CHANGE CRAB KING

[Theukon-dos]

33 minutes ago, Guille6785 said:

This is a recurring theme with all of the major bosses prior to the celestial champion frankly, the community writes off bosses like bee queen, dragonfly, fuelweaver, etc. for being poorly designed simply because they aren't willing to approach them in a different way

Ehhhhhhhhhhh. partially disagree.

 

While many of these bosses do have alternate ways to deal with the problems they introduce. I would argue that very few, if any of these are ever actually intuitive for the player to figure out, unless they have perfect knowledge of how the game mechanics work.

Take Bee Queen for example. Yes, there are ways to separate Her Majesty from her loyal soldiers. Namely by exploiting the two's pathfinding to fight Bee Queen Alone while the Grumble Bees navigate a maze of walls of fences. But genuine question, how is a player going in blind EVER expected to figure this out? Even assuming that the player knows enough about mob AI to know they just go around walls, even if they can fly. Why would they assume that Bee Queen is the exception to this but her grumbles aren't? And this is a theme that continues with other bosses too.

You can use the Ice Staff too kill Dragonfly's Lavae. But this is one of only two elemental interactions that exist in the game, and the only other instance being the ability to interrupt Klaus' spells by using a staff of the other color on the casting deer. The chance for the player to intuit that freezing Lavae kills them is next to none.

Fuelweaver- Actually no. Fuelweaver's a good fight, those people are just wrong. I'll agree that the amount he heals from woven shadows can be way too much for a single player to deal with without a combat-focused character. But that's my only complaint with that fight.

I'm sure there are other examples; I'm not sure your stance on Toadstool though. But just becuase there are "other options" doesn't mean the player can be reasonably expected to figure them out.

Also, keep in mind that boss fights in DST are expensive. Sure, it may not feel that way when you can reliably go into a boss fight with a rusty paperclip and beat it with your eyes closed. But think about what all you need for a boss fight. Armor, healing, weapons. Usually a good stockpile of those aswell. All lost of you scuff up a boss fight. And that's assuming you have anything to revive with and aren't loosing your entire world instead (bar endless mode, obviously).

 

Don't Starve is just a really, really bad game for learning its boss fights.

[HowlVoid]

1 hour ago, Guille6785 said:

This is a recurring theme with all of the major bosses prior to the celestial champion frankly, the community writes off bosses like bee queen, dragonfly, fuelweaver, etc. for being poorly designed simply because they aren't willing to approach them in a different way

It's not like the game has a complex combat system. There isn't much too figure out. "New ways" to fight bosses usually boils down to using different items. I'd hardly call it innovative.

[grm9]

14 minutes ago, Theukon-dos said:

Take Bee Queen for example. Yes, there are ways to separate Her Majesty from her loyal soldiers. Namely by exploiting the two's pathfinding to fight Bee Queen Alone while the Grumble Bees navigate a maze of walls of fences. But genuine question, how is a player going in blind EVER expected to figure this out?

they don't need to, they can use lunar fire/bramble husk/abigail/catapults/pan flute/bunnymen/scare song/shadow prison/moon shrooms/moose/tentacles/spiders/merms

15 minutes ago, Theukon-dos said:

You can use the Ice Staff too kill Dragonfly's Lavae. But this is one of only two elemental interactions that exist in the game, and the only other instance being the ability to interrupt Klaus' spells by using a staff of the other color on the casting deer

they could've tried to freeze them to get some time and realised that they can kill them that way, you can also kill them normally if you have a damage multiplier

16 minutes ago, Theukon-dos said:

I'll agree that the amount he heals from woven shadows can be way too much for a single player to deal with without a combat-focused character

the point is to prevent him from eating them

17 minutes ago, Theukon-dos said:

Also, keep in mind that boss fights in DST are expensive

tbh i'd recommend practicing hard parts in all games by reloading a copy of a save/setting up a test save through console/cheat engine to not waste time on running back to the boss or getting stuff for fighting it for every attempt

2 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

"New ways" to fight bosses usually boils down to using different items. I'd hardly call it innovative

better than walking to the side thrice to stagger the boss and hold F for 10 seconds regardless of what you have, there are also some more complex things like syncing FW's timers so he does mind control right before unseen hands, cancelling CK's heal, dodging bone cage etc.

[HowlVoid]

10 minutes ago, grm9 said:

better than walking to the side thrice to stagger the boss and hold F for 10 seconds regardless of what you have, there are also some more complex things like syncing FW's timers so he does mind control right before unseen hands, cancelling CK's heal, dodging bone cage etc.

better? Maybe. But not by much, the more items you tack on the worse it is because this game makes item juggling a chore (especially on console). So it tends to remain simple if not simpler than doing it without said item (ex: using Ice staff to freeze larvae is easier than kiting without it/assuming no walls). 

Also note, the message I replied to specifically mentioned certain bosses with easy patterns. Fw was mentioned because of obvious reasons.

Edited April 27 by HowlVoid

[grm9]

3 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

better? Maybe. But not by much, the more items you tack on the worse it is because this game makes item juggling a chore (especially on console)

there are never more than 1 item per equipment slot required though, FW requires a weapon, magi and armor, BQ requires a weapon, speedboost and armor, dfly requires a weapon and armor

7 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

Also note, the message I replied to specifically mentioned certain bosses with easy patterns

because they're puzzles with many solutions, fighting them isn't the hard part unless you want it to be, since you can always do enraged dfly and kite BQ

[HowlVoid]

15 minutes ago, grm9 said:

there are never more than 1 item per equipment slot required though, FW requires a weapon, magi and armor, BQ requires a weapon, speedboost and armor, dfly requires a weapon and armo

Untrue, fw can be done without most items. And has become more popular to do without telepoofing and using a nightmare amulet.

 

Same with BQ, a quick youtube search will show that as characters gain their skill trees they can do boss without those items.

Also this is the second I've mentioned that I replied to a comment specifically not including FW.

15 minutes ago, grm9 said:

 

 

Edited April 27 by HowlVoid

[Ridley]

4 hours ago, Wonz said:

It's not about being difficult. This boss just sucks. It's not fun, games are for fun, it misses the point.

I agree.

[Guille6785]

1 hour ago, Theukon-dos said:

While many of these bosses do have alternate ways to deal with the problems they introduce. I would argue that very few, if any of these are ever actually intuitive for the player to figure out

this doesn't go against what I said, I think the bosses are horribly unintuitive too

[Capybara007]

3 hours ago, Guille6785 said:

This is a recurring theme with all of the major bosses prior to the celestial champion frankly, the community writes off bosses like bee queen, dragonfly, fuelweaver, etc. for being poorly designed simply because they aren't willing to approach them in a different way

 

[Reecitz]

If more bosses get altered, even just a tiny smidgen bit, @grm9 will continue complaining that things are becoming "easy" or "boring". 

Maybe this time, things will become easy enough to convince them to actually play the very game they want to defend so badly or, assuming they're not lying about playing it, stop playing it and leave the community, or find a different game to play. Either outcome could result in silencing the yapping. 

One can only dream. 

[SSneaky]

2 hours ago, Theukon-dos said:

You can use the Ice Staff too kill Dragonfly's Lavae. But this is one of only two elemental interactions that exist in the game, and the only other instance being the ability to interrupt Klaus' spells by using a staff of the other color on the casting deer.

"WHAT you CAN do THAT" x2

[Guille6785]

15 hours ago, Capybara007 said:

 

my argument had literally nothing to do with how I fight the bosses, it's about the expectations that most players have going into very unconventionally designed fights

Edited April 28 by Guille6785

[Valase]

When Klei reworked Wicker, I fought CK and had a lot of fun, then I decided to fight (on the same world) it again and realized that it had no drops besides its meat. If as a reward it had one or two sunken chests with the same loot table as AG, I think that people would love the boss a little bit more.

[grm9]

10 hours ago, HowlVoid said:

Untrue, fw can be done without most items. And has become more popular to do without telepoofing and using a nightmare amulet

that was the point though? magi is also not required but preventing him from eating any woven shadows isn't consistent in that case iirc and you obviously can do him without a weapon or armor, but no one does that because it's pointless

10 hours ago, HowlVoid said:

Same with BQ, a quick youtube search will show that as characters gain their skill trees they can do boss without those items

ik, i was talking about playing as a default character without own strats, obviously you don't need anything if you're e.g. spamming shadow prison

9 hours ago, Reecitz said:

If more bosses get altered, even just a tiny smidgen bit, @grm9 will continue complaining that things are becoming "easy" or "boring"

i've literally suggested how FW could be made optionally easier without making the fight boring or riskless, someone suggested making nightmare lights interact with unseen hands and freezing FW and i wouldn't even mind that, since i'll never make them anyway and there's still an option to do the fight without them and it'd be better anyway

9 hours ago, Reecitz said:

Maybe this time, things will become easy enough to convince them to actually play the very game they want to defend so badly

i do play the game

9 hours ago, Reecitz said:

Either outcome could result in silencing the yapping

why is trying to prevent people from taking fun away from many people bad?

Edited April 28 by grm9

[00petar00]

  

On 4/26/2024 at 5:44 PM, grm9 said:

is a boss requiring practice automatically bad?

@RidleyIs completely on point here, why should someone need to rollback and practice the fight? It makes no sense that you argue against making the fight easier when you are the player that will play the beta and rollback until you can do the fight perfectly, you need to realize that you are the exception and not the rule.

The point you bring up is that it is boring to obtain resources for the fight which is what makes fights more difficult and you are cutting that part out. Players have limited time and don't usually practice new boss fights, so If too many rollbacks are required it is bad. If anyone had creative mode and could spawn healing food, armor and weapons they would all be able to kill a boss after enough attempts but they don't have that in regular playthrough.

I would argue that boss requiring practice is automatically bad If it is that difficult because it becomes easy after practice. I am not a speedrunner and I don't want to practice bosses with rollbacks because usually I bring up that "uncompromising" joke of a player is doing the same and complaining that the game is easy when it is actually hard for anyone that isn't reading patch notes or playing beta versions and rolling back boss fights for 10+ times until they learn the patterns and don't get hit. The foundation of DST is built on knowledge you acquire making the game much easier and players bypass that are often complaining on the forums how the game is too easy.

I just play the game and do the fights at my own pace and over time I get better. It isn't logical to argue that FW or Crab King need to stay the same and that it is a fun fight just because it might be for a couple of people that have invested enough time into these fights. I do agree that FW is a much better fight for someone with experience but really terrible for newer players that haven't attempted the fight much.

I don't really enjoy crab king fight and often use bees when I am solo or rollback because other players want to fight it normally. The fight isn't that difficult with 1-2 more players that know what to do but it is often the case that they don't and I can't usually kill claws on my own before they deal a lot of damage to  boat and this requires a lot of logs to repair.

  

Edited April 28 by 00petar00

[grm9]

49 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

It makes no sense that you argue against making the fight easier when you are the player that will play the beta and rollback until you can do the fight perfectly

i haven't ever got to play a beta and practice fighting a boss on it because i haven't witnessed the betas from back when they were adding hard bosses, new bosses don't require knowledge nor practice so they end up being a boring waste of time, BQ requires knowledge but people hate it anyway, FW allows you to choose to either use knowledge and a lot of prep or knowledge and practice 

52 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

The point you bring up is that it is boring to obtain resources for the fight which is what makes fights more difficult and you are cutting that part out

by hard i meant hard and fun, something making it hard to not fall asleep from boredom isn't fun and is bad

55 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

I would argue that boss requiring practice is automatically bad If it is that difficult because it becomes easy after practice

nvm ig since there still are ways to kill FW, CK etc. with knowledge and without practice, practicing is often fun, that's half the reason souls-like games exist, except they only allow you to practice, unlike FW and CK, which you could kill either by using brightshade staff, lazy explorer, nightmare amulet etc. 1st try and bees or practicing to do them with a weapon and armor and sanity and insanity food in case of FW and boats in case of CK

58 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

I can't usually kill claws on my own before they deal a lot of damage to  boat and this requires a lot of logs to repair

you're supposed to place a new boat if the durability of the boat that you're currently on is too low

59 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

I am not a speedrunner and I don't want to practice bosses with rollbacks because usually I bring up that "uncompromising" joke of a player is doing the same and complaining that the game is easy

i don't complain about bosses being too easy because they either aren't or weren't at some point, but killing new bosses on 1st or 2nd try isn't hard so they end up being a boring waste of time after you kill them once because you have no chance to fail and usually nothing to optimize

1 hour ago, 00petar00 said:

I do agree that FW is a much better fight for someone with experience but really terrible for newer players that haven't attempted the fight much

you're supposed to either get better or get more stuff if you can't kill a boss so it's fine, they always can get weather pains or brightshade staff to kill it without learning anything 

[prettynuggets]

NGL, seeing how uncompromising mod done crab king i kinda like it .. a water boss that require boating equipment ??? and boat armor to beat??, moving around instead of pressing F and cancel all attack with ice staff??? bro Klei need to take notes on this one. 

if they add mod to change crab king fight like this i will sign up, it look like fun even with other people i can see we communicate to navigate and sneak an attack. 
not fan of whole mod tho, so if they made separated for crab king only i would gladly use it. 

[grm9]

1 hour ago, prettynuggets said:

moving around instead of pressing F and cancel all attack with ice staff???

you can also do that without mods

Edited April 28 by grm9

[prettynuggets]

15 minutes ago, grm9 said:

you can also do that without mods

it does, but it was too punishing to have boat leaked by so many geysers attack. one miss and u go sinking. thats why people cancel the animation better than risking to redo the fight all over again. if dealing damage by not moving the boat and canceling animation works why would people go far by dodging those geysers.
 
this bubble in video damage player not making the boat leaking with so many holes... and u can damage the boss by ramming ur boat to crabking and it deals quite alot of damage. 
that way the boat armor can really come in handy. and finally worth using i guess. 
instead of armor people might get the equipment from the monkey island/pirate to buff their effectiveness rowing boat too? having all out with the pirate outfit to fight crab king might come in as really fitting gimmick, maybe their sword deal more damage to the claws? 

instead same old fight where people just get buffed or use high damage char like wolfgang. i would love to have more sea related item for sea bosses instead.  

[Popian]

8 hours ago, grm9 said:

usually nothing to optimize

There's combinations of high speed, low risk, and low cost (includes resources gained in the interaction depending on how much you value them) to work out.

Nightmare Werepig is a good one, how does one quickly get it to 50%, break the pillars, then finish it off? Sounds too expensive for a short term world at first, but there are things to work with like Marble Shrubs and Bunnymen, maybe Treeguards.

[grm9]

8 hours ago, prettynuggets said:

it does, but it was too punishing to have boat leaked by so many geysers attack. one miss and u go sinking

you're supposed to place another boat if the boat that you're currently on breaks

8 hours ago, prettynuggets said:

if dealing damage by not moving the boat and canceling animation works why would people go far by dodging those geysers

to spend less resources on it and make the fight more fun instead of complaining about the fight requiring ice staves and being boring

5 hours ago, Popian said:

Nightmare Werepig is a good one, how does one quickly get it to 50%, break the pillars, then finish it off? Sounds too expensive for a short term world at first, but there are things to work with like Marble Shrubs and Bunnymen, maybe Treeguards

???
since when is fighting werepig normally an issue? it's literally just ham bat and magi or starcaller for light

8 hours ago, prettynuggets said:

that way the boat armor can really come in handy. and finally worth using i guess

it probably currently isn't because it didn't exist back when they added CK

[00petar00]

On 4/28/2024 at 7:11 PM, grm9 said:

nvm ig since there still are ways to kill FW, CK etc. with knowledge and without practice, practicing is often fun, that's half the reason souls-like games exist, except they only allow you to practice, unlike FW and CK, which you could kill either by using brightshade staff, lazy explorer, nightmare amulet etc. 1st try and bees or practicing to do them with a weapon and armor and sanity and insanity food in case of FW and boats in case of CK

I can't imagine how you compare souls games to DST where death is much more punishing, playing a souls like game you just die and respawn without any real loss. I guess to you it is the same since you like practicing and rolling back but a lot of players play on pubs where they don't have the luxury of rollback unless others agree to it and you won't be learning a boss fight after one.

On 4/28/2024 at 7:11 PM, grm9 said:

you're supposed to place a new boat if the durability of the boat that you're currently on is too low

It is easy for you to say and the fight isn't too difficult for me when I have thousands of hours played but that isn't easy to pull off, players need to pay attention to so many things in the fight and claws have too much HP also this fight is unique so experience from other boss fights doesn't translate to you being good at it except maybe FW for item swapping.

On 4/28/2024 at 7:11 PM, grm9 said:

i don't complain about bosses being too easy because they either aren't or weren't at some point, but killing new bosses on 1st or 2nd try isn't hard so they end up being a boring waste of time after you kill them once because you have no chance to fail and usually nothing to optimize

If there was no requirement for farming resources before fight and also need to have revival which while cheap is also needed like you bring up souls and how the game can be fun even when you fail killing a boss 100 times but in DST solo doing that without rollbacks will be literal hell as you'd be spending like 80% of the time gathering resources for the fight and like 20% on the fight itself that is the problem.

On 4/28/2024 at 7:11 PM, grm9 said:

you're supposed to either get better or get more stuff if you can't kill a boss so it's fine, they always can get weather pains or brightshade staff to kill it without learning anything 

That would be fine If death wasn't so punishing and you weren't losing all of that at one attempt of fighting the boss. How do you expect a new player that doesn't watch youtube, read the wiki or obtains any information out of the game about the boss and at the same time doesn't rollback, the said player goes and spends 30 minutes gathering resources just to be overprepared and dies 5 minutes during the fight wasting most of these resources.

[Popian]

18 hours ago, grm9 said:

since when is fighting werepig normally an issue? it's literally just ham bat and magi or starcaller for light

How does one quickly get it to 50%, break the pillars, then finish it off? It's a builder's challenge that you can get creative with if you don't enjoy approaching it the same way.

[SaltyPepper2231]

Have you ever heard of toadstool 

[grm9]

5 hours ago, Popian said:

How does one quickly get it to 50%, break the pillars, then finish it off? It's a builder's challenge that you can get creative with if you don't enjoy approaching it the same way

building something for killing it quickly would require more time than killing it normally, i normally want to kill AG, pig, dfly and BQ during 1st autumn and assemble pieces before new moon so can't really afford spending time on something fun but time consuming and inefficient

9 hours ago, 00petar00 said:

a lot of players play on pubs where they don't have the luxury of rollback unless others agree to it and you won't be learning a boss fight after one

they can make a practice world or ask other people on the server to help to not need to learn anything

9 hours ago, 00petar00 said:

FW for item swapping

which? it's just an oar, a weapon and optionally a torch

9 hours ago, 00petar00 said:

If there was no requirement for farming resources before fight and also need to have revival which while cheap is also needed like you bring up souls and how the game can be fun even when you fail killing a boss 100 times but in DST solo doing that without rollbacks will be literal hell as you'd be spending like 80% of the time gathering resources for the fight and like 20% on the fight itself that is the problem.

That would be fine If death wasn't so punishing and you weren't losing all of that at one attempt of fighting the boss. How do you expect a new player that doesn't watch youtube, read the wiki or obtains any information out of the game about the boss and at the same time doesn't rollback, the said player goes and spends 30 minutes gathering resources just to be overprepared and dies 5 minutes during the fight wasting most of these resources

imo rolling back and making test worlds for practicing stuff is fine, even if you don't like practicing you could just do that once for an easy strat to make sure that you won't die even though it looks easy, although you're realistically going to survive anyway because taking damage isn't an issue in case of FW unless a nightmare stays aggroed for too long since he has a 2 seconds long attack anim and you can teleport out of the cage by using lazy explorer, so you can only possibly run out of stuff