumer, you foxy devil you... I mean yeah, there are mods to fix general grieving... but for the majority of us who don't want them, we still want the base game without the baby-proofing... Hey what do you know, I didn't realize this after posting but the topic name is "Simple Solution for the Griefing" and there's a "Simple Protection" mod that deals with grieving... he, he... ugh... :T ... ... OK, sorry, that was terrible... 1) What? No. Anything could catch fire, but things that are close together and are flammable (both) could not be burnt by players (in other words, when you try to initiate burning, your character would not attempt to burn the thing and say a certain speach as to why they aren't burning it down, so Willow could perhaps say "If I burn it all down now, there will be nothing left to burn later". Kind of like... you know that in order to shave beefalos they have to be asleep? That's like the on-and-off switch as to when you can and cannot shave them (also when they have already been shaved). And as for trees, when you can burn them would depend on whether there are any other flammable items/objects near them or, perhaps a certain amount of flammable objects, like 3 or 4 or something, if we want to stretch it and make griefing a little more easier, but getting charcoal a tad bit less of a fuss). And yeah, I guess it was a bit confusing, so I apologize for that :/ 2) Well, I've had quite a few griefers encountered when playing on a particular server. I would guess that griefers would go for the more late-game worlds instead because more progress has been made there. 3) Perhaps, but if it's like 6 or 8 hits, it wouldn't be that big a fuss, would it? I mean, most structures take like 4 hits to destroy, signs included already, which is quite a few hits and that doesn't take too long. May be the amount of times each thing takes to hammer should be completely different, based on how important the structure is, so for instance a flingo, since you rarely craft those and having one destroyed isn't really that nice, it could take 20 hits (x5 of its current amount of hits), where as a normal chest could take like 6 hits (x3 of its current amount of hits). 4) It's to buy time, so that the flingo doesn't get hammered before the griefer gets banned/kicked. I believe I explained this before. As to how it would work; well, the griefer is hammering away from 20 hits to 19, 18, 17, 16, 15, 14, 13 etc. 7, 6, 5, (you repair it with cutstone) and it starts all over again from 20 to 19, to 18, 17, 16, 15 and you could keep repairing the flingo so long as you have rocks/cutstone on you until everyone can vote to kick out the griefer/the host bans the griefer. 5) Tracking whether something has been done via a player or the gmae itself isn't gonna be much helpful if you stuff has been burnt down. If it's summer or a fire hound, that's most likely not griefing but a mistake on either a newbie's or on a player who was not looking out for what they were killing (most likely) and there were no flingos in the base at all (cause stuff takes some time to burn down, so making a mistake due to a fire hound and then turning a flingo on can save your whole base pretty much), where as a player coming in and hammering structures/flingos, looting stuff and/or burning stuff down is not something you can really prepare for if you want a decent base in an obvious location to welcome new players in. Tbh, I'm not really sure what you was gonna say in terms of the tracking, but... eh? 6) Majority of my posts? I only noticed that I started writing like that because I was shocked that nobody understood what I wrote correctly. And yes, I am aware of the fact that I wrote in not such a friendly tone, although I'm not sure how else I could express what I wanted to say. 7) You would be surprised; I've lost the count of the amount of looters, burners and hammerers I've ancounteres during my gameplay and a lot of them did it intentionally. I remember one guy came into out base through wormhole (the wormhole was in base) and said "You know what's coming" and then started burning stuff down. Another time, one griefer set so many things on fire that the server started lagging tremendously, to a point where the server had to be shut down. And another time, one person, I just happened to caught at the moment they were hammering one of our flingos at the corner of my screen and then started burning down our chests (we had scaled chests for everything flammable and normal chests for everything non-flammable so it wasn't too big an issue, although the flingo that got hammered was protecting a bunch of our drying racks, so we were lucky the griefer didn't managed to burn down any of those. And I think I had to break down some drying racks too because I couldn't fit the flingo between them). And another time, someone stayed in our base for 4 whole days and looted a whole bunch of important stuff, including gears (we had like 27 of them at the time) and we had to rollback all of those 4 days, which is more than half an hour progress (this also got a different newbie to leave the server because they didn't understand what we were doing, so that's a bummer) and the looter has not been banned to this day. That's just a FEW of the griefings I've encountered that were by no doubt intended griefings. Remember; all this is on a server that is long-term and gets shut down whenever everyone leaves and is left for public, though has people like me going there quite often. 8) A lot of those are mainly broken/badly functional mechanics of the game and rarely do they have something related to griefing. Though, my main focus is base-griefing, and I'm sure it is the same for others and this topic itself. 9) The mechanics I've suggested aren't really baby-proofing, they are a way of dealing fully or dealing for the most part with getting one's base destroyed because someone is just that big of an *******. And for a large part, you might not even notice them, although it highly depends on how you play and what you typically do as well as on the approaches that are in; how many hits of a hammer would it take to hammer this and that and this, how big of a cluster of things can you burn down and at what point would it be considered too much so the game would not let you do it (i.e. can you burn down 2 trees next to each other? how about 3? how about 4? okay, then how about 5? no more than 4 very close to each other? okay, not too big a problem, I can just light a rabbit on fire near a bunch of trees, or even a spider, which isn't too big a hassle if I want HUGE amounts of charcoal) etc. 10) Lol, that mod has mechanics that can make it easy for griefers to grief and makes it annoying for normal newbies because they cannot access any of the basic resources and need to ask someone who CAN open them to give stuff to them, which nobody actually does all that often. And with all of the Ice boxes being locked for you, that's even more frustrating >_< this is why I've suggested something a tad bit more complex and with varying ways of how it can be approached, as mentioned before. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/68851-simple-solution-for-the-griefing/page/2/#findComment-793086 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muche Posted July 15, 2016 Share Posted July 15, 2016 1 hour ago, EuedeAdodooedoe said: 7) ... And another time, someone stayed in our base for 4 whole days and looted a whole bunch of important stuff, including gears (we had like 27 of them at the time) and we had to rollback all of those 4 days... 10) ... And with all of the Ice boxes being locked for you, that's even more frustrating... These two points seem to contradict each other - either a new player can access a chest/icebox and can loot it all, or will be frustrated. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/68851-simple-solution-for-the-griefing/page/2/#findComment-793119 Share on other sites More sharing options...
EuedeAdodooedoe Posted July 15, 2016 Share Posted July 15, 2016 40 minutes ago, Muche said: These two points seem to contradict each other - either a new player can access a chest/icebox and can loot it all, or will be frustrated. Nope, a solution I previously suggested was the safe (I suggested 1 gear and 4 cutstone as its crafting recipe, it having 4 or 6 inventory as well as only being possible to hammer whilst it's open and not being flammable. With the lock and all of what I mentioned already in mind, it would be a way to keep rare stuff away from unwanted guests, whilst keeping the common stuff in normal chests for anybody to access) and a lock (I suggested 1 moon rock being its crafting recipe) being introduced into the game. As far as Ice boxes go, the lock would prevent it from being hammered unless opened and would only allow access to those who know the code for the lock or have a lock pick (I suggested it having 10 uses, needing at least a broken ancient altar to craft and 2 thulecite fragments to craft. The reason for the lock pick is to avoid a thing kind of thing that the anti-wall hitting mod or whichever mod does that achieved unfortunately by letting griefers wall people in and in this case, without the lock pick, griefers could simply flood the server with safes so long as they had the gears or whatnot to do it or newbies leaving and never coming back, but leaving a safe that just rots there, taking up space). This would more or less ensure that chests filled with basic stuff that every player needs can get them, whilst stopping newbies from getting rare, fancy junk they don't need as well as looters. Also, an effective method to prevent keeping a lock pick on you at all times would be to put it inside a safe that you know the pass code to. Either way, I'm simply putting these suggestions out there in hopes that others can look into them too, since I've heard somewhere that when you look at your own work/ideas you might think it's better than it actually is from others' perspective. So, I'm just hoping to get discussion on the suggestions I've made and see what kind of flaws they might have and what kind of solutions we might come up with so that hopefully devs can pick up on what we've come accross during our discussions and decide on how to improve mechanics to better fit anti-griefing whilst not disrupting too much of the normal gameplay. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/68851-simple-solution-for-the-griefing/page/2/#findComment-793143 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diezen Posted July 16, 2016 Share Posted July 16, 2016 19 hours ago, Asparagus said: You see, the thing about other people having the power to flag others as grievers is that it can and will be abused... imagine someone joining a public server and this group of people want the server all to themselves... this innocent player comes along and plays for a while and suddenly he's flagged as a griever for nothing... If you're going to put a tracker on their accounts, that would probably be linked to their klei id or steam id and then Klei would have to investigate the occurrence if that player was indeed being malicious which "ain't nobody got time fo dat". I mean really... Klei will not and should not police the servers... I do not want another Willow remake-nerf (thanks to @TheHalcyonOne for reminding us of that) You misunderstood it, just like with what you did with someone else... flagged as when they exceed some amount of burnt structures, not reporting from other players manually. If there was a way to show it as a stat on someone, that other players could see would be good maybe. Like if a Willow joins a random server, and they have 600 Structures Burned (from playing on Social or Cooperative). Something that shows up only if it exceeds a certain amount. Of course a player enforced reporting can be abused, just like with the Vote system. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/68851-simple-solution-for-the-griefing/page/2/#findComment-793244 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hezel Posted July 16, 2016 Share Posted July 16, 2016 Literally what. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/68851-simple-solution-for-the-griefing/page/2/#findComment-793250 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diezen Posted July 16, 2016 Share Posted July 16, 2016 19 hours ago, Asparagus said: 14 minutes ago, Hezel said: Literally what. If it's a number that shows up because the player exceeded an amount of burnt structures that day/week/etc (from playing Social/Cooperative servers), players can see that and decide whether or not to kick them. So people don't just auto kick any Willows that join servers (happens way too often, since I actually like playing WIllow). Ofc Anarchy/PvP servers it shouldn't count towards this, because it's free reign on anything. Also formatting is bugging out... wat Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/68851-simple-solution-for-the-griefing/page/2/#findComment-793260 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toroic Posted July 18, 2016 Share Posted July 18, 2016 So many people still don't get it, even after all this time. If you don't want to be griefed, don't play on public servers. Anytime you choose to play on a public server and are griefed, it's your fault. Klei will never be able to prevent all griefing, and years of complaining haven't changed anything. Use public servers to make friends you can fill private servers with. It works 1000% better. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/68851-simple-solution-for-the-griefing/page/2/#findComment-794324 Share on other sites More sharing options...
4potatoes Posted July 18, 2016 Share Posted July 18, 2016 Unfortunately, we live in a world where people have horrible intentions like these. The problem is the griefers themselves, but we really can't prevent people from becoming that way. I do have a few suggestions that could slightly help in some way. Make the combustion radius smaller - Make the range where fire can spread smaller, with certain structures. Important things like research stations, crock pots, yada yada, will have a smaller radius, like spiky trees. Add some sort of "Area Selection" for rollback - With Admin Powers, you can select an are while holding a key, and rollback a certain amount of time. This would be helpful to prevent progress from being removed. Like what other people have said, use private servers. I prefer to play with some friends on Steam (even though they suck), which is much better than getting a base obliterated by some jerk who just wants a quick laugh. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/68851-simple-solution-for-the-griefing/page/2/#findComment-794345 Share on other sites More sharing options...
EuedeAdodooedoe Posted July 18, 2016 Share Posted July 18, 2016 4 hours ago, Toros said: So many people still don't get it, even after all this time. If you don't want to be griefed, don't play on public servers. Anytime you choose to play on a public server and are griefed, it's your fault. Klei will never be able to prevent all griefing, and years of complaining haven't changed anything. Use public servers to make friends you can fill private servers with. It works 1000% better. Oh so it's OUR fault that jackass griefed our base as Willow... just because he's voting for Trump and not Hillary... Wat? Seriously though, your argument seems just as of a flavorless a potato as the reason why that one guy griefed. And I'm pretty sure the way the game works right now and the way you've described it wasn't the primary intention of playing the game. And even if it was, then it would not be obvious, in which case information about it should be provided before playing on a public server or whatever the hell. If this kind of attitude towards private and public servers is indeed not intended, then preventative mechanics MUST be in place, at the very least for public servers so that griefers cannot disrupt gameplay or disrupt it too much or at the very least stop it from occurring as often. I've written in a multitude of topics in various posts about a whole bunch of preventative mechanics that coincide with each other to prove for a pretty stable anti-griefing mechanisms. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/68851-simple-solution-for-the-griefing/page/2/#findComment-794379 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viru Posted July 18, 2016 Share Posted July 18, 2016 With every suggestion, there will always be people who will find a way to abuse it. The best way to prevent it is to play on a modded anti-greif server so it doesn't affect the unmodded game. I strongly dislike people who greif, but I don't want the game to change drastically in mechanics (such as the ones suggested here) due to the possibility of a couple of trolls. Don't want to play with mods? Live the nomad life. Your base is your backpack. No one can destroy/burn it down unless you unequip it. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/68851-simple-solution-for-the-griefing/page/2/#findComment-794383 Share on other sites More sharing options...
EuedeAdodooedoe Posted July 18, 2016 Share Posted July 18, 2016 8 minutes ago, Virusei said: With every suggestion, there will always be people who will find a way to abuse it. The best way to prevent it is to play on a modded anti-greif server so it doesn't affect the unmodded game. I strongly dislike people who greif, but I don't want the game to change drastically in mechanics (such as the ones suggested here) due to the possibility of a couple of trolls. Don't want to play with mods? Live the nomad life. Your base is your backpack. No one can destroy/burn it down unless you unequip it. Okay, so mechanics are implemented, griefers find ways to go around them, then we implement mechanics that prevent them doing that workaround, because it's not like everything is going to stay the same all the time in the game, is it? And we continue until no workarounds are found/exist. Whilst, at the same time, we don't drastically change game mechanics themselves and interfering much with gameplay. Yes, mechanics in general will be changed, but it's for the better. So long as they aren't extremely annoying to an average player, why not implement them? I mean, there's no other way of "preventing griefers from griefing in the first place" other than putting something into the mechanics; everything else like voting to kick, banning, even killing griefers only punishes griefers AFTER the damage has been done. Which isn't really optimal. Implementing ways that prevent players from lighting things on fire directly in certain conditions, tweaking the hammer and hammering of things a tad bit and introducing Safes, Locks and Lock Picks could all come to a point where the absolute worst griefing gets dealt with. Of course there still exists things like spider dens planting for which mechanics could too be tweaked a little, such as that a spider queen can't turn into a spider nest so long as she is within a certain radius of a craftable structure or something like that. Things don't need to be drastically changed, but even the smallest change in mechanics can make all the difference without players noticing or caring much or having it be annoying, whilst at the same time preventing griefing. It's win win! Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/68851-simple-solution-for-the-griefing/page/2/#findComment-794386 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viru Posted July 18, 2016 Share Posted July 18, 2016 32 minutes ago, EuedeAdodooedoe said: Implementing ways that prevent players from lighting things on fire directly in certain conditions, tweaking the hammer and hammering of things a tad bit and introducing Safes, Locks and Lock Picks could all come to a point where the absolute worst griefing gets dealt with. The Friendship mod is similar to what you mentioned, but it has a lot of flaws. If someone doesn't unlock their items (even bushes/saplings) and leaves the server, players can not do any actions to it at all. Someone can still abuse this by destroying things if it's unlocked, also stealing bushes/saplings then planting and locking them so no one else can use it. There are lots of creative ways to prevent anyone from coming to your base. Build your base far away, don't let anyone else in unless they have an X amount of days on the server (greifers most likely won't spend that much time on a server just to burn one base down), plant massive amounts of spider dens to deter someone from entering, hunt a Varg to serve as your protector, spawn tentacles if you're Wickerbottom, base in the swamp/caves or hidden behind those killer beehives, etc. Be creative. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/68851-simple-solution-for-the-griefing/page/2/#findComment-794412 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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