The Celestial Idol and Portal

[loopuleasa]

This might be too harsh, even for me.

I remember people suggesting this change in the uncompromising mode discord and even there people didn't like it lol

Now that the ability to switch chars is in the game, there is never going back. The choice is made.

In live service games, convenience trumps over everything else in the end.

[Gashzer]

43 minutes ago, Anis5240 said:

ah yes imagine saying this with such a straight face, as if being a swap character is a title of honor /EXTREME SARCASM

It really is a title of honour. A perfect blend of swap abilities and stay in character abilities is chefs kiss!

[Frosty_Mentos]

No. Please no. I play a single character usually while I use many other characters more as resource farm characters.

There's no practical need in lategame to have character swapping nerfs after you get all the possible resource types, I need my Maxwell for the resource gathering, I need my Wicker for book providing. I need my Walter for rope cost reduction as well as Winona for her quick crafts.

I need many of these characters for the utility and that the game wouldn't feel too much of a drag on older worlds I play. You don't need or need to even care about this if you play this game for few hundred days and just move on to the next world. You really don't need to care about this unless this is just irking you because we who use the portal do this for those reasons.

[Guille6785]

can someone who is in favor of the celestial portal getting nerfed please explain what exactly the gameplay benefit of this would be?

for the 56095468th time: no, character swapping is not “efficient”, that hypothetical example of a pro player who switches characters every 2 minutes to “maximize upsides while getting none of the downsides” does not exist

[DegenerateFurry]

8 hours ago, Reiko24 said:

The point of the Celestial Portal is to give an option to change a character for people who got bored of the character they were playing.

Implementing the cooldown and the cost would make it actually fulfill this purpose, instead of being a machine to use other characters’ perks for a moment and then switch back.

No it isn't, not anymore. It's now the only way to change up your skill tree without restarting your world, which is vital since some perks are meant for the early-game and some are meant for post-rifts. That shouldn't be an expensive thing, but it also shouldn't be free, so the current system where you just give a moonrock idol (made with a purple gem) is good.

Also, Klei's been taking a different approach for discouraging swap characters: making them more worth playing on their own. This is infinitely better than just sweeping the problem of their sole purpose being a couple of craftables under the rug by locking swapping behind an excessively high resource cost. 

[HowlVoid]

19 minutes ago, Guille6785 said:

can someone who is in favor of the celestial portal getting nerfed please explain what exactly the gameplay benefit of this would be?

for the 56095468th time: no, character swapping is not “efficient”, that hypothetical example of a pro player who switches characters every 2 minutes to “maximize upsides while getting none of the downsides” does not exist

What if I don't want a game benefit, what if I want a game detriment?

Every time someone uses berry bush crafting as Wormwood and switches to another character, they should burst into flames (their father is gone why shouldn't they?) And burn their mega bases down.

[DegenerateFurry]

33 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

What if I don't want a game benefit, what if I want a game detriment?

Every time someone uses berry bush crafting as Wormwood and switches to another character, they should burst into flames (their father is gone why shouldn't they?) And burn their mega bases down.

Yeah, and if there's no Warly present in the world, his spices should turn into poisons! They do the opposite of their normal effects, and Volt Goat Chaud-Froid makes you get electrocuted whenever you attack something (like when you attack a charged voltgoat unprotected). 

For legal reasons, I must clarify that this is a joke.

[hyoton123]

Look I know people dont like to be told “just dont use it” but this really is “just dont use it.” There is no unintentional way to activate swapping and even when it’s enabled, you dont do it on accident. On the other hand i think there are strong reasons to keep it cheap (maybe even cheaper) because joining a server and having multiples of the same character is a little annoying. In any event I think theres strong arguments to make it available and weak arguments for making it pricey. (high cooldown i can see, though)

[Jakepeng99]

11 hours ago, Reiko24 said:

It should cost an Iridescent Gem instead of a Purple Gem.

After using the Celestial Portal, it will go on a 20 day cooldown for the person who used it.

Please not that material.

It will cause so much selfish people to take them from archives, its also annoying.

[Creatorofswamps]

22 minutes ago, Jakepeng99 said:

Please not that material.

It will cause so much selfish people to take them from archives, its also annoying.

What do you think about using an orange gem? It is expensive, but not too expensive, + this stone is used less often.

[Jakepeng99]

7 minutes ago, Creatorofswamps said:

What do you think about using an orange gem? It is expensive, but not too expensive, + this stone is used less often.

It should be renewable and fitting. A resource that noobs who swap all the time wont drain to extinction.

Not sure what it could be. 

[Prinha]

7 minutes ago, Jakepeng99 said:

Not sure what it could be. 

How about some moonrock and a purple gem? Sounds like a reasonably easy to farm renewable ressource that's still not super abundant.

[JaxckLl]

12 hours ago, Reiko24 said:

It should cost an Iridescent Gem instead of a Purple Gem.

After using the Celestial Portal, it will go on a 20 day cooldown for the person who used it.

 

The point of the Celestial Portal is to give an option to change a character for people who got bored of the character they were playing.

Implementing the cooldown and the cost would make it actually fulfill this purpose, instead of being a machine to use other characters’ perks for a moment and then switch back.

Absolutely not. Players should not be punished for reaching the point in the game where Moon Rocks & Purple Gems have become reliable. 

[Cheggf]

I'm not the biggest fan of requiring an opal. Opals are obnoxious to get, and anything that encourages people to steal the archive opals is a bad thing I think.

12 hours ago, Reiko24 said:

So the current moon idols would allow you to change your skilltree loadout, while the iridescent ones the whole character

I don't get this. I don't know why you would want the portal to become more expensive because its cheapness trivializes character choice, but are fine with the portal trivializing skill point choices. I see absolutely no difference at all between Wormwood starting with early game perks, swapping to the crafting branch to mass craft stuff, then swapping to the post-rift perks, and Woodie starting as the early game character, swapping to Wickerbottom to mass farm stuff, then swapping to whoever as the late game character. These are identical to me. 

[Well-met]

good idea

6 hours ago, Guille6785 said:

can someone who is in favor of the celestial portal getting nerfed please explain what exactly the gameplay benefit of this would be?

for the 56095468th time: no, character swapping is not “efficient”, that hypothetical example of a pro player who switches characters every 2 minutes to “maximize upsides while getting none of the downsides” does not exist

The idea that people abuse it to avoid downsides that come with commitment is very much real. It provides permanent limited structures, all-character-usable items and even free thulecite with wanda that you otherwise would never benefit from if there was a serious cost to respec. It's just too readily available and not costly at all.

if you choose not to abuse a loophole like this "out of principle" you get nothing in return. Not using exploits and queso just makes your game harder for no reason other than ""feeling good about yourself"" and that's exactly why everyone does it and why the paths of least resistance are always prefered no matter if they are morally questionable.

Perseverance and commitment should be rewarded in this game just like basically any videogame

[Evelo]

I've always hated the Celestial Portal. It ruins the impact of characters. Thankfully Klei seems to be (somewhat) doing away with cross pollination. Winona's catapults should never work unless a Winona is present. Other characters can benefit sure, but in multiplayer. In single player overcoming a character's downsides is integral to success, where as multiplayer allows others to make up for your weaknesses.

[Guille6785]

1 hour ago, Well-met said:

good idea

The idea that people abuse it to avoid downsides that come with commitment is very much real. It provides permanent limited structures, all-character-usable items and even free thulecite with wanda that you otherwise would never benefit from if there was a serious cost to respec. It's just too readily available and not costly at all.

if you choose not to abuse a loophole like this "out of principle" you get nothing in return. Not using exploits and queso just makes your game harder for no reason other than ""feeling good about yourself"" and that's exactly why everyone does it and why the paths of least resistance are always prefered no matter if they are morally questionable.

Perseverance and commitment should be rewarded in this game just like basically any videogame

you did not in any shape or form suggest a reward for sticking with a specific character

[Cheggf]

What downsides are you guys referring to? Klei hates downsides, nobody has any downsides. Wilson, Willow, WX, Woodie, Webber, Winona, Walter, and Wanda effectively have no drawbacks at all. Wendy, Wickerbottom, Wigfrid, Wortox, and Wurt have exceptionally small downsides. The only characters with notable downsides are Wolfgang, Wes, Maxwell, Wormwood, and Warly. Of the characters with notable downsides, 1 of them provides no benefit at all while he isn't present, 1 of them provides no benefit at all while he isn't present and he's the one people complain about swapping to after making Wickerbottom's books, 1 of them provides basically no benefit at all while he isn't present, and only 2 of them would really be "swapped" to, but even then swapping to them doesn't really provide much of an advantage over just not doing that. 

[lowercase skye]

This thread has made me realize I have never seen anyone use the Celestial Portal outside of a megabasing scenario. The only time I've used it outside of a megabase was to switch from lunar to shadow Walter for a Fuelweaver fight, which was a convenience I didn't actually need since there were 2 other players in the server. Is there something I'm missing that would somehow make it exceptionally overpowered and in need of a huge nerf? Are there actually people playing Winona and just building catapults at every possible boss arena in the first 20 days and then switching away to Wolfgang and breaking the game's progression balance with it? Does this actually exist? Is it any faster or more powerful than just sticking to your preferred character in the first place?

[Cheggf]

Just now, lowercase skye said:

This thread has made me realize I have never seen anyone use the Celestial Portal outside of a megabasing scenario. The only time I've used it outside of a megabase was to switch from lunar to shadow Walter for a Fuelweaver fight, which was a convenience I didn't actually need since there were 2 other players in the server. Is there something I'm missing that would somehow make it exceptionally overpowered and in need of a huge nerf? Are there actually people playing Winona and just building catapults at every possible boss arena in the first 20 days and then switching away to Wolfgang and breaking the game's progression balance with it? Does this actually exist?

The people complaining about swap characters are purely theatrical. They don't like hypothetical scenarios that nobody ever actually does. 

[DegenerateFurry]

To be honest, I only ever use the Celestial Portal to change perks, myself. If I want to switch character, I will generally do it by starting a new world. The option to switch characters is infrequently abused (outside of specific instances like Wickerbottom being turned into a book crafter for Maxwell, or people just swapping to Warly to make some spiced powdercakes and jelly and then swapping off), and it's becoming less of a problem with each skill tree they add. 

[Maxil20]

50 minutes ago, lowercase skye said:

Is it any faster or more powerful than just sticking to your preferred character in the first place?

The only scenario I have seen a Celestial Portal incorporated into a rush/speedrun gamestyle where I feel it genuinely made a difference that couldn't have been replicated without it was Guille's Day 14 CC speedrun. In it, he started as Wilson to rush an iridescent gem to power the archives before day 11, assembled the sanctum/altar (via beefalo), obtained the moonrocks there, built the portal and then quickly swapped to Warly to get a consistent potato for the astroggles, then swapped to Wolf to finish the speedrun. This is the only time I can think of where the portal was specifically beneficial for a route like this, and I think it's pretty telling the one time it's tempting is during a route where getting the materials is Directly next to the objectives you are doing anyway.


As others have mentioned, the "celestial portal problem" wasn't a problem because of the portal itself, it was because of the fact that characters after building/making items had Very little incentive to stay as that character via "personal perks" and that isn't good for them. Winona went from a character I went to to make some catapults and go back from to a character I now stay as to mass farm resources and utilize things like catapults/WINbots to their fullest potential. I'm hoping Warly gets a similar tweak with general improvements to himself and retaining his teamwide assets.

[viblym]

Making swapping more tedious isn't going to make Swap characters any more likable and shows a superficial understanding at the problem at hand, that puts more blame on people trying to have fun over making characters fun.

[SilverSpoon]

The isuue with character swapping is not the "swapping", but the "character".

I think Wickerbottom and Warly will improve like Winona with their upcoming skill trees, but I have to say that Wilson's skill tree was clearly unfinished. It would be better to buff or rework it, even if it's just gradually like Wormwood's skill tree.

[Chewabacca]

I'm in the crowd that doesn't even like the celestial portal and the cost of an iridescent gem is still too harsh for me. When you change the cost of character swapping to be that steep, nobody who uses it to change characters just because they don't like the one they're currently playing is going to use it, and a bunch of players who'd otherwise use it probably don't even know how they would get an iridescent gem. The group that's most likely to want to change characters in a world is made up of newer players who aren't familiar with all of the characters' playstyles yet, they're not just the 20k day megabasers. By making it cost an iridescent gem, you punish those people and reward only those who can come up with some convoluted strategy to make it worth that cost, the exact opposite of what you're trying to do. That being said, I wouldn't mind a cooldown on the portal so that you actually had to play as the character you're swapping to for a decent length of time.

15 hours ago, lowercase skye said:

This thread has made me realize I have never seen anyone use the Celestial Portal outside of a megabasing scenario.

Anecdotally I have heard enough Maxwell players advising each other to use the portal to get Wickerbottom's books to make me concerned, but I have no idea how often that actually happens.