Would you like skill trees to be... removed?!

[Sacco]

Yea, it sounds crazy, but as more and more skill trees are being added, many people are starting to complain about them, some saying that they are really bad for the game.

Obviously, skill trees won't be removed in any way possible, but would you like to see them removed?

[Frosty_Mentos]

Too much work was put into to be needed any removal. What is needed is the environment we survive and battle against to evolve as much as we're gaining damage and easier survival tactics. Bosses need rework, we need trickier enemies and more ranged annoyances to attack us. We have ranged weapons and so much utility that needs to be used somewhere somehow even without skill trees.

[Ohan]

im just fatigued by these endless character updates that are just excuses to keep buffing each character into oblivion to match the bar set by wanda/refresh max. 

I really dislike what the forums/community turn into because of these updates especially when its a popular survivor. 

id prefer more rift content instead or more RWYS-style overhauls of basic game mechanics that everyone can interact with and enjoy regardless of which survivor theyre playing or brand new mechanics like beefalo taming. 

I wouldve liked all or most of the issues survivors had to be covered by the refreshes  or small tweaks here and there afterwards so we couldve gotten real content updates instead of the full fledged refresh 2.0 cycle we’re in now. 

[ADM]

I like their content but not the execution. I don't really sit on two chairs I'm generally in favor of them but I do be annoyed that we've got 0 modifications as a whole or communication on if it'll change. And if that meant they won’t change at all then yeah I do find it very lackluster and concerning for the game state. But to answer there could be something as simple as a max insight config in the world config to softly disable them or reduce their potency early. Not that this is what I personally ask for but well, it's something.

[Quadratordo]

La frittata è fatta, as we'd say. As the other folks put it, we need challenges to match (and some rebalancing, I'd add; no amount of folks trying to meme on it will make this powercreep not a reality) all of the extra power characters got over the years; with more than just the odd boss slapped on a new worldgen piece, but instead with environmental and mechanical overhauls; the danger that the environment in itself poses was a big part of what made DS what it was, but with all these extra options and raw numbers, they're made ever more trivial, even beyond the fact that, of course, more experienced players can deal with them anyways... but that's beside the point.

[Sacco]

2 minutes ago, Quadratordo said:

La frittata è fatta, as we'd say. As the other folks put it, we need challenges to match (and some rebalancing, I'd add; no amount of folks trying to meme on it will make this powercreep not a reality) all of the extra power characters got over the years; with more than just the odd boss slapped on a new worldgen piece, but instead with environmental and mechanical overhauls; the danger that the environment in itself poses was a big part of what made DS what it was, but with all these extra options and raw numbers, they're made ever more trivial, even beyond the fact that, of course, more experienced players can deal with them anyways... but that's beside the point.

oh daje un italiano.

Yea you're right, i think all seasons need some sort of overhaul...

[Maxil20]

1 hour ago, Quadratordo said:

the danger that the environment in itself poses was a big part of what made DS what it was

I never see DS like that. DS was a game designed about what in the environment is dangerous, and how to counter it. It can be difficult, but once you figure out how to work around the challenge, it becomes considerably easier.

You can throw new threats at players and it will startle them at first, but players will quickly learn and adapt, and what's left is the long-term repercussions of said new threat.

I think a good example of this is Hamlet's lush season. It will catch just about every person off guard, and the only clothing option that protects it that's native to the DLC, the gas mask, is terrible at it long term, and camping by oscillating fans to counter it is not ideal. Instead, you mainly rely on anti-allergy foods/items to deal with it, but once you know that, lush season later on turns into a nettle check where you carry around 20 or so nettles to get through the entire season. The only other threat in particular are the large bramble obstructions that appear, but are moreso an annoyance at best as they are straightforward enough to break.

I don't oppose the idea of new season mechanics (provided they are not base destructing, which I would really hope Klei at this point knows what is and isn't), though at the end of the day, once the shock factor wears off and people get accustomed to how it works, it will really just become "use X item in conjunction with This to counter this new gimmick" and we will basically be back to square one again.

[arubaro]

I think is interesting to yave different configurations to make each character have different strats or gameplays. Is even logical considering how the game allows you to play the same character than other player.

I do like how each character hae an unique ui and distribution of perks instead of being c&p 

What i dont like is how they were approached. Tons of free powercreep, removal of downsides, bland unlocking mechanic and the non sense of having op perks day1 forever, mechanics that should be base game for every character locked behind a character's skill (willow's smouldering mechanic when a enemy dies on fire), band aid fix for weak characters and bland skill trees for strong ones (and wilson), perks that makes rift content and planar mechanic lose sense (is suppose to be harder than early game...)

I read from some people that woodie's tree is the best one, a skill tree which has tons of useless perks, half of them being downsides removed, etc, that can tell how bad are the skill trees in general

I was hyped for the end of the character refreshes because i though they will be focused on content, small qol updates and some fixes for weak characters and mechanics. Instead we got another round of not planned at all refreshes for everyone, including bloated characters.

Is heartbreaking to be so hyped for the future content to go down to not even wanting to check most content updates. I have played more hours when moon quay island was added than in the whole skill tree + easy rift mode arc

[Mike23Ua]

First of all… this thread just sounds completely rude to all the tireless effort the developers have tried to put into satisfying everyone as best that they can with skill trees.

Second of all: We’re Well past the Halfway point to just erase them now.  

If Klei pumps out 2-3 reworks at a time, we will be done by the end of next years roadmap.

Exciting! 
(then ReReworks and Skill tree Part 2 will likely happen  but I hope not..)

[Evelo]

1 hour ago, Ohan said:

id prefer more rift content instead or more RWYS-style overhauls of basic game mechanics that everyone can interact with and enjoy regardless of which survivor theyre playing or brand new mechanics like beefalo taming. 

Took the words right out of my mouth Ohan. Well said.

[Bumber64]

The more interesting question would be if we would've preferred they not have been created in the first place. We can't get the development time back now, nor any content they were traded for. Even if some stuff were to be salvaged into base kit, the rest is unworkable in any way that wouldn't amount to a type of skill tree. (E.g., craftable upgrades = craftable insight.)

[XenRadon]

No. I don't  like skill trees to be removed. I don't think they are bad for the game's health, because they are free updates.

I like more power from Klei, even a little.

 

 

[BezKa]

I wanted them gone ever since they first appeared. Do I think it will happen? Not at all. Too many people love pointless buffs for that to happen.

[Chewabacca]

I just wish that insight automatically reset at the start of each world, I wouldn't want the trees gone.

[Dr. Safety]

I think Klei should be more open to QoL character changes. I love the skill trees, but I realized recently that it isn't because of the OP new stuff that characters can do, but rather the QoL changes whose absences caused me to dislike playing characters in the first place. I talk about how I am a big Winona main due to her recent skill tree, but the main reason why I didn't play her before is that none of her stuff was portable. This one change was enough for me to main her. If they had just given her the ability to do that years ago, she would have been in a much better place than she was before the skill tree.

Do you guys remember when they gave a little buff to Wortox was Wickerbottom's skill tree came out (the one that let him teleport across the map if he had enough souls)? I wish they were more open to that kind of update. More frequent, small little QoL changes. Instead they wait until years later when they have a big update for the character. Once they finish the skill trees, I hope that the character updates will be done, and they will instead do mini QoL changes that come out with other big updates. 

[Well-met]

Hoping they get "removed" is nothing short of wonderland nonsense.

There is however an opportunity to tweak how insight is handed out and how worlds handle trees.

[Just Ragnar]

10 minutes ago, Dr. Safety said:

I think Klei should be more open to QoL character changes. I love the skill trees, but I realized recently that it isn't because of the OP new stuff that characters can do, but rather the QoL changes whose absences caused me to dislike playing characters in the first place. I talk about how I am a big Winona main due to her recent skill tree, but the main reason why I didn't play her before is that none of her stuff was portable. This one change was enough for me to main her. If they had just given her the ability to do that years ago, she would have been in a much better place than she was before the skill tree.

Do you guys remember when they gave a little buff to Wortox was Wickerbottom's skill tree came out (the one that let him teleport across the map if he had enough souls)? I wish they were more open to that kind of update. More frequent, small little QoL changes. Instead they wait until years later when they have a big update for the character. Once they finish the skill trees, I hope that the character updates will be done, and they will instead do mini QoL changes that come out with other big updates. 

I think QoL updates/small tweaks are really cool too.

Something like, being able to hold a torch while dismantling your Warly crock pot would be nice.
 

[Evelo]

They wont be removed. I dislike them but I would like them a lot more if they were less rework like and more minor bonuses to enhance certain playstyles.

Example: Wolfgang can choose to Boost his damage, be less scared/gain more sanity around friends, or increase workout stuffs. That way no new items are added, the bonuses are minor, and players can pick and choose what they want most. Do this for all characters and I will be a happy camper.

[NPCMaxwell]

I don't really use skilltrees (despite Wilson, IF I play Wilson) but I wouldn't want them to die either ^^ So I voted no. The devs have actually put ideas time and effort into them. Just because I would rather have characters always use a base-set of abilities doesn't mean other people don't adore the idea of collection points and unlocking stuff.

[Mike23Ua]

45 minutes ago, Well-met said:

Hoping they get "removed" is nothing short of wonderland nonsense.

There is however an opportunity to tweak how insight is handed out and how worlds handle trees.

Alternatively… there’s also the option of harder difficulty modes, making us have harsher more meaningful downsides that are heavily impactful to how we play the game.

I do not blame Klei for wanting to make every character accessible to anyone.

But Klei Entertainment is a development company that has many many years of experience with creating RogueLite/like experiences, I’m not just talking about DS/DST like almost every game this company puts out either dabbles into, or goes fully into this genre of gaming.

So I don’t want to get anyone’s hopes up, but just as easily as they Nerfed Wonkeys curse and how ruthless Wavey Jones was in their original beta versions…

They can just as easily Re-store that under a harder setting.

Funnily enough they even have at least a early test build for “harder Wolfgang, and Harder Wendy”

their original rework concepts of Wolfgang losing might when hit and Wendy needing to be close to dead to get effective Abigail etc..

I have a feeling Klei’s main focus right now is to make the cast of characters enjoyable for players of any skill level..

But that doesn’t mean more challenging versions of that character can’t be offered up in something like “Misery Mode”

And as a Wendy Main- I’d prefer that anytime I let Abigail get killed I lost portions of my own health core (the actual core, needing booster shot to restore) and any time I used the “dismiss” prompt on Abigail’s flower ripping it up (that’s the actual animation she performs by the way..) I’d need to craft a brand new flower.

This is MISERY MODE.. and it’s something Klei can offer up outside of making the character Miserable for people who want to play as her outside of this mode and it’s more punishing downsides.

[dengta72]

The addition of skill trees increases the complexity of the characters, which increases the time it takes for players to get familiar with a character, which is not so good to some extent. However, as far as I know, many players are attracted by the character's background story and will only play a certain character (I have 4,000 hours, but I only play 4 or 5 characters, and I spent 3,000 hours on one of them). I like the addition of skill trees very much.

[Quadratordo]

22 hours ago, Maxil20 said:

I never see DS like that. DS was a game designed about what in the environment is dangerous, and how to counter it. It can be difficult, but once you figure out how to work around the challenge, it becomes considerably easier.

You can throw new threats at players and it will startle them at first, but players will quickly learn and adapt, and what's left is the long-term repercussions of said new threat

Unless I'm missing something obvious here (likely), first part's more or less what I said except it's better worded, but that last statement is perfectly spot on; environmental threats will become easily manageable as they are experienced, but their worth as good additions is seen both immediately and in the long-term. DS Winter nailed it excellently: you had stunted regrowth, exclusive encounters and a lot more, all wrapped in a sweeping aesthetic change. It's true, it went from a harrowing hurdle to something that an experienced player could reliably account for, but it never got reduced to solving one single issue to pretending it's just autumn 2. Focus simply shifted from Winter's initial difficulty to how well it held up in every other aspect; this is important to mention, as features have to be designed to bring something to the table of players of all levels, with the obvious caveau being the player being at least good enough to actually get access to them.

However, there's been many additions of features over time which don't really play by previous ones' rules (banana bushes, stone fruit bushes and especially kelp being examples relevant to winter) and all of the extra power and possibilities that each character got over the years on top of that. Discussing how good or bad, how well they fit in the grand scheme of things and whether or not to change each of these additions would be too much, but the gist is that environmental challenges haven't grown to match; those that have been added, have mostly been relegated to post-rift content, while most of the powerful new tools can be accessed way earlier, some (like skilltrees, which for the record I'd not want to see removed, but overhauled in how they fit in the game) can even be accessed right out of the Portal. I am aware that rift content can be activated right away, but i'll pre-emptively nip that one for the folks stumbling in: one has to consider these features as they work by default, not how they can be modified to be; or else, the door for unproductive and antagonizing arguments opens, such as countering issues taken with heavily destructive features (coughwormcough) with the same ''you could just turn it off''... what would be the point of even arguing about such features then?

 

[HowlVoid]

You can take all the skill trees except wormwood. 

I always laugh internally when I see people who want to remove skill trees because the rest of the world really doesn't give a f-.

I read YouTube, Facebook and discord comments and this forum can be in its own little world sometimes.

[whiteking]

1/5？ Is 1 out of every 5 players completely disappointed with it?

[Bumber64]

1 hour ago, whiteking said:

1/5？ Is 1 out of every 5 players completely disappointed with it?

It's potentially worse than that. I voted "no" just because we wouldn't get the time back. Doesn't mean I've got a positive opinion of them.

You've got Willow, who isn't anything special without her tree. And then you've got Maxwell, who surpasses skill tree Willow without having one yet. Walter's skills are all crafts, and Woby's badges could just as well be WX circuits.

This wasn't a viable way to balance characters, and I can't imagine what Maxwell and Wickerbottom's trees will even look like. (Wickerbottom loses slightly less sanity from reading books. Okay, what else? A bunch of skills to buff each book separately?) They're already interesting and complete characters after their reworks. You'd have to take things away first, which defeats the whole point.

But maybe the forums aren't representative of the player base. You're probably more likely to join to voice an opinion of something you want changed than just to give praise. Maybe people are just being dramatic because they don't like the tree their character got stuck with, and would rather nobody got any.

Still, I can't see how giving strong characters completely meaningless skills is better than just fixing the incomplete and weak characters. If the intent was a sense of progression after starting new worlds, it's a good idea with a bad implementation. It can't work with survivors so unbalanced in power.