Game Stance: PvE or PvP?

[Trenix]

Right now I'm trying to figure out what's going on with this game. Some people want PvE while others want PvP. Unfortunately you can't balance the game around both. For me, the only reason I considered this game is for the PvP aspect of it. The surviving aspect of it to me is very minimal, just a secondary thing that I need to keep in check while I'm competing with other players. As of now, I see this game going toward the PvE more than the PvP aspect.

Reason being, we have characters which are far from balanced and don't work very well with each other. They're basically a copy paste from singleplayer with some minor tweaks. Boss mobs are also intended to be taken down by a group of players, but in a PvP server, you'll most likely be alone and wouldn't be able to take down a boss such as a dragonfly. Teams also don't exist and this feature is a requirement for PvP to stop enemies from going into your chests and so you can have a shared map with allies.

Surviving together against the harsh environment and surviving the environment while dealing with players are two different games. I just want to know what game I'm going to ask my friends to buy. The PvE players want to be heavily challenged by the environment, while the PvP players want to be heavily challenged by other players and somewhat the environment. A dev response would be great!
 

 

Think this topic is going out of hand and people are not quite understanding what I'm saying. I'll just make a quick breakdown and put it on the original post and leave it at that.

1) Singleplayer and coop games are highly torrented. Adding a strong element of PvP and balancing around PvP, will stop this from happening because official servers are highly populated unlike private ones.

2) I'm not saying to remove PvE or to stop working on it, I'm just asking to take PvP into consideration since PvE games can get away with imbalance features while in PvP you can't. A perfect example of this is using sleep darts and gunpowder to take out a boss monster which is supposed to be hard to kill. I want balance in my game, even if it is about killing a computer. I also don't want to be able to use sleep darts or gunpowder on enemy players.

3) Games that are strictly PvE don't last very long because they're repetitive and predictable. Random generators and coop may cure this, but not entirely. Torrenters also take advantage of this by getting the game, playing it out till they're bored, and then throwing it without costing them anything. However paying customers will eventually play it out and then throw their game in the graveyard, where they'll regret buying a game that didn't last as long as they expected it to.

A perfect example of this for me was Minecraft. They didn't take PvP into consideration at all, making it useless to even bother having. The only other option is to rely on PvE to improve, which they stopped updating for over a year now. That game is in the graveyard and I'm highly disappointed with it.

 

 

[CaptainFun]

To me, it seems like PvP is just a sideshow for the people who want it and that the cooperative element is what the game is being balanced for. To be honest, that's what I thought the game was going for since the beginning. It is Don't Starve Together after all. Even the trailers focus on the cooperative elements.

 

I think the game should focus on PvE. When people said they wanted Don't Starve Multiplayer, they wanted a game that was a multiplayer extension of Don't Starve. PvP is ok for people who want it, but PvE is much closer to the Don't Starve experience. 

 

 

[applebottom]

When people said they wanted Don't Starve Multiplayer, they wanted a game that was a multiplayer extension of Don't Starve. PvP is ok for people who want it, but PvE is much closer to the Don't Starve experience.

 

This was also what I expected DST to be.

 

Can't count how many times I sat alone in my base in DS and thought, "Wouldn't it be fun if I can build a castle with friends and try caves together?" Then DST was released. I still can't imagine doing serious PVP in DST because... well PVP sucks in it. I'm not gonna clamor for the devs to fix all PVP-related stuff because so far they're fulfilling my expectations (plain PVE together). There are lots of other PVP games out there anyway.

 

Of course, if someone modded it to add more balanced characters and weapons the same way DOTA was made for Warcraft... I'm not gonna complain.

[Kuldiin]

The problem with PVP is people dont really PVP, they turn into griefers and will exploit/log off etc just to win.

 

Look at Meridian 59. The PVP there can be avoided by logging off, which is common practice in the game and accepted by the community.

[Shamy]

log off etc just to win.

 

 

 

 

 

When someone uses Pan Flute or Sleepytime Stories, how can you not log off?

 

 

[saltychipmunk]

if people want pvp in a survival game, they should just play rust.  that is pretty much all that game is good for these days anyway.

[Trenix]

Honestly this game should go for the PvP aspect. I'm still waiting for a game like Jungle Troll Tribes from Warcraft III: Frozen Throne. PvE can only go so far before it gets boring. In fact, even as I'm playing I'm already beginning to get bored and the only way it'd remedy it is some PvP. Rust is a joke coming from someone who enjoys survival and PvP. PvP could be improved in this game if it actually got some work done to it. Also don't forget that some mobs can grief too, so griefing isn't off the table just because you're playing PvE.

Just playing "together" is going to cause people to password their server and only play with their friends, as they are already doing. That will just open the doors to torrenting the game because either way, you're still playing amongst yourself rather than with other people, since you can't trust anyone you don't know. Personally I don't think it was the right direction to make, the idea of PvP would of opened up way more opportunities. Maybe I'll just play wilderness mode with my friends.

[DarkXero]

@Trenix, what do you suggest for PvP then.

Right now PvP is getting tons of items and holding one key. Do you have any specific ideas in mind?

 

I can't see this game as PvP because I imagine everybody is just happy to be with someone else after being trapped alone by so long.

[Flare2V]

To me, it seems like PvP is just a sideshow for the people who want it and that the cooperative element is what the game is being balanced for. To be honest, that's what I thought the game was going for since the beginning. It is Don't Starve Together after all. Even the trailers focus on the cooperative elements.

 

I think the game should focus on PvE. When people said they wanted Don't Starve Multiplayer, they wanted a game that was a multiplayer extension of Don't Starve. PvP is ok for people who want it, but PvE is much closer to the Don't Starve experience. 

 

This is entirely true, but the unfortunate reality is that once you've got survival down, all that's left is building neato bases and killing other people, the newest addition to the series being PvP. Hopefully we can expect to see fair balancing on the PvP side and a lot more in terms of survival gameplay in the future.

[Trenix]

@Trenix, what do you suggest for PvP then.

Right now PvP is getting tons of items and holding one key. Do you have any specific ideas in mind?

 

I can't see this game as PvP because I imagine everybody is just happy to be with someone else after being trapped alone by so long.

 

To you, PvP may seem like it's all about combat. However it's a whole lot more than that. It's also about securing your items, walling up your base making it difficult or near impossible to breach, stealing and murdering neighbors just to survive, and building a community on your own terms. If you ever played a game like Salem or Haven & Hearth, you would know the experience you get when you meet a player or find a player made camp. You're always on the edge and the game is replayable indefinitely even after you die.

When you see a player, your adrenaline starts to kick in. You need to decide quickly if he's your enemy or ally, maybe he'll join your camp or maybe he'll just trade with you. When you see a player camp you wonder who owns it and if the owner is around. Maybe the owner has many friends or maybe the place has been abandoned. Seeing a few skeletons is a safe bet that you can pillage from it! However maybe you're wrong and they can somehow trace you back down and kill you for trespassing.

What would I like to see for PvP? Stronger walls, lockable chests, gates to close walls, able to have teams, characters that work with each other, balanced weapons, and much much more. What I don't want to see is monster bosses that require a raid of players to take down, I don't see how that makes the game more enjoyable.

[CaptainFun]

What would I like to see for PvP? Stronger walls, lockable chests, gates to close walls, able to have teams, characters that work with each other, balanced weapons, and much much more.

Some of the stuff in the files suggests we will be seeing those in the future. These things are also nice for non PvP servers.

 

 

 What I don't want to see is monster bosses that require a raid of players to take down, I don't see how that makes the game more enjoyable.

It's more enjoyable because it's more difficult and encourages teamwork. Or at least I think so. Cant comment on Dragonfly yet. 

[Trenix]

It's more enjoyable because it's more difficult and encourages teamwork. Or at least I think so. Cant comment on Dragonfly yet. 

 

The lack of depth in combat makes this raid concept annoying rather than fun. With the right equipment, we should be able to tank and kill boss mobs ourselves. I don't get the purpose of kiting and needing to smack a boss around for over a half an hour, whats so fun about that? The core aspects of this game is about survival and crafting, the combat part is just pushing it. Klei should keep combat nice and simple. Just Have us binge jerkies and beat our enemies to death until our weapons and armors give out.

[Asparagus]

Of course, if someone modded it to add more balanced characters and weapons the same way DOTA was made for Warcraft... I'm not gonna complain.

 

I keep running out of likes...

NOTE: Like when regenerated 

[DarkXero]

@Trenix, and what depth of combat do you want? How can we make combat better here?

Stock up 20 jerkies and salves, 5 armors, 5 hambats, then just hold F to win if you had more items than the other?

 

I concede that combat is bland. But it always was.

Wilson is not a knight, he's just a nerd trying to not get eaten.

 

I played Rust, Minecraft, and Street Fighter, and I play Mortal Kombat with my friends. I understand the rush you are talking about, from meeting that guy with the armor and the rifle when you only have an axe, to being on edge because you are on the verge of losing. However, I don't see Don't Starve Together as that kind of game. Wilson remembered forgotten knowledge NOT to duke it out in a free for all fashion with everybody that crossed the portal. The game's philosophy, for me, does not fit an arena PvP vision.

 

This doesn't mean I want to erase all PvP traces from existence. I see the removal of force-feeding as a mistake. I like being able to smack that smart guy on his head to teach him a lesson, or to neutralize griefers in a violent fashion.

 

All I see here are suggestions to turn Don't Starve Together into yet another multiplayer arena.

What does this game have, despite all the things you see missing, that others games don't?

[Trenix]

@Trenix, and what depth of combat do you want? How can we make combat better here?

Stock up 20 jerkies and salves, 5 armors, 5 hambats, then just hold F to win if you had more items than the other?

 

I concede that combat is bland. But it always was.

Wilson is not a knight, he's just a nerd trying to not get eaten.

 

I don't want an in depth combat system, it's not possible with the core design of Don't Starve. What I'm complaining about is the kiting aspect. It's alright to use for weak mobs, but it should be impossible to do with monster bosses and even players. Like I said, PvP is not just about combat and you're making it seem like that's exactly what it is. You're even going as far as making it seem like I want a more in depth combat, when I've never said that.

 

I played Rust, Minecraft, and Street Fighter, and I play Mortal Kombat with my friends. I understand the rush you are talking about, from meeting that guy with the armor and the rifle when you only have an axe, to being on edge because you are on the verge of losing. However, I don't see Don't Starve Together as that kind of game. Wilson remembered forgotten knowledge NOT to duke it out in a free for all fashion with everybody that crossed the portal. The game's philosophy, for me, does not fit an arena PvP vision.

Unfortunately you don't understand what I'm saying because all you're talking about is combat. When you meet a player that you've never seen before, it'd be a rather bad idea to just kill them right then and there. In a game like Salem or Haven & Hearth, people almost never kill you without reason. They instead talk to you, get information from you, watch over you, and then they figure out what to do with you. The game gets very social very quickly and killing the player right then and there, won't show you were their base is.

There are so many scenarios that you can pull when meeting a player, such as threatening them to leave, asking them pay or you'll burn their base down, ect. It's endless, but I guess in a game like Rust all you do is just kill each other. Minecraft also has no real survival aspects in it so you'll never really experience the need for food, shelter, and other necessities. Personally I hate Minecraft and regret buying it everyday. It's unpolished, lacks depth, many things feel like they're placeholders, and they still use developer graphics for crying out loud.

 

All I see here are suggestions to turn Don't Starve Together into yet another multiplayer arena.

What does this game have, despite all the things you see missing, that others games don't?

Real survival. Like I said, I want to play Jungle Troll Tribes again. That game is very similar to this, just this game lacks the PvP elements. You may say that I should go back and play that game, but Warcraft III: Frozen Throne is probably dead right now. It's such an old game that I doubt anyone plays that map anymore.

[DarkXero]

@Trenix, now I understand better your point.

Ultimately, this falls down to the developers.

 

Perhaps, just like Jungle Troll Tribes is a mod to Warcraft III: FT, you could use mods to enhance your pvp experience.

[Heroman3003]

 

Real survival. Like I said, I want to play Jungle Troll Tribes again. That game is very similar to this, just this game lacks the PvP elements. You may say that I should go back and play that game, but Warcraft III: Frozen Throne is probably dead right now. It's such an old game that I doubt anyone plays that map anymore.

 

 

Look at the name of the game and understand that its INTENDED to be ALWAYS coop. PvP was only added because few tryhards were too bored and complained. We should survive TOGETHER. Game is harder for one player to survive than in singleplayer version NOT because of PvP, but because of team advantage. Again, idea of DST is teamwork, not mindgames and betrayal.

 

P.S. I've heard of MC and Rust, but never heard a glimpse about these 2 games you mentioned. Probably means they are not popular and, since you want game to be like them, your opinion is unpopular too.

 

[Trenix]

@Trenix, now I understand better your point.

Ultimately, this falls down to the developers.

 

Perhaps, just like Jungle Troll Tribes is a mod to Warcraft III: FT, you could use mods to enhance your pvp experience.

 

You may be right, didn't think of that. Maybe someone will make a mod for what I'm asking for.

 

Look at the name of the game and understand that its INTENDED to be ALWAYS coop. PvP was only added because few tryhards were too bored and complained. We should survive TOGETHER. Game is harder for one player to survive than in singleplayer version NOT because of PvP, but because of team advantage. Again, idea of DST is teamwork, not mindgames and betrayal.

 

P.S. I've heard of MC and Rust, but never heard a glimpse about these 2 games you mentioned. Probably means they are not popular and, since you want game to be like them, your opinion is unpopular too.

 

 

I'd rather find ways for everyone to play the way that they want to play, rather than forcing everyone to play together in a care bear friendly manner. Your ideal game seems to not be working anyway, being that people are passwording their games and only playing with their friends. Anyone who opens their server to the public to play "together" with other players, deals with grievers. This obviously shows that many people enjoy it and want to compete and attack others rather than help them.

I get that many people are coming from the singleplayer version of the game and are expecting the same type of game, but there will also be many people like me, who want to use the multiplayer opportunity to compete with other players AND team up with them. I'm not sure how you, the developers, and other players didn't expect that making the game multiplayer would almost guarantee griefing and PvPing?

Games are competitive in general, you add multiplayer to it and you better believe you're gonna wanna compete with the person that you're playing with. We're not tryhards, we're just trying to have fun. What I don't get is that when a computer destroys your base or steal your items, you're quite alright with it. However when a real player destroys your base or steals your items, you get mad. That just doesn't make sense to me.

Anyway, I just don't think the game is going in the right direction. It seems like the developers and fans are trying to build the game in a certain way that sounds good on paper, but will only work in a controlled situation, like playing with friends or people that you know. However even then you might get into a fight with one of your friends and he'll show up in your base and burn it down. Sure you can do a command to bring it all back, but once again it's all overly controlled.

So whether you heard about the game I liked or not, it really doesn't matter. Some people clearly like PvP and want to see more of it just like me. That's why those "tryhards" got their PvP in the first place, right?

[Heroman3003]

 

I'd rather find ways for everyone to play the way that they want to play, rather than forcing everyone to play together in a care bear friendly manner. Your ideal game seems to not be working anyway, being that people are passwording their games and only playing with their friends. Anyone who opens their server to the public to play "together" with other players, deals with grievers. This obviously shows that many people enjoy it and want to compete and attack others rather than help them.

I get that many people are coming from the singleplayer version of the game and are expecting the same type of game, but there will also be many people like me, who want to use the multiplayer opportunity to compete with other players AND team up with them. I'm not sure how you, the developers, and other players didn't expect that making the game multiplayer would almost guarantee griefing and PvPing?

Games are competitive in general, you add multiplayer to it and you better believe you're gonna wanna compete with the person that you're playing with. We're not tryhards, we're just trying to have fun. What I don't get is that when a computer destroys your base or steal your items, you're quite alright with it. However when a real player destroys your base or steals your items, you get mad. That just doesn't make sense to me.

Anyway, I just don't think the game is going in the right direction. It seems like the developers and fans are trying to build the game in a certain way that sounds good on paper, but will only work in a controlled situation, like playing with friends or people that you know. However even then you might get into a fight with one of your friends and he'll show up in your base and burn it down. Sure you can do a command to bring it all back, but once again it's all overly controlled.

So whether you heard about the game I liked or not, it really doesn't matter. Some people clearly like PvP and want to see more of it just like me. That's why those "tryhards" got their PvP in the first place, right?

PvP was added because it did not affected players that did not wanted it. Just press one button in settings and it's done. Griefing is other thing. Griefing potential is being destroyed because it can ruin game for both players in some way. Changing game into more PvP oriented WILL affect silent majority of together players.

 

The best solution would be just making balance slightly different for PvP and PvE server-wide and make PvP/PvE bound to world, not server. That way everyone will be satisfied.

[Maris]

Life PvP is real! PvP mode is more realistic, because it is normal to be able to kill (or just hit) other characters in wild world.

 

Griefing is possible on PvE servers, because griefing in DST is just sabotaging. There is no problems with griefers on my PvP server, because any person can punish any griefer. So PvP mode is good. Also it lets admins to not care about server. I have to care only about pvp balance (with mods ofc).

 

There are some tricks on my pvp server to make it better. For example, all guests start with 21 hp. So they have to survive a little before they can pvp or grief. Then they need some good weapon and armor, but it takes time. And so on. It's just surviving in pvp mode, isn't it?

 

Griefers are like an animals. You can hunt them, take their meat and stuff. They can hunt you too. Is not it just PvP?

 

 

And, as it was described earlier, just do not use pvp mode if you do not like it.

[Vanderer]

If people had a better idea of how unique Don't Starve really is in the grand scheme of things, then you'll understand why I want PVE.

For starters, a survival game which is actually good, for single player? That's a neat plus in itself, and the fact it was made for single player instead of just being a washed out multiplayer except not is always good. Having an art style which isn't the generic (realistic look) is great as well, but what really sets the multiplayer aspect of Don't Starve apart is that, at least one gets the sense of we should be working together instead of killing each other.

  Think about this, how many survival games are there where you can technically work together, but PVP is on, not just in certain zones outside of safe zones for newbies, but always on?

​   That's the problem. You can't expect people to work together if PVP is there, for the simple reason that, seriously, how can you trust anyone? Sure, friends would work, but you have to look at this from the many gamers perspective of not having a friend who plays the game. You have to look from their viewpoint and go into this idea that if one doesn't have a friend to play with, they can make one through the game and work as a team.

  Secondly, I would hate it if Klei tried to balance the characters for PVP.... Unless, you made the characters balanced exclusively for that mode only, and leave the originals in other modes.

  I personally just want a survival game where for once I can actually work together with someone and not worry about being shot in the back five minutes later either by someone else or the person double crossing me once I've helped build them something. We have enough games like that already, and if going by the ones on steam solely, which seem to be in a constant state of early access and the reviews, most of them aren't even good, if any of them. You think having your camp burned down or hammered is bad? Sanity drain got you down? A thousand trolls is nothing compared to several thousand hackers.

   Add PVP to the game, I don't care... Just make sure it's not the main focus and that it takes away from PVE, because for once we really need a survival game that encourages team work instead of outright telling you to go screw yourself for even dare thinking of the idea.

 

[Trenix]

I don't see how balancing the game for PvP would even alter PvE. I've made a recent suggestion where depending on the amount of players within a server, they would either weaken or strengthen the monsters in the game. This would be great for PvE players who choose to play together with their friends, but it could also be turned off for PvP servers who will have players that are against each other. In multiplayer, there is no unlocking characters, so why shouldn't characters become balanced throughout? Klie already is balancing them out already and it does seem like it's possibly for PvP.

Also let me inform you and the developers with something. Singleplayer and coop games are bad games to make, they're bad for business. Just look at how popular Don't Starve Together got for the fact that it was a multiplayer game. However if the game remained singleplayer or coop, people would just torrent the game. They would either play with their friends through LAN or through an online LAN network. There would be no need to buy the game because the way it's designed is meant to be played with only people you know anyway. I want people to use Klei's official server lists, rather for players to make their own private games and not even pay for the game. To do this we must base this game off PvP and adjust accordingly.

Like I said, there is nothing wrong with playing PvE in a PvP balanced game. However asking Klei to make two different games or simply making them build a coop game rather than one with PvP in mind, will cost the company money. If you want to make some real good money, you need to give customers a reason to buy your game and use your official server list. PvP is how you're going to do it otherwise they'll just torrent it. And yes, Don't Starve, a singleplayer game, was very popular. However it would of been even more popular if it was a multiplayer game from the beginning. Without a doubt, they've lost plenty of money by making it a singleplayer game.

[RalphKastro]

I think the game should mainly be balanced for PvE, with only slight changes to make PvP possible and fun. Co-op is the main mode.


And there is no such thing as realism in videogames.

[Flare2V]

To you, PvP may seem like it's all about combat. However it's a whole lot more than that. It's also about securing your items, walling up your base making it difficult or near impossible to breach, stealing and murdering neighbors just to survive, and building a community on your own terms. If you ever played a game like Salem or Haven & Hearth, you would know the experience you get when you meet a player or find a player made camp. You're always on the edge and the game is replayable indefinitely even after you die.

When you see a player, your adrenaline starts to kick in. You need to decide quickly if he's your enemy or ally, maybe he'll join your camp or maybe he'll just trade with you. When you see a player camp you wonder who owns it and if the owner is around. Maybe the owner has many friends or maybe the place has been abandoned. Seeing a few skeletons is a safe bet that you can pillage from it! However maybe you're wrong and they can somehow trace you back down and kill you for trespassing.

What would I like to see for PvP? Stronger walls, lockable chests, gates to close walls, able to have teams, characters that work with each other, balanced weapons, and much much more. What I don't want to see is monster bosses that require a raid of players to take down, I don't see how that makes the game more enjoyable.

 

I am entirely aware PvP involves gathering materials as quickly as possible, a majority of my playtime in DST was setting up pvp tournaments/matches and fighting it out. I realise the whole adrenaline thing, I used to play a heck of a lot of "zombie survival" games in the past merely for the player encounters.

[Sindex]

I prefer the split of PvE and PvP. Eventually once caves and the other content is finished up, I know that PvP will be something that Klei will work on eventually. It's just going to take time to get there. Also griefers (or people who love to exploit), use both PvE and PvP to do their dirty deeds. They just live by those set of rules within that particular environment.