has the dst community become entitled with content?

[MrsBoris]

thanks to jakepeng reacting to my message i went back to the "what are you expecting this year for dst" forum where i saw a discussion between bosses that follow the same dodge 3 times hit formula and bosses that "think out of the box". and once a guy made a comment saying that bee queen is supposed to be unbeatable solo, i thought yeah, that is by design.... is that a problem?

now that i think about it, what is the problem with dst having these crazy insurmountable bosses? it is an uncompromising survival game, intransigente! its supposed to be rigid and not make concessions, what if they want to make the final boss a cheating fight? what if bee queen is unkitable and spawn a fuckload of minions, WHAT IF toadstool has 60 thousand health and absolute meme drops? isn't that supposed to be the magic? what if the sea is disgustingly clunky? are THESE porpusefully made design decisions that COMPLEMENT dst's uncompromising survival game magic and we just can't accept them?

maybe just dont starve is an uncompromising experience, maybe that is not what dst is. is dst supposed to be uncompromising like ds? are we entitled or are we doing the right thing?

[BalkanCockroach]

41 minutes ago, MrsBoris said:

 

now that i think about it, what is the problem with dst having these crazy insurmountable bosses? it is an uncompromising survival game, intransigente! its supposed to be rigid and not make concessions, what if they want to make the final boss a cheating fight? what if bee queen is unkitable and spawn a fuckload of minions, WHAT IF toadstool has 60 thousand health and absolute meme drops? isn't that supposed to be the magic? what if the sea is disgustingly clunky? are THESE porpusefully made design decisions that COMPLEMENT dst's uncompromising survival game magic and we just can't accept them?

I can't accept the fact that the fights are intended to be for multiplayer but when 2-4 players engage with effort the fights becomes a joke. And for solo they become a chore to prepare for rather than a fight that you enjoy. DST way of making a "hard boss" is BS mechanic intended for multiple people or grinding and preparation  that takes way too much time.

If the game is supposed to be ultra mega hard, then why the separation of normal and raid bosses? 

[Mike23Ua]

Think of it this way- Klei keeps releasing content for DST because they want to keep players playing DST.

And to be honest.. Klei probably gets burned out on releasing these completely free content updates nearly 10 years into the games lifespan.

Yet… they do highly questionable stuff, such as Rework characters & give them Skill Trees- almost as if they have no intentions of EVER releasing a new Dont Starve game and instead, opt to keep updating DST for FREE.

However, because those updates are free for a game that’s near 10 years old- Klei also probably feels like it doesn’t need to be premium quality content, (which would explain why the games ocean still feels like something in early beta access despite being something that’s been part of the game since 2019)

Now of course I have to consider that Klei is a small mostly indie Studio, made up of only a few developers… BUT

I also consider that IF DST was NOT getting free almost monthly updates, and Klei was to instead release a brand new DS game in the year 2024- That players would naturally expect that game to get updates, DLCs and developer support for at least a few years.

I get it.. working on DST for nearly 10 years would burn ANYONE Out, but it’s that very same lack of motivation of the game feeling like something “New” that has been the reason we’ve had so many half-baked ideas & underwhelming updates for it.

Which would not be the same case, if Klei created a DS 2… and instead of being a tiring Job they’re maybe feeling slightly overwhelmed or unmotivated with after 10 years… It would be NEW & Exciting to them, It would feel less like WORK, and more like a Passion Project.

You know… what the original game started out as before we ended up with Whatever DST continues to become with each update?

The TL:DR- If Klei was to release a DS 2 it wouldn’t be full of half-baked & underwhelming updates like we have been getting with DSTs updates. 

As much as I hate the existence of DS:NewHome- look at all the crazy content and passion that’s being driven towards it!! So many cute, cool, creepy mobs and biomes and new gameplay ideas..

Thats sadly more than I can say for DST… which I can only guess that Klei has felt burned out on from time to time.

I’ll end this post by saying that just because it’s free updates- doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be premium quality content.. NO ONE asked for all of DSTs updates to be free- and I’d had gladly paid 10-20$ for some actual premium quality expansion packs for it.

[Evelo]

Bosses don't make the game uncompromising. They are optional things that you can avoid. What makes it uncompromising are the things you cannot avoid like the seasons, hounds, deerclops, antlion, hunger, and sanity. If you want bosses to be uncompromising have them actively hunt the player or follow them around to cause a ruckus. I want to feel fear and all the bosses don't do that. Klei seems to somewhat alleviate this with the Brightshade introduction (which a lot of people hate but I love it honestly). I personally want more things that really make the player never feel safe. Besides the Brightshade, Antlion was the last thing that was introduced that felt like an actual danger to you for just existing.

[Hi.]

You do know that bosses can be hard and uncompromising without having minion spam, 60k+ hp and cheap tricks, right? Bosses should test the player’s ability to kite and learn attack patterns, not make them resort to cheesing them. Also I think the ocean was meant to feel challenging and dangerous to navigate, not clunky. 

[Pamela Bianchi]

6 minutes ago, Evelo said:

Bosses don't make the game uncompromising. They are optional things that you can avoid. What makes it uncompromising are the things you cannot avoid like the seasons, hounds, deerclops, antlion, hunger, and sanity. If you want bosses to be uncompromising have them actively hunt the player or follow them around to cause a ruckus. I want to feel fear and all the bosses don't do that. Klei seems to somewhat alleviate this with the Brightshade introduction (which a lot of people hate but I love it honestly). I personally want more things that really make the player never feel safe. Besides the Brightshade, Antlion was the last thing that was introduced that felt like an actual danger to you for just existing.

I was playing without sound and bearger just appeared instantly on my screen when I rotated it. I never jumped so high out of my chair since :<

[Valase]

Every time someone says uncompromising, my bones rotate 1º to the left.

2 hours ago, MrsBoris said:

maybe just dont starve is an uncompromising experience, maybe that is not what dst is. is dst supposed to be uncompromising like ds? are we entitled or are we doing the right thing?

Dst made me realize that DS/RoG easier than what I remembered and the why that Ham/Sw have such "absurd" things to compensate.

But answering your question, they did not become entitled, they've become deranged.

[MrsBoris]

14 minutes ago, Evelo said:

Bosses don't make the game uncompromising. They are optional things that you can avoid. What makes it uncompromising are the things you cannot avoid like the seasons, hounds, deerclops, antlion, hunger, and sanity. If you want bosses to be uncompromising have them actively hunt the player or follow them around to cause a ruckus. I want to feel fear and all the bosses don't do that. Klei seems to somewhat alleviate this with the Brightshade introduction (which a lot of people hate but I love it honestly). I personally want more things that really make the player never feel safe. Besides the Brightshade, Antlion was the last thing that was introduced that felt like an actual danger to you for just existing.

you are right, thanks a lot for this. its the world that is rigid and austere, that is what makes dst an uncompromising survival game.... extremely good insight.

 

16 minutes ago, Hi. said:

You do know that bosses can be hard and uncompromising without having minion spam, 60k+ hp and cheap tricks, right? Bosses should test the player’s ability to kite and learn attack patterns

thats why i have fun attacking dragonfly, i like bosses that if you have enough skill you can get out basically unharmed. anyways yeah bosses dont need cheap tricks to be uncompromising, i didn't think of that, i think defining an uncompromising boss is much harder than defining an uncompromising world, like yeah i can tell you that minecrafts world isn't of a rigid survival nature, much less terraria, BUT what is an uncompromising boss fight?

7 minutes ago, Valase said:

Every time someone says uncompromising, my bones rotate 1º to the left.

why? do you think the terms usage carries no true meaning?

[_zwb]

46 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Klei is a small mostly indie Studio,

It's not, Tencent acquired Klei, Klei definitely has the resources required for big projects.

7 minutes ago, MrsBoris said:

do you think the terms usage carries no true meaning?

Honestly at this point "uncompromising" has become meta-irony/post-irony

[grm9]

29 minutes ago, Hi. said:

Bosses should test the player’s ability to kite and learn attack patterns, not make them resort to cheesing them

so which boss are you complaining about? shadow prison, moon shrooms, bramble husks etc. for BQ, ice staff for dfly, torch and dropping ham bat for toadstool, literally all methods other than voidwalking and lureplants for FW, the method most people use for shadow pieces etc. all aren't cheese imo, even getting a ton of minions isn't cheese, after all you need to figure out to do that since you can't juse use minions against all bosses

34 minutes ago, Evelo said:

If you want bosses to be uncompromising have them actively hunt the player or follow them around to cause a ruckus

that wouldn't change anything because the best option would be to kill them for the loot anyway, regardless of if they came to you or you'll have to come to them, it also wouldn't make sense for FW to rise out of the ground and start fighting you or for CC to land nearby for an unknown reason 

[Hi.]

10 minutes ago, grm9 said:

so which boss are you complaining about? shadow prison, moon shrooms, bramble husks etc. for BQ, ice staff for dfly, torch and dropping ham bat for toadstool, literally all methods other than voidwalking and lureplants for FW, the method most people use for shadow pieces etc. all aren't cheese imo, e

Yes most of these methods are cheeses IMO and most of these methods are character specific. Also we shouldn't even have to use methods like these in the first place, I just want a fair raid boss (maybe endgame) that puts the player's skill to test and doesn't use annoying mechanics. (btw dfly is fine im mostly talking about bosses like bq and toadstool)

[MrsBoris]

34 minutes ago, _zwb said:

Honestly at this point "uncompromising" has become meta-irony/post-irony

meta irony??? post irony??? what do you mean post irony, what comes after irony? uncompromising could have become an ironic thing but what does post irony mean

[grm9]

23 minutes ago, Hi. said:

Yes most of these methods are cheeses IMO

what do you consider cheese? if cheese is something that allows you to win very easily and effortlessly even though the fight is supposed to be hard, then all of those aren't cheese

25 minutes ago, Hi. said:

most of these methods are character specific

only the BQ ones and most characters have their own method for BQ at this point

25 minutes ago, Hi. said:

 Also we shouldn't even have to use methods like these in the first place

then the fights would be boring because you wouldn't need to figure anything out about how to kill the boss and which method is best to use and would instead just walk to the side thrice and hold F or keep running away and occasionally shooting and then circle around once and hold F or walk in any direction for a few seconds twice and hold F

27 minutes ago, Hi. said:

I just want a fair raid boss

why are these bosses unfair?

28 minutes ago, Hi. said:

(bq and toadstool)

both are fine since you can do toadstool using a ham bat and a torch so there's nothing unfair or character specific and there's a ton of methods for BQ

[Auth]

There's difficulty and artificial difficulty. If something is harder because of bad game design or oversights, is it actually harder, or just more unfair?

Asking for the game to add more "uncompromising content" shouldn't, and at least for people like me, doesn't translate to "Just make it harder" or "Stop making things easier", it means to keep adding content that's in-line with how older content was added. Content designed to challenge the player organically by making the world feel more alive, or more specifically in this case, not bosses that sit and wait patiently for the player to show up and beat them to death.

Regardless of the challenge a boss like Bee Queen possesses in her actual fight itself, in my opinion, she is less well designed for the original vision of the world compared to something as simple and "easy" as the spider queen. And is less "uncompromising". Man, what a fun word! I can see why so many people throw it around so much...

What do I mean by that? How could I possibly mean that the spider queen, a filler miniboss mob that people can sneeze on and kill it or just ignore entirely, is more uncompromising than the bee queen, a gargantuan 27k HP tank with various phases and gimmicks, demanding tons of resources, skill, or a variety of different tactics?

Spider dens are intended to be hazards for the world. They are enemy spawners first and foremost, farming potential aside. The average beginner will learn what they are rather quickly and will take quite a bit of time to warm up to the idea of taking them on after their first experiences or death with them. But then comes the queen- leaving a den alone too long causes a queen to emerge, and either start fighting the player, or stomp around for a bit before creating another spider den in the world. Whether you're just walking through and happen to see one, or you're farming spiders when one decides to show up, you are suddenly being threatened by the world. Leaving her alone is, in most situations, a bad thing- Either that chunk of your world is all the more deadly if you're new, or, you have to end your resource farming, and maybe you really needed that silk. She exists to periodically show up and challenge the player to prove their worth. She takes something that's normally quite mundane, and makes it potentially very terrifying, especially if multiple show up at once! You're all of a sudden thrown onto your feet and have to make active decisions in the moment of how to take on the challenge, or how to flee.

Compare that to Bee Queen. Bee Queen does nothing 100% of the time unless the player directly intervenes and purposefully spawns her. She has no effect on the world whatsoever. She is a trophy. Her fight is way harder, but at the end of the day, you can survive just as well having never seen her. She does not pose a threat to your survival, your world, or anything, unless you make her do that. Instead of thinking on your feet, you're preparing for days at a time, and the "threat" becomes a check for if you are prepared/geared enough based on your skill level.

Let's take a completely different look at the concept of a bee queen, through the lens that this definition of "uncompromising" provides. Not something that should be considered for the current bee queen or anything, but more of just what she could've looked like in an alternate universe.

Imagine the bee biome, full of beehives and killer beehives.Every once in a while, a killer beehive could pop up by other beehives, and look very similar to the current gigantic beehive. Perhaps make it look as though it's infected- This infectious bee queen would periodically wake up & affect nearby beehives, turning them sickly and making them only spawn killer bees or even a toned-down version of grumble bees, and probably removes honeycomb from the drops if you were to destroy it in this state. Now we're getting somewhere- this is something that affects the world, but just like spiders, can be ignored, for a cost, if you're not feeling up to it. Eventually she'll calm down and just become a regular killer beehive if nothing's done. This version of bee queen would be a much smaller fight, but killing her would result in all infected beehives being purified, or better yet, a way to do it manually, so in the future, you won't have to fight one every time to disinfect a beehive. To top it off, perhaps killing her causes her to explode out a few small honeycomb things, that plant themselves in the ground, that grow into natural beehives over time, or can be hammered for some wax. So now, killing this alternate BQ is more than just "dealing with a threat" like the lord of the fruit flies feels sometimes, it's a palpable reward for your skill, that feeds back into the world! And hopefully acts distinct enough to make her feel like more than just a copy-paste of a spider queen onto another mob type.

-------

Wanting something out of a game that's being actively worked on does not make you entitled. It makes you a fan, it makes you passionate, it means that the game has inspired you to want something more. And to write that down, it's feedback. It's suggestions. It's a 5-ish paragraph post about spiders and bees. The only time someone's ideas for the game should be shut down is if it is unconstructive or is being used as a platform to invalidate others. Otherwise, people should be allowed to have their own opinions and desires to see what directions the game can take.

[grm9]

44 minutes ago, Auth said:

Instead of thinking on your feet, you're preparing for days at a time, and the "threat" becomes a check for if you are prepared/geared enough based on your skill level

you can force yourself to either kill BQ before day X or restart if you don't like being able to prepare as much as you want, if BQ would corrupt beehives then everyone would just be forced into doing that and if she wouldn't have current drops even more people would ignore her existence because it's easy to survive without bees 

[Hi.]

1 hour ago, grm9 said:

both are fine since you can do toadstool using a ham bat and a torch so there's nothing unfair or character specific and there's a ton of methods for BQ

Have you even fought toadstool? his mush trees are very annoying and the torch takes way to long (by the time the trees burn toadstool will just spawn more trees)

Also I thought you said you used void walking so that's why I said that some of those strats were cheeses, but I did re-read and noticed that you said "except" so I apologize (but I still consider minions a cheese due to the fact pretty much no skill is involved and it involves holding f)

1 hour ago, grm9 said:

then the fights would be boring because you wouldn't need to figure anything out about how to kill the boss and which method is best to use and would instead just walk to the side thrice and hold F or keep running away and occasionally shooting and then circle around once and hold F or walk in any direction for a few seconds twice and hold F

What I meant was that you could kite and not have to do weird strats. kiting doesn't mean holding f and then walking away for example, when you fight Nightmare Werepig you have to dodge in a certain direction to avoid his attack(also you have to kite slam attack). Another example is Frostjaw, you can kite everyone of his attacks and all you need to fight him is a weapon and a fishing rod to summon him, his fight is one of the best IMO.

 

1 hour ago, grm9 said:

why are these bosses unfair?

Btw im not just talking about BQ and FW im also talking about bosses like CK. BQ uses enemy spam, FW isn't as bad as bq and I do think people over estimate his difficulty but he is annoying, toadstool had 50k+ hp and spawns a stupid amount of mush trees, and CK is a horrible ocean boss due to the fact he heals, has a stupid amount of hp, and spawns claws to kill your boat.

 

1 hour ago, grm9 said:

only the BQ ones and most characters have their own method for BQ at this point

Not most: Wolfgang (tho he has 2x damage), Wilson, Wortox, Walter(he does have his own method but it's slower and worse than pan flutes), Wanda, Warly(Warly also could get 3x damage with enough supplies), Woodie, and etc.

[cropo]

4 minutes ago, Hi. said:

Have you even fought toadstool? his mush trees are very annoying

Because the intent was to make it impossible for players to solo him, they weren't anticipating players would literally go farm volt goats for 20 hours, the most annoying mob with the most annoying drop rate for one of the most luxury resources, to make 20 weather pains to solo him. Thankfully glass cutter axes were later introduced so you can spam pan flutes every time he sleeps to just remove this mechanic from the fight.

[Well-met]

yes they have, however it's just a repeat of every other game following this update model. see- tf2.

[Uedo]

3 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

Think of it this way- Klei keeps releasing content for DST because they want to keep players playing DST.

And to be honest.. Klei probably gets burned out on releasing these completely free content updates nearly 10 years into the games lifespan.

Yet… they do highly questionable stuff, such as Rework characters & give them Skill Trees- almost as if they have no intentions of EVER releasing a new Dont Starve game and instead, opt to keep updating DST for FREE.

However, because those updates are free for a game that’s near 10 years old- Klei also probably feels like it doesn’t need to be premium quality content, (which would explain why the games ocean still feels like something in early beta access despite being something that’s been part of the game since 2019)

Now of course I have to consider that Klei is a small mostly indie Studio, made up of only a few developers… BUT

I also consider that IF DST was NOT getting free almost monthly updates, and Klei was to instead release a brand new DS game in the year 2024- That players would naturally expect that game to get updates, DLCs and developer support for at least a few years.

I get it.. working on DST for nearly 10 years would burn ANYONE Out, but it’s that very same lack of motivation of the game feeling like something “New” that has been the reason we’ve had so many half-baked ideas & underwhelming updates for it.

Which would not be the same case, if Klei created a DS 2… and instead of being a tiring Job they’re maybe feeling slightly overwhelmed or unmotivated with after 10 years… It would be NEW & Exciting to them, It would feel less like WORK, and more like a Passion Project.

You know… what the original game started out as before we ended up with Whatever DST continues to become with each update?

The TL:DR- If Klei was to release a DS 2 it wouldn’t be full of half-baked & underwhelming updates like we have been getting with DSTs updates. 

As much as I hate the existence of DS:NewHome- look at all the crazy content and passion that’s being driven towards it!! So many cute, cool, creepy mobs and biomes and new gameplay ideas..

Thats sadly more than I can say for DST… which I can only guess that Klei has felt burned out on from time to time.

I’ll end this post by saying that just because it’s free updates- doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be premium quality content.. NO ONE asked for all of DSTs updates to be free- and I’d had gladly paid 10-20$ for some actual premium quality expansion packs for it.

To OP: No not all.... the players do not feel entitled...

[CuteC]

There's a big difference between difficult and unfair, if you intend to make a hard boss it has to be fair yet hard to beat, bee queen is everything but that, either the fight is the worst thing imaginable or a complete joke, no in between, take 6 mins to kill her or bring a thousand merms.

Klaus can be difficult but he is totally doable and has clear indications of what attacks are being used alongside patterns the player can recognize, his fight is really fun to do despite the fact you don't get anything out of it after a certain point, I think that's the indication you made a good boss.

6 hours ago, MrsBoris said:

maybe just dont starve is an uncompromising experience, maybe that is not what dst is. is dst supposed to be uncompromising like ds? are we entitled or are we doing the right thing?

Don't Starve is infinitely easier than Don't Starve Together.

[somethin]

It's funny when people consider using minions as cheating. We come to a point that using in game mechanics against boss is consider cheating and the thing that aren't 'cheese' is literally walk back and fourth and bashing boss with a variety of melee options.

[Popian]

30 minutes ago, somethin said:

It's funny when people consider using minions as cheating. We come to a point that using in game mechanics against boss is consider cheating

It's not cheating, but the problem is that with enough minions there's no risk involved (and repeat resource farming incentivizes going all out) so the commendable thing about using them is whether the setup is designed to be efficient and easy to use.

This also puts an onus for all new bosses to have anti-minion abilities (which can still be countered if minions can get hits in as with epic scare) unless the "intended approach" is to use some minions, which may be already be reserved for Dragonfly, T3 Shadow Knight, and on-release Toadstool.

[Frosty_Mentos]

Maxwell, Wolfgang, Wendy, Wanda are the proof that game can be soloed, any damage modifiers adding to that. 

There's also bunnymen and pigmen you can use in fights but people hate effort in upkeeping them and building houses in specific places and would cry that it's "not soloing" despite not having other additional players.

The games are sandbox through and through, if the thing is too dangerous you can always bring plenty of gunpowder or a big armored army and delete everything in your path. With surface bosses tho you can use other bosses to kill bosses. Nature is wild and they'll battle each other out if they are able to, giving opportunities for players to get creative in their path of killing things.

I think the only entitlement is the singleminded idea some some community things that "hit and run boring - PLS FIX" expecting a change from klei won't ever happen, the most we'd get is more magic and abilities to have progression and be able to challenge those creatures in more ways.

I think some people get really bored fast from DST, despite the high amounts of content it adds, killing all bosses then going away to complain in forums and it usually how it goes after they figure it all out. People love the game despite any of this outside the circle here, and I don't see that many complaining outside the forum.

[Notecja]

2 hours ago, CuteC said:

Don't Starve is infinitely easier than Don't Starve Together.

In a way yes. Like armor stacking so you dont take damage and cannot be stunlocked. The only harder thing is when you make in DS beautiful big base with hamlet house and lights, have best weapon from shipwrecked, a palm tree valley and other stuff looted from all DLC but after a little mistake end up with whole world wiped. That world-wipe was actual hardest thing and likely is a real reason why people think that DS was harder.

[Mike23Ua]

4 hours ago, grm9 said:

you can force yourself to either kill BQ before day X or restart if you don't like being able to prepare as much as you want, if BQ would corrupt beehives then everyone would just be forced into doing that and if she wouldn't have current drops even more people would ignore her existence because it's easy to survive without bees 

It’s easy to survive without the existence of Bee Queen too..

You need bundling wraps? Just play the game ONCE during WintersFeast (the Currently active Holiday event) and learn to craft the much Easier to craft alternate version called Gift Wrap, as long as you’ve learned the crafting Recipe for it- You never EVER need to kill BQ for bundling crafts..

So then what does BQ reward you with? A crown? An Elitest Status base decoration?

Im so sick of the way DST is structured…

Perhaps something actually interesting could be done with BQ where she slowly infects every biome with killer bee hives until you go and deal with their Queen.

That would be uncompromising, that would be unique.. that would make me actually feel like I NEED to go eliminate a threat.

Bosses in DST aren’t like that though- most of them require a Specfic tool to summon- which means you can build an elaborate cheese strategy trap all around them before you initiate the actual fighting phase.

Bee Queen Doesn’t stand a chance against 100 closely placed near her hive Bunny Man hutches and all bunnies armored up in battle helms.

You can DO THAT because the game doesn’t force you to think on your toes like it will if your just trotting along in the caves and all of a sudden a Shadow Rift throws inkblights out at you, but to top that off there’s also an Incoming DepthWorm Wave, AND Acid Rain- So now your forced to make a choice

Flee with Acid protective gear, Fight and Endure the Acid, as well as Armor duration damage due to needing to fight while dealing with the Acid.

Oh yeah and to top that off two nearby spider dens just turned into Spider Queens and your losing Sanity at an alarming rate.

Most Bosses are Optional and are summoned with a specific tool after you’ve gathered all the armor, healing items, or built the elaborate traps you want to set up around them.