JLee Posted April 26 Share Posted April 26 Crab King continues to be the most unplayable boss in this game, and is the CHOKE POINT in the Celestial Champion route. PLEASE FIX this fight to involve the environment or SOMETHING that DOESNT REVOLVE AROUND BEE CHEESE METHODS. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grm9 Posted April 26 Share Posted April 26 you can row away from geysers btw, the only problem is killing claws if your dps is low, you can cancel the heal using a few bees or by starting to hold F at the right time even when solo to sync your attacks with the heal windows 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ridley Posted April 26 Share Posted April 26 Just practice the boss with rollbacks until you can't feel anything anymore, bro. /s 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benfroyobro9381 Posted April 26 Share Posted April 26 Before everyone calls this a skill issue for op, Crab King just isn't fun. Videogames are supposed to be fun. Crab King is similar to Bee Queen in the sense that cheese is the only way to beat the boss or with an obscene amount of resources. At least Bee Queen has great loot, replayability, and isn't such a drag to find and fight. Crab King has awful loot. I've legit neve seen anyone use the trident and for being such a difficult/resource intensive boss it's awful. The only purpose he serves is to fight another boss, which is something the shadow pieces suffer from but to a lesser extent. The two things Klei needs to fix or rework are: - Make the boss fun and make ways to beat it without cheesing or using a ton of resources. - Make other gem combinations besides purple viable. - Make the boss loot actually good and not just progression you need to fight another boss. 7 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theukon-dos Posted April 26 Share Posted April 26 (edited) I think the weirdest thing about CK is that it really doesn't make use of any actual sailing mechanics. Sure, there are some strategies that utilize being able to attack while the boat keeps moving inorder to deal with the arms. And obviously the geyser attack is instant death with how many leaks it puts in your boat. But for the most part fighting CK legitimately just means standing in one place and using a ton of ice staves to prevent the geyser attack. It doesn't help that we got some new tools that would be perfect in the CK fight a while later with the Curse of the Moon Quey update. And you know what? sure, I can accept cannonballs just bouncing off him. Not like it would be the easiest way to cheese him anyways. But come on. Using bumpers to defend against the imposing claws would be absolutely perfect. Just direct any damage they inflict to the bumper if they grab one, and then deal damage to the boat if they break. But nope! The Crab Claws just instantly break the bumpers and go right for the boat. It's obscene. I miiight have mentioned this before, but @O_Atoba_Azul did God's work and reworked the CK fight to fix all these issues, turning it from the single worst fight in the game; bar maybe Misery Toadstool; to something genuinly exhilerating and fun. Spoiler Edited April 26 by Theukon-dos 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grm9 Posted April 26 Share Posted April 26 27 minutes ago, Ridley said: Just practice the boss with rollbacks until you can't feel anything anymore, bro. /s is a boss requiring practice automatically bad? 8 minutes ago, benfroyobro9381 said: Before everyone calls this a skill issue for op, Crab King just isn't fun he's fun, assuming that you're rowing instead of freezing him and have enough dps to kill the claws, it's only an issue with how much hp they have if you don't have a damage multiplier 9 minutes ago, benfroyobro9381 said: Crab King is similar to Bee Queen in the sense that cheese is the only way to beat the boss or with an obscene amount of resources https://youtu.be/14J6W_SWggc you can get a few bees to not need to do the heal cancel yourself and fight along with them 10 minutes ago, benfroyobro9381 said: - Make the boss fun and make ways to beat it without cheesing or using a ton of resources done, but everyone think that weather pains and ice staves are the only way because they haven't tried rowing and getting minions for heal cancel 11 minutes ago, benfroyobro9381 said: - Make other gem combinations besides purple viable. - Make the boss loot actually good and not just progression you need to fight another boss those are the problems, although you can still use a few oranges without his stats changing and you can use blues instead of purples if you have too few purples and 2 yellows might've been viable if it wouldn't have been bugged 10 minutes ago, Theukon-dos said: But for the most part fighting CK legitimately just means standing in one place and using a ton of ice staves to prevent the geyser attack Reveal hidden contents why do people only try doing it using 1 strat and then complain about it not being fun? ice staves and bees aren't required 11 minutes ago, Theukon-dos said: I miiight have mentioned this before, but @O_Atoba_Azul did God's work and reworked the CK fight to fix all these issues, turning it from the single worst fight in the game; bar maybe Misery Toadstool; to something genuinly exhilerating and fun Reveal hidden contents it's not even remotely similar to CK, that's just another boss that isn't really related 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guille6785 Posted April 26 Share Posted April 26 49 minutes ago, benfroyobro9381 said: Before everyone calls this a skill issue for op, Crab King just isn't fun. this is completely subjective, imo crab king is overhated and pretty fun once you learn to counter its attacks 51 minutes ago, Theukon-dos said: I miiight have mentioned this before, but @O_Atoba_Azul did God's work and reworked the CK fight to fix all these issues, turning it from the single worst fight in the game; bar maybe Misery Toadstool; to something genuinly exhilerating and fun. Reveal hidden contents no offense to the mod creator but this fight seems atrocious, I know crab king has a lot of issues but this fight only fixes them by neutering the associated mechanics entirely 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benfroyobro9381 Posted April 26 Share Posted April 26 4 minutes ago, Guille6785 said: this is completely subjective, imo crab king is overhated and pretty fun once you learn to counter its attacks no offense to the mod creator but this fight seems atrocious, I know crab king has a lot of issues but this fight only fixes them by neutering the associated mechanics entirely tbf your claim is also subjective but i see what you mean bro. however, when the majority of the playerbase hates a fight I think klei should look into reworking it. i haven't seen a single content creator or fellow player enjoy crab king before you. almost every boss tier list or ranking has crab king dead last alongside the toadstool brothers and malbatross. my experiences alone cannot define the entire playerbase but its clear to me that more ppl hate it than not. similarly, not everyone but the vocal majority of the playerbase hated the old ancient guardian fight and chose to cheese it over interacting with its intended mechanics. klei reworked it and now i don't see anyone cheesing the fight because its so fun and simple. some rework like ancient guardian would be nice; uses the original mechanics of the boss but makes them more fun and less of a slog. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grm9 Posted April 26 Share Posted April 26 1 minute ago, benfroyobro9381 said: however, when the majority of the playerbase hates a fight I think klei should look into reworking it they should fix the community instead because people keep finding easy and unfun strats and complaining about them being unfun instead of trying to find better strats, i haven't seen anyone who tried fighting CK by rowing, killing claws, placing new boats and cancelling heal by starting to hold F at the right time/using bees and said that the fight is still extremely bad 2 minutes ago, benfroyobro9381 said: almost every boss tier list or ranking has crab king dead last alongside the toadstool brothers and malbatross probably same people that get a lot of weather pains/glass axes and weapons that aren't ham bat for toadstool, use weather pains/brightshade staff, lazy explorer and nightmare amulet for FW, a wall and a pan flute for dfly and pan flutes for BQ as all characters 4 minutes ago, benfroyobro9381 said: similarly, not everyone but the vocal majority of the playerbase hated the old ancient guardian fight and chose to cheese it over interacting with its intended mechanics. klei reworked it and now i don't see anyone cheesing the fight because its so fun and simple. some rework like ancient guardian would be nice; uses the original mechanics of the boss but makes them more fun and less of a slog new AG is extremely boring and the hardest part about the fight with low damage is not falling asleep, i'd cheese it if that would've been possible, would've at least got a few mins to do something fun after putting something onto F button Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benfroyobro9381 Posted April 26 Share Posted April 26 2 minutes ago, grm9 said: they should fix the community instead because people keep finding easy and unfun strats and complaining about them being unfun instead of trying to find better strats, i haven't seen anyone who tried fighting CK by rowing, killing claws, placing new boats and cancelling heal by starting to hold F at the right time/using bees and said that the fight is still extremely bad probably same people that get a lot of weather pains/glass axes and weapons that aren't ham bat for toadstool, use weather pains/brightshade staff, lazy explorer and nightmare amulet for FW, a wall and a pan flute for dfly and pan flutes for BQ as all characters new AG is extremely boring and the hardest part about the fight with low damage is not falling asleep, i'd cheese it if that would've been possible, would've at least got a few mins to do something fun after putting something onto F button while that method is valid, i've seen online criticism for them for being unfun or too resource intensive from ppl like freddo films. and unless Klei fundamentally believes the crab king fight is necessary the way it is, if a majority of the playerbase doesn't like it and has valid criticisms of the fight then they should at least address these claims rather than "fix the community", which is a bandaid fix and won't change anyones mind. what is a necessary change or what needs to be accepted by the playerbase is debatable but should at least be accessed by klei. all the methods you list for toadstool, fuelweaver, and beequeen are literally the textbook ways that ppl do these fights. how is that invalid? almost every content creator, casual player, etc, uses those methods. it might be you in the minority here which is not a bad thing but i wanna put this in perspective. i can see if you don't like the new ag fight, but i can't see it being preferrable to the previous one, where the only thing you could do was cheese or go through an incredibly slow fight that requires a lot of speed boosts. but to each their own. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grm9 Posted April 26 Share Posted April 26 (edited) 16 minutes ago, benfroyobro9381 said: freddo films isn't that the guy that said that a boy scout gaining sanity in forests is nonsensical and that walter is bad because that's apparently making him unplayable? why would you listen to him, assuming that it's just subjective stuff like "imo not fun", since i haven't seen anyone name any reasons except getting ice staves and weather pains and using them isn't fun even though it isn't required? 16 minutes ago, benfroyobro9381 said: if a majority of the playerbase doesn't like it and has valid criticisms of the fight then they should at least address these claims rather than "fix the community", which is a bandaid fix and won't change anyones mind i meant that people should start looking for better strats if the strats that they know are inefficient or not fun instead of complaining 16 minutes ago, benfroyobro9381 said: all the methods you list for toadstool, fuelweaver, and beequeen are literally the textbook ways that ppl do these fights. how is that invalid? almost every content creator, casual player, etc, uses those methods that's why i said that the community should get fixed instead of the game, people are using inefficient and unfun strats and complaining about them even though they don't need to, why not use oars and bees instead of ice staves and weather pains? why not use bramble husk/abigail/catapults/bramble traps/lure FW away from woven shadows, dodge bone cage and eat insanity food instead of using weather pains/brightshade staff, lazy explorer and nightmare amulet to not have issues with inventory management? why not use ice staves/a damage multiplier for lavaes instead of a wall? why not use abigail/moose/catapults/bramble husk/bunnymen/tentacles/merms/spiders/scare song/lunar fire/ignite all enemies nearby spell instead of pan flutes for BQ? 16 minutes ago, benfroyobro9381 said: i can see if you don't like the new ag fight, but i can't see it being preferrable to the previous one, where the only thing you could do was cheese or go through an incredibly slow fight that requires a lot of speed boosts. but to each their own both are bad, although old was better because it didn't require spending time on doing something extremely easy and boring, could've at least put something onto F button and went afk Edited April 26 by grm9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theukon-dos Posted April 26 Share Posted April 26 1 hour ago, grm9 said: it's not even remotely similar to CK, that's just another boss that isn't really related 50 minutes ago, Guille6785 said: no offense to the mod creator but this fight seems atrocious, I know crab king has a lot of issues but this fight only fixes them by neutering the associated mechanics entirely 1. Is starting from scratch a bad thing when the baseline is so atrocious? Sure, maybe the fights not AS bad as a lot of people make it out to be; you two seem to have it down pat after all; but it's still a pretty poorly designed fight at the end of the day. 2. Nah, the fights fun. I've done it a hand full of times myself. There are just a few things that don't really come across in that video, like ramming damage being based on speed, or destroying the imposing claws dealing damage to CK equal to their max HP. My only real problem with the fight ATM is the dependency on Canons and thus the Moon Quey. But if you can fight Fuelweaver without needing a weather pain or brightshade staff, then you can fight CK without cannons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grm9 Posted April 26 Share Posted April 26 1 minute ago, Theukon-dos said: it's still a pretty poorly designed fight at the end of the day. it isn't, claws' hp when playing without damage multipliers is the only issue, which is a number that could easily get changed 4 minutes ago, Theukon-dos said: Nah, the fights fun subjective Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ridley Posted April 26 Share Posted April 26 3 minutes ago, grm9 said: is a boss requiring practice automatically bad? My comment wasn't really about needing to gain experience to overcome a boss. It was a sarcastic remark implying firstly that criticisms of Crab King don't matter because you can cheat to get your resources back by rolling back, which enables you to retry over and over at no cost. Part of a boss's difficulty is how punishing the loss against them is. Rolling back until you can reliably kill the boss masks that difficulty and shouldn't be regarded as a part of the game anymore than mods are. The second part of my comment was implying that cheating the game this way will make a player feel jaded, which is meant as a warning. A player who does this may start to think thoughts like, "Why does Klei keep trying to make the game easy when I barely feel challenged?", "Why do people want a boss nerfed when I have to fight it while operating the mouse and keyboard with my feet just to keep it from being boring?", or "What does anything in this game matter if I can conjure an excuse to cheat gameplay I dislike?" Normally I refrain from using the C word to describe save scumming, as telling people they cheat implies they should stop and I don't really care if people save scum. I just don't want save scummers advocating for save scumming in defence of a boss. That should be the implicating evidence that a boss needs a rework and why I lampooned it! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grm9 Posted April 26 Share Posted April 26 5 minutes ago, Ridley said: My comment wasn't really about needing to gain experience to overcome a boss. It was a sarcastic remark implying firstly that criticisms of Crab King don't matter because you can cheat to get your resources back by rolling back, which enables you to retry over and over at no cost making test worlds or rolling back for practicing a boss is entirely fine and there are no issues with that, that's not cheating, no one should care about if you learned to fight FW by spending 10 amulets in a throwaway world or rolling back or setting up a test world, that's irrelevant and shaming on people for that or trying to make it seem like something bad is odd 6 minutes ago, Ridley said: That should be the implicating evidence that a boss needs a rework and why I lampooned it! so any boss that requires practice should get reworked? should all bosses just revive you and despawn after you die so rollbacks aren't needed, or should they all be extremely easy so you'll be able to do all of them 1st try and quit from boredom? 8 minutes ago, Ridley said: The second part of my comment was implying that cheating the game this way getting a lot of stuff for practicing a hard and fun fight is boring and killing a boss 1st try is boring, so good bosses don't exist if you're playing without practicing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_zwb Posted April 26 Share Posted April 26 33 minutes ago, grm9 said: subjective So does any other opinion, including yours. If subjectivity makes opinions worthless then why bother using the forums at all? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grm9 Posted April 26 Share Posted April 26 2 minutes ago, _zwb said: So does any other opinion, including yours. If subjectivity makes opinions worthless then why bother using the forums at all? the point was that saying "no, it's fun" as a response to "it's not fun" is pointless without a further explanation, the stuff mentioned in the message after that was unrelated to why they'd likely think that it's not fun since CK having slightly lower effective hp because of damage that got dealt to claws being also dealt to him is mostly irrelevant to how'd you fight it since it's only around 500 damage per claw and ramming damage being higher with higher speed is mostly irrelevant since you'd have high speed because of coming back from far away anyway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guille6785 Posted April 26 Share Posted April 26 1 hour ago, benfroyobro9381 said: tbf your claim is also subjective but i see what you mean bro. however, when the majority of the playerbase hates a fight I think klei should look into reworking it. i haven't seen a single content creator or fellow player enjoy crab king before you. almost every boss tier list or ranking has crab king dead last alongside the toadstool brothers and malbatross. my experiences alone cannot define the entire playerbase but its clear to me that more ppl hate it than not. this community has a massive problem with mob mentality so I don't think this is a valid metric, a lot of people also think fuelweaver is poorly designed while it's the best boss in the game in my opinion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ridley Posted April 26 Share Posted April 26 6 minutes ago, grm9 said: making test worlds or rolling back for practicing a boss is entirely fine and there are no issues with that, that's not cheating, no one should care about if you learned to fight FW by spending 10 amulets in a throwaway world or rolling back or setting up a test world, that's irrelevant and shaming on people for that or trying to make it seem like something bad is odd I wasn't shaming people for cheating, though I do understand what reaction the C word causes. Rolling back does matter because you are skipping the part where you lose and have to recover. It is a brutal learning curve when you are trying to sus out what the boss mechanics even are or how to best tackle them, a process made way easier when you rollback until you never lose. Defending a boss by advocating for save scumming is advocating for cheating. Just now, grm9 said: so any boss that requires practice should get reworked? should all bosses just revive you and despawn after you die so rollbacks aren't needed, or should they all be extremely easy so you'll be able to do all of them 1st try and quit from boredom? I didn't say bosses who require practice should get reworked. I said bosses who people defend by advocating cheating should. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grm9 Posted April 26 Share Posted April 26 (edited) 48 minutes ago, Ridley said: I wasn't shaming people for cheating, though I do understand what reaction the C word causes people usually shame on others for cheating anyway 48 minutes ago, Ridley said: Rolling back does matter because you are skipping the part where you lose and have to recover getting stuff for getting revived and weapons and armor and healing isn't fun nor hard, that's a waste of time, that's like saying that people should restart after dying to learn how to fight fuelweaver or otherwise they've cheated and are doing it wrong 48 minutes ago, Ridley said: It is a brutal learning curve when you are trying to sus out what the boss mechanics even are or how to best tackle them, a process made way easier when you rollback until you never lose getting stuff for fighting the boss is never the hard part or it doesn't get consumed until the boss dies e.g. shadow atrium and moon altars 48 minutes ago, Ridley said: Defending a boss by advocating for save scumming is advocating for cheating it isn't, that's just telling people how to practice without unnecessarily wasting time, that's like saying that getting knowledge from a book is cheating because you were supposed to track down it's author and force them to tell you everything that they know 48 minutes ago, Ridley said: I didn't say bosses who require practice should get reworked. I said bosses who people defend by advocating cheating should how does cheating matter when playing solo and what's cheating, considering that that's available even on consoles unlike console and mods? why is practicing through a test world or rolling back bad? who do you hurt by doing that? what does it make easier other than not falling asleep when practicing because of not needing to waste time on doing easy stuff to get stuff that you need for learning? Edited April 26 by grm9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capybara007 Posted April 26 Share Posted April 26 Yeah crab king sucks They should make it so the pearl gives an special drop like the blueprint, so if you kill him normally you will get the tribute Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cackenberg Posted April 26 Share Posted April 26 6 hours ago, grm9 said: everyone think that weather pains and ice staves are the only way because they haven't tried rowing and getting minions for heal cancel Seconding this. I genunely had a lot of fun fighting the crab king this way. I don't understand the sheer number of people that insist on doing it the boring way with ice staves. Alright, i'm not skilled at this game, but im not bad either. I admit, i only pulled off this tactic for the fight under specific circumstances: using maxwell (to use his duelists to help me cancel the heal); after killing fuelweaver (to use void cowl + shadow reaper dps to kill claws quickly enough to move from geysers). Obviously not the only circumstances for someone to achieve this kind of win against the crab king, but i dont want it to be too hard for myself, and it allowed me to do it without animation cancelling or a sychnronisation of my attacks with the healing window. Someone might see my fight as pointless, since the task to get shadow rift gear is steeper than the task to get ice staves and a weather pain. But you have to believe me- it was really fun. I had already done fuelweaver/cave rifts since maxwell's duelists need it anyway. If i were klei, i would probably only lower the health of the claws. Low enough so that there is less of a dps requirement to solo the fight with the rowing tactic. the healing window could probably stay as it is, since in my own opinion, the weather pain is fine where it is in this fight (to allow a healing cancel for the people with no minions who are also unwilling to work with bee mines or the precise timing). Shrug Actually, socketing gems should also have a milder effect. As they are, many combinations of gems are pointlessly punishing, and it discourages people from using anything other than purple on a boss that is supposed to be customisable. Sorry, I think everyone already knows this. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theukon-dos Posted April 27 Share Posted April 27 11 hours ago, grm9 said: subjective Yes, one's preference for boss fight is subjective, no doubt about it. But the thing in this situation is that they only think it looks like a bad fight. As far as I know, they've not actually fought it. And just the same, neither have you. I, however, have fought the boss before, and find it to be quite enjoyable. So if y'all want to give it a test run or two too feel for it yourselves (And feel free to ask for tips), then we'll be be on more even footing. But for now, I can confidently say that the fight feels better than it looks. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_zwb Posted April 27 Share Posted April 27 (edited) 12 hours ago, grm9 said: the point was that saying "no, it's fun" as a response to "it's not fun" is pointless without a further explanation True, but isn't it the same to just say "subjective" without a further explanation? Also that's what Guille was doing. "Your opinion is subjective, anyways here my totally non subjective opinion on the matter". Such hypocrisy. Edited April 27 by _zwb 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grm9 Posted April 27 Share Posted April 27 2 hours ago, Theukon-dos said: And just the same, neither have you i did a while ago, it was rather simple from what i remember and it was easiest to just kill him normally without cannons because there were much less claws so you could just row and kill him using ham bat 1st try even with x1 damage multiplier, since pearl wasn't required for the altar piece so timing heal cancel wasn't required either 27 minutes ago, _zwb said: True, but isn't it the same to just say "subjective" without a further explanation? there isn't much more to say other than even more obvious "elaborate" and idk if there's a point in discussing the rework since there's no need to turn CK into something else entirely, only a few numbers changes would be fine 28 minutes ago, _zwb said: Also that's what Guille was doing. "Your opinion is subjective, anyways here my totally non subjective opinion on the matter". Such hypocrisy 14 hours ago, Guille6785 said: this fight only fixes them by neutering the associated mechanics entirely Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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