Klei I really gotta ask you about this really old game design choice with walls and statues/structure path finding

[Frosty_Mentos]

Why do we have to build tables to block away creatures? Why do they have to attack and destroy stone or thulecite walls by attacks if they don't have enough strength? Can't you just make Moonstone, thulecite and rock walls take reduced damage from mobs instead? Tables are a... a choice to make pathing issues for creatures alright, could just buff health for walls also or as I said reduced damage from mobs, or have high health and have dealt higher damage from players to remain same manipulated for decor or other reasons.

 

Yea I mean, this is funny how this works but this is also really. Just make walls actually useful, it's not rocket science. Tables and structures aren't walls.

[Mr Giggio]

It always felt weird how walls don't do the job of walls, they decor

If u want walls build statues, that are decor, to be walls

lol

[Frosty_Mentos]

19 minutes ago, Mr Giggio said:

It always felt weird how walls don't do the job of walls, they decor

If u want walls build statues, that are decor, to be walls

lol

And that is true. The thing is, I feel like as a community we got a bit of hypocrisy of not saying that walls should be a bit more useful just like in these cases, but we settle with the fact that we just use tables and statues as walls instead.

[arubaro]

22 minutes ago, Mr Giggio said:

It always felt weird how walls don't do the job of walls, they decor

If u want walls build statues, that are decor, to be walls

lol

I think the plan was to make the player use them as distraction for things like houds. Hounds would atack walls while you deal with them in less numbers at once and later you simply repair them. 

The problem is how little HP they have and how expensive they are to repair to the point of being cheaper to place a new one...

The worst part is how later they added stuff like the moon rock base event...and important step on fighting CC that needs a rework

[ADM]

Controversial or not I think mobs of the Moon Stone event should be able to break non-wall hammerables if its in their way and they're stuck for a bit. Then of course, make walls more capable of tanking because it is true that walls of better materials aren't actually much greater than stone ones, reduced dmg would indeed be a good start.

This, plus rework the difficulty of the event in some capacity because alone this one is difficult to manage in comparison when you have 3 players defending it. I don't think there is any scaling to it.

Surely this will make a fair share of players upset that Moon Rock farming is getting nerfed if statues or what no longer block or just that the process of making this staff can no longer be (so easily) skipped... myself I don't care but I don't want this just to bother those. I want it because the event is poorly presented and running. If we want Moon Rock (and I do), we should just have more elegant sources for it, but by all mean this event could get so much better than a 'must cheese'.

[grm9]

10 hours ago, arubaro said:

The worst part is how later they added stuff like the moon rock base event...and important step on fighting CC that needs a rework

it's not nearly as bad as how people make it seem

[arubaro]

11 minutes ago, grm9 said:

it's not nearly as bad as people make it seem

 

I never said you cant do it neither you video shows why walls, as defensive items, havent got a bad design

[Frosty_Mentos]

12 minutes ago, grm9 said:

it's not nearly as bad as people make it seem

 

 

1 minute ago, arubaro said:

I never said you cant do it neither you video shows why walls, as defensive items, havent got a bad design

Not a great solution when there's cheaper longterm setups tbh. I mean, it works but walls are still trash by design if there's an alternative that doesn't as much maintenance or work to make and maintain. For those that do like one time runs yea sure it doesn't matter, but for those that do longer worlds this isn't a solution for the many.

The abuse of pathfinding is big and happens a lot, so it's no surprise that people would rather pick fossils or tables as defensives.

Unless creatures had ability to break structures and they would have HP or amount of attacks before destroying, I don't like this enough to point out the silliness of the game design when it comes to walls.

So, better it had damage requirement tiers for mobs on wall breaking imo. Wood and grass walls being quite simple and could be broken by many, while more fortified are basically indestructible when those creatures were to attack them.

Wall damage requirement could add new depth if used for bosses or against certain creatures. Some people like making Treeguard enclosures but they keep breaking walls.

If hounds can't break stone walls then werepigs would have that damage, if it's thulecite then it has more protection than either have the damage to deal with it.

[arubaro]

8 minutes ago, Frosty_Mentos said:

 

Not a great solution when there's cheaper longterm setups tbh. I mean, it works but walls are still trash by design if there's an alternative that doesn't as much maintenance or work to make and maintain. For those that do like one time runs yea sure it doesn't matter, but for those that do longer worlds this isn't a solution for the many.

The abuse of pathfinding is big and happens a lot, so it's no surprise that people would rather pick fossils or tables as defensives.

Unless creatures had ability to break structures and they would have HP or amount of attacks before destroying, I don't like this enough to point out the silliness of the game design when it comes to walls.

So, better it had damage requirement tiers for mobs on wall breaking imo. Wood and grass walls being quite simple and could be broken by many, while more fortified are basically indestructible when those creatures were to attack them.

Wall damage requirement could add new depth if used for bosses or against certain creatures. Some people like making Treeguard enclosures but they keep breaking walls.

If hounds can't break stone walls then werepigs would have that damage, if it's thulecite then it has more protection than either have the damage to deal with it.

Some people play long term worlds and hate that permament set ups based on exploiting the poor AI

[Frosty_Mentos]

11 minutes ago, arubaro said:

Some people play long term worlds and hate that permament set ups based on exploiting the poor AI

Would need more voice of those people to tell that. But that's not the topic rn, it's more about what should Klei do with walls to make them and each of their tier more relevant to gameplay.

[arubaro]

45 minutes ago, Frosty_Mentos said:

Would need more voice of those people to tell that. But that's not the topic rn, it's more about what should Klei do with walls to make them and each of their tier more relevant to gameplay.

Is relevant to the topic since the moonrock base is a minigame about defending a point and walls were designed as defence but fails on that in some aspects

[Maxil20]

I don’t personally mind sculptures/structures serving as unbreakable walls, but I do agree it would be nice if normal walls got a special effect of reducing damage they take specifically from mob attacks, with high multipliers for moonrock/thulecite (and maybe just making dreadstone impossible to break from traditional mob attacks, or have some sort of regen mechanic to repair them to the wall state they were in).

I wouldn’t say walls are like the worst thing for mob defense, at least. While there are a good chunk of mobs that do break walls, there are also a lot that don’t. In those cases, walls are usually the much more preferable choice, especially with how their loading/unloading mechanics work making it extremely difficult for mobs to escape the pen unless you have a significant amount crammed into an area compared to other “wall” setups.

 

[chirsg]

No one on this thread would be telling the truth if they said the moonstone event was conventionally fair. The event is completely unfair and if it takes breaking the game to complete it, then I call that even. The game plays unfair, I play unfair. Simple.

[Frosty_Mentos]

34 minutes ago, chirsg said:

No one on this thread would be telling the truth if they said the moonstone event was conventionally fair. The event is completely unfair and if it takes breaking the game to complete it, then I call that even. The game plays unfair, I play unfair. Simple.

It is one of most early DST concepts of events tbh. I think this might be THE first event we have gotten into the game that we activate, no? Apart Shadow pieces.

[Ohan]

Blocking with furniture is wacky. 
 

but i dont think theres anything wrong with blocking with heavy objects like sculptures and cave-in boulders. 

especially not boulders. They look super appropriate as blockers for small-medium mobs. 

If we had a sculpture sketch that was just a pillar, sculptures as blockers would also look less goofy. 

A row of big marble pillars blocking a bunch of hounds is not immersion breaking at all. 
 

—-

both of these blockers, especially the boulders also take a ton of materials and/or time to set up. So its earned. 

[Dr. Safety]

The constant is a strange place. The walls are decoration and the decorations are walls

[NPCMaxwell]

24 minutes ago, Dr. Safety said:

The constant is a strange place. The walls are decoration and the decorations are walls

That's what has always been irritating me so much that I stopped building walls the moment I noticed this xP But then I also barely use decorations (besides adoring "natural" decorations like statuemaxwell and always respawning it per console when my stupid shadowservants minded it)

[cybers2001]

1 hour ago, Maxil20 said:

I don’t personally mind sculptures/structures serving as unbreakable walls, but I do agree it would be nice if normal walls got a special effect of reducing damage they take specifically from mob attacks, with high multipliers for moonrock/thulecite (and maybe just making dreadstone impossible to break from traditional mob attacks, or have some sort of regen mechanic to repair them to the wall state they were in).

I wouldn’t say walls are like the worst thing for mob defense, at least. While there are a good chunk of mobs that do break walls, there are also a lot that don’t. In those cases, walls are usually the much more preferable choice, especially with how their loading/unloading mechanics work making it extremely difficult for mobs to escape the pen unless you have a significant amount crammed into an area compared to other “wall” setups.

 

I would love to have self-repairing dreadstone walls

[Frosty_Mentos]

3 hours ago, arubaro said:

Is relevant to the topic since the moonrock base is a minigame about defending a point and walls were designed as defence but fails on that in some aspects

I feel like part of the relevancy should be with actual survival defenses too, like hound waves or seasonal bosses. I wish there was a way to just contain moose and make her stuck in a pen without losing walls.

[Ridley]

8 hours ago, grm9 said:

it's not nearly as bad as people make it seem

 

That would probably be a lot harder if it wasn't so bugged. I'm guessing fixing that is low on the priorities.

[Frosty_Mentos]

52 minutes ago, Ridley said:

That would probably be a lot harder if it wasn't so bugged. I'm guessing fixing that is low on the priorities.

I feel like this event needs least rework or change, considering it's a good pig skin/meat/moonrock farm as for it is, plus providing moon staves.

But making walls relevant would be a better choice than fixing pathfinding for regular mobs that we farm. Unless they're planning something with mobs AI in general idk

[DegenerateFurry]

6 hours ago, chirsg said:

No one on this thread would be telling the truth if they said the moonstone event was conventionally fair. The event is completely unfair and if it takes breaking the game to complete it, then I call that even. The game plays unfair, I play unfair. Simple.

It doesn't take breaking the game to complete it, it just takes all the stone in the Oasis desert. Sufficient wall spam will overpower any number of hounds and werepigs for long enough for the event to complete. You can also do it with a more reasonable amount of wall spam as certain characters. Maxwell's shadow sneak works incredibly well during the event since it prevents the mobs from even attacking the walls, allowing your duelists to clean them up safely, and then there's Wolfgang with his double damage mechanic who can just blend their bones into a fine mulch before they do any real damage. 

That said, I do think walls should be buffed. Hay walls need to stay weak, but stone walls should actually be made worth the stone, and repairing them should be cheaper than completely rebuilding them.

[lowercase skye]

I always feel like I'm living in a different world whenever the moonstone event comes up. It's just 3-4 layers of stone walls around the thing and you tank the hounds and werepigs as they come, easy. Stuff like statues or structures to block it off are far from necessary, and I find such a thing so tedious that I'd rather just keep repairing my stone walls between each event than go through all that.

[SapoLover]

If repairing a wall with walls upgraded the walls to the next stage instead of just adding an amount of hp, they would be much better. (really, why repairing a destroyed wall with a wall is not enough to make it a normal wall again?) 

[RozeMeteor]

I never did the moonstone event, still have anyone tried just planting pinecones, let em grow and them set them on fire during the event to scare mobs ? i remember seeing that somewhere but i don't have any more proof. Walls sound more like trouble than anything userfull unless it's a farm or decoration. But i personally don't see much players using it for defense as well even if they buffed they hp, i mean why they would ? you can deal with anything not spending resources on them unless i'm missing something them feel free to correct me please.