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What really makes giants and bosses trivial.


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We've all seen that Dragonfly has now got 27500 health. You'd think that would buff the giant a lot. But in fact, because of the way the mechanics work right now for Dragonfly in DST, she is actually quite a trivial boss; have some players distract the Larvae while the others tank the Dragonfly; she won't go into rage mode while the Larvae are not all dead, which makes here a trivial giant until then!

 

What makes a giant or a boss a good fight isn't the amount of health it has! It's about their attacks; how much damage each hit deals, how often the hit is performed by the boss/giant and at how big of a range in radius the attack has any effect on a payer or any other mob.

 

If you were to fight multiple Dragonflies at the same time, that would be a different story, like when a gang of spiders aggro on you, but when it comes to fighting one giant + some minions if it has any, well then it's all about their attacks. Attacks is what makes kiting more difficult; the reason why people often are able to defeat Treeguards without losing any health is because Tree guard has a big gap in his attacks and he only makes one swipe each time, which is also the only attack he has. Not to mention that the range is quite small as well, for smaller tree guards in particular!

 

So, it's not about defense, it's about offense that makes a giant a giant and a boss a boss.

 

Would you agree with me? Share your thoughts below :)

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I can't really say anything about that because I didn't fight the new dragonfly yet. I think a good solution for this would be adding a male dragonfly (probably smaller and weaker because insects often have bigger females) and ensure that the highest priority for lavae is defending their parents.

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Honestly, even if I haven't fought the new Dragonfly, asking for 4 players to work together could be a hassle (even if you make your server public) since you'll get griefers and people who just want to kill other players for the fun, or newbies, who don't know anything (no offense to any newbies, but I'm not someone to teach other people).

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Honestly, even if I haven't fought the new Dragonfly, asking for 4 players to work together could be a hassle (even if you make your server public) since you'll get griefers and people who just want to kill other players for the fun, or newbies, who don't know anything (no offense to any newbies, but I'm not someone to teach other people).

I'm talking about having challenge to people who already are good at the game. You can get used to things, but it is more fun is that even if you become a professional, you would still have things which cannot be easily done through kiting. That is why I suggested for Gmoose to be buffed before with the giant tornado attack!

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Honestly, even if I haven't fought the new Dragonfly, asking for 4 players to work together could be a hassle (even if you make your server public) since you'll get griefers and people who just want to kill other players for the fun, or newbies, who don't know anything (no offense to any newbies, but I'm not someone to teach other people).

 

Just because the fight is balanced for 4 people doesn't mean that you actually have to have 4 players to even attempt the fight.

 

We just took her down w/ 2 people, which was hard to be sure, but we were pretty well prepared (Springtime, using Morning Stars in the rain, multiple logs suits / battle helms, honey poultices / healing salves, etc).

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We've all seen that Dragonfly has now got 27500 health. You'd think that would buff the giant a lot. But in fact, because of the way the mechanics work right now for Dragonfly in DST, she is actually quite a trivial boss; have some players distract the Larvae while the others tank the Dragonfly; she won't go into rage mode while the Larvae are not all dead, which makes here a trivial giant until then!

 

What makes a giant or a boss a good fight isn't the amount of health it has! It's about their attacks; how much damage each hit deals, how often the hit is performed by the boss/giant and at how big of a range in radius the attack has any effect on a payer or any other mob.

 

If you were to fight multiple Dragonflies at the same time, that would be a different story, like when a gang of spiders aggro on you, but when it comes to fighting one giant + some minions if it has any, well then it's all about their attacks. Attacks is what makes kiting more difficult; the reason why people often are able to defeat Treeguards without losing any health is because Tree guard has a big gap in his attacks and he only makes one swipe each time, which is also the only attack he has. Not to mention that the range is quite small as well, for smaller tree guards in particular!

 

So, it's not about defense, it's about offense that makes a giant a giant and a boss a boss.

 

Would you agree with me? Share your thoughts below :-)

 

I actually do agree w/ what you've said here, and would also like to throw my hat into the "interesting fight mechanics make a fight interesting, not just big numbers" ring.

 

However, I don't honestly feel that the Dragonfly's health itself is an issue; it just means that you'll need to plan for a bit of endurance during the fight.

 

There's no real reason that a boss can't have interesting fight mechanics AND a large health bar, though.

 

As it stands, it took 2 of us about 10 minutes (this is w/ one person kiting the dragonfly while the other killed adds and swapping to heal up, so a very long fight) to take her down, and we both felt pretty good about the experience.

 

But you're absolutely right that once you figure out her pattern, it's just a matter of time before she goes down (barring any silly mistakes or a mismanagement of shadow creatures at an inopportune moment).

 

Her enrage was... interesting, to say the least.  Was the first time either of us had fought her and she killed my fiance outright w/ her stomp.  <.<

 

Fortunately, her arena is directly next to both our camp and a touchstone.  : P

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I actually do agree w/ what you've said here, and would also like to throw my hat into the "interesting fight mechanics make a fight interesting, not just big numbers" ring.

 

However, I don't honestly feel that the Dragonfly's health itself is an issue; it just means that you'll need to plan for a bit of endurance during the fight.

 

There's no real reason that a boss can't have interesting fight mechanics AND a large health bar, though.

 

As it stands, it took 2 of us about 10 minutes (this is w/ one person kiting the dragonfly while the other killed adds and swapping to heal up, so a very long fight) to take her down, and we both felt pretty good about the experience.

 

But you're absolutely right that once you figure out her pattern, it's just a matter of time before she goes down (barring any silly mistakes or a mismanagement of shadow creatures at an inopportune moment).

 

Her enrage was... interesting, to say the least.  Was the first time either of us had fought her and she killed my fiance outright w/ her stomp.  <.<

 

Fortunately, her arena is directly next to both our camp and a touchstone.  : P

If dragonfly gets more attacks, or to say gets better attacks while the health is lowered, say to 10000 instead of 27500, that would probably make the battle to last just as long... With the exception that the battle would be much more interesting. And it would be awesome if the attacks instead of being in order, like say 3 swipes and then stomp, it would be that swipes are normal attacks, but there's a 25% chance of her making stomp attack, but at least 1 swipe attack must be done before a stop attack could be made again, meaning that kiting her would be harder as it would be harder to predict when she will make a stomp attack and you could potentially generalize that she does a stomp attack after each swipe attack, which would make your kiting much harder. Randomization is the key; because even the biggest professionals cannot be fully ready for such things. One small mistake and everything can go down the drain, but you never know when that would happen. Similarly, I made a mistake of going back into a dedicated server to my own base while it was summer and guess what happened; all of my chests and thermal measurer burnt down and I didn't get any contents from the chests back! I managed to save the two farms, which started to smolder, but the chests are a history.

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Those 500 health larvae do 50 damage. That is right there is Tallbird damage, but you also have to factor in the fire damage and the heat stroke damage. Those dumb things out DPS the Dragonfly, no wonder she resorts to them.

 

Klei, I can live with this. But please oh please don't change the ice flingo-matics and their freezing properties. Those larvae deserve a cold and quick death.

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I agree that health does not make a strong boss, but attack patterns do. Pretty much why I never try a game on hard mode after I beat it in normal. It's just the same enemy attack patterns, but more damage spongy. No thanks.

   I can understand the reasoning of dragonfly being confined to a arena. We don't need anything else on fire, after all, and I am okay with that. I like having boss variety, so having a arena style boss is fine by me.

   Generally though, you have to keep in mind that deerclops and bearger aren't so trivial. Groose is pretty much optional, but bearger will come after food and deerclops will come after structures. The reason why this in't so trivial is because, well, have you tried getting several players together to kill one? Even just another player?

   When I go online now I generally take the role of if I can't stick my camp in a swamp, i'm not doing a permanent camp by any means. I'm taking the nomadic path as it were, just surviving on seeds, berries, some carrots and mushrooms. Occasionally get the odd bit of meat and such, trade a few items from other players, but that's it, at least the winter will be easy that way. Spring time you'll already have the stuff you need to set up a good camp and by summer you might have the stuff to deal with bearger, assuming you manage to play that long before the server goes down or you just get bored. 

   I believe they changed up deerclops abit now in multiplayer. Instead of just chasing a random player until it gets bored it will make a beeline for a camp. I had one set up not far away from another. The deerclops destroyed it completely but left mine intact after it calmed down and walked away.

   Also, the obvious problems of setting up a camp is you run the risk of someone setting it alight while you are away. No matter how slow that burn time is by comparison now it does jack all if you are off somewhere else gathering supplies...... And at the end of it all, the bosses are still going under some work. This game really wasn't meant for multiplayer, and the amount of time it's taking to make it so shows that.

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I hope this isn't off-topic, I mean we're basicially suggesting dragonfly improvements here and I don't want to start a new thread.
I also think that the dragonfly should behave more like a mother. I think a few (like 4 or 5) lavae should already be dwelling in the dragonfly area (always staying near their mother) and she should occasionally feed them with ashes. Seriously, the lavae are her babies and a she shouldn't only be using her babies for fighting but also take care of them.

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I hope this isn't off-topic, I mean we're basicially suggesting dragonfly improvements here and I don't want to start a new thread.

I also think that the dragonfly should behave more like a mother. I think a few (like 4 or 5) lavae should already be dwelling in the dragonfly area (always staying near their mother) and she should occasionally feed them with ashes. Seriously, the lavae are her babies and a she shouldn't only be using her babies for fighting but also take care of them.

Oh cmon! Now that everyone found out Dragonfly is a she and not a he, everyone wants here to be a caring mother! Stop with that, ok?! We have "a caring mother giant" in the game already; it's called Gmoose! Dragonfly is one of those angry giants which is how I see her, and just because she's female does not mean she should be have more of a caring mother type of character! The Larvae represents maggots (Only recently noticed that), yes, however anger is what I'm more into in terms of the giant's character and the character of her minions/children. Moar rage!!!

 

EDIT: Also, Dragonfly's animations have been patched up! She now does the stomp attack and has an angry face upon attacking a player, but doesn't go into rage mode, so all her attacks are practically the same, except that she won't deal fire damage until all Larvae are killed. And tbh, I think that's slightly more likable! Two things which I disprove of which are still features for her:

1) She doesn't spawn only in Summer. Keep the giants seasonal, Klei!!!

2) She still has way too much health. Better if it's halved or something, now that she does do stomp attack out of rage mode.

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Oh cmon! Now that everyone found out Dragonfly is a she and not a he, everyone wants here to be a caring mother! Stop with that, ok?! We have "a caring mother giant" in the game already; it's called Gmoose! Dragonfly is one of those angry giants which is how I see her, and just because she's female does not mean she should be have more of a caring mother type of character! The Larvae represents maggots (Only recently noticed that), yes, however anger is what I'm more into in terms of the giant's character and the character of her minions/children. Moar rage!!!

 

EDIT: Also, Dragonfly's animations have been patched up! She now does the stomp attack and has an angry face upon attacking a player, but doesn't go into rage mode, so all her attacks are practically the same, except that she won't deal fire damage until all Larvae are killed. And tbh, I think that's slightly more likable! Two things which I disprove of which are still features for her:

1) She doesn't spawn only in Summer. Keep the giants seasonal, Klei!!!

2) She still has way too much health. Better if it's halved or something, now that she does do stomp attack out of rage mode.

You've never heard the expression, "Angry mama bear," have you?

Being a caring mother does not necessarily make Dragonfly any less angry or intimidating. In fact, mother bears get even more aggressive while caring for their young; even think about getting close to her cubs and she will rek u, scrub. 

I get the point that the Dragonfly is not a bear and her babies are maggots, which are traditionally not raised but their mothers, but you make it sound like making her care for her offspring will only make her soft and cuddly. 

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You've never heard the expression, "Angry mama bear," have you?

Being a caring mother does not necessarily make Dragonfly any less angry or intimidating. In fact, mother bears get even more aggressive while caring for their young; even think about getting close to her cubs and she will rek u, scrub. 

I get the point that the Dragonfly is not a bear and her babies are maggots, which are traditionally not raised but their mothers, but you make it sound like making her care for her offspring will only make her soft and cuddly. 

She already attacks players on sight and releases Lavae into the world during the fight so... I don't get exactly what people mean when they say "caring mother".

 

And you're contradicting yourself as:

1) You said yourself that flies don't take care of their offspring

2) People didn't get these ideas until they found out that Dragonfly is a she! Everyone thought she was a he first! I find that kind of sexist! Not every female mob needs to be made into a loving and caring mother! Especially if she's a fly. Because of the the previous reason.

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I was about to reply to that, but this isn't the place to talk about it as it would be off topic. Besides, I don't think I could change your mind about any subject, as, at least from my experience, you tend to be stubborn.

I apologize if this ends up coming off as rude.

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i just say we go back to what the dragonfly used to be....

 

I second this. The raid boss idea is great. However, I wouldn't trade it for the old dragonfly.

 

In single player, the threat of having your base burned down was part of the challenge. I feel like the point of multiplayer is being able to face these challenges together, not to have them outright removed from the game.

 

In other words, what's the point of multiplayer if the hardest parts of the game are missing?

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I third that should add the old dragonfly. And as with all other mobs, buff her health to 5500. But perhaps the new lava biome could still be a nest, where there would initially be about 5 lavae who would grow into dragonflies, and every summer each dragonfly would go and attack seperate groups of players.

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