Wigfrid's shield is op

[NoodlemanNed]

13 minutes ago, goatt said:

The cost is trivia compared to other methods

hambat and marble suit tanking is also pretty trivial but i havnt seen many complaints about that armor

[HowlVoid]

I wouldn't mind a small increase in price.

Not not sure by how much, since the point of the shield (and it's attached skill investment) is to trade food and armor (resources) for a more tactical approach (timing). 

Make it too resource dependent and you lose the purpose of the item. 

Maybe the shield could require a small amount of inspiration to block. Like how a warrior could lose their nerve in battle. I always thought that if wig was going to get a shield it should be tied with inspiration somehow, something the player has to manage to balance out the addition of battle songs into the mix. 

If that proves too annoying, then maybe it can cost some extra 2 gold and some pigskin (the equivalent of some armor it would take to kite anyways). But not so much given the few bosses this actually works on.

[goatt]

6 minutes ago, NoodlemanNed said:

hambat and marble suit tanking is also pretty trivial but i havnt seen many complaints about that armor

You miss the point. If you didn’t miss the point, the correct the metaphor would be marble suits tanking without costing durability. 
Invulnerability exists, for example, bone armor. But invulnerability or damage reduction without costs never existed before. 
 

The cost of marble suit tanking is marbles. Marbles aren’t trivia. They take a very long time to replicate. The cost of Rönd is zero, zero. I call that trivia.

[HowlVoid]

23 minutes ago, goatt said:

That “not working” version would be about as op as Wurt’s merm army.

You're kinda comparing oranges to apples here. Merms have far more utility than the shield that makes sense to having a one time cost. 

They mine, do DMG, can cut wood, serve has respawning tanks, etc. 

It doesn't really make any sense to compare them. What's more, Merms help create more Merms.

4 minutes ago, goatt said:

You miss the point. If you didn’t miss the point, the correct the metaphor would be marble suits tanking without costing durability. 
Invulnerability exists, for example, bone armor. But invulnerability or damage reduction without costs never existed before. 
 

The cost of marble suit tanking is marbles. Marbles aren’t trivia. They take a very long time to replicate. The cost of Rönd is zero, zero. I call that trivia.

Kiting also costs 0

[goatt]

Just now, HowlVoid said:

You're kinda comparing oranges to apples here. Merms have far more utility than the shield that makes sense to having a one time cost. 

They mine, do DMG, can cut wood, serve has respawning tanks, etc. 

It doesn't really make any sense to compare them. What's more, Merms help create more Merms.

Not sure why. Everyone under this thread seems to arguing about utility and functions when my arguments are about costs.

tanking using Rönd costs 0. That’s why it’s op.

[NoodlemanNed]

17 minutes ago, goatt said:

tanking using Rönd costs 0. That’s why it’s op.

attacking with rond costs durability, messing up your timing costs a lot of durability. you can say that blocking is easy so you never encounter that huge durability cost, but kiting dragonfly is also very easy which means dragonfly doesnt even cost any armour.

this thread is also way too fixated on dragonfly. it isnt the only enemy in the game, the shield is pretty well balanced for most fights and being exceptionally strong against a couple slow attacking enemies doesnt make something overpowered in general.

[HowlVoid]

27 minutes ago, goatt said:

Not sure why. Everyone under this thread seems to arguing about utility and functions when my arguments are about costs.

tanking using Rönd costs 0. That’s why it’s op.

They have different applications. 

If we muddy the waters I can claim that Merms replace far more tools in comparison over a longer period of time. And while wig is still killing dragonfly within 8min, wurt is killing dragonfly in seconds. What's more merms provide the necessary force or resources to create more houses to where the cost for future houses is almost 0, but yet the services provided by a single Merms are far more than a single shield can do.

You're not looking at the bigger picture.

The comparisons should be kept to what other resources wig would be using if she wasn't blocking which are kiting or tanking. Blocking is closer kiting because it also costs 0 but removes the risk of being hit. 

Unlike traditional tanking and the bone armor (something I haven't seen discussed) these two do provide higher DPS since you can still attacks and may have a better weapon. More DMG = requires durability.

If we compare kiting and blocking and address the loss of the risk we can get closer to reaching a more appropriate nerf or lack thereof. 

This is also Wigfrid we're talking about, there's not much risk in being hit. Not to mention tanking is her specialty, so how much of a gap between the rönd and kiting are we really talking about here? Especially if we consider the skill investment on a character that specializes in combat?

[shaurun]

4 hours ago, Jakepeng99 said:

It never needed the parry or any other buffs. It was only the skills that were weak, not the shield. I suggest removing the parry because unlike Willow little skill is needed. The shield could lose some durability when blocking.

 

It being a speedrunner is irrelavant, this is not near hard to learn.

 

 

 

2 gold and 4 beefalo wool probably should not be better than bone armour.

Hey, Wigfrid is already able to regain HP when fighting, right? With kiting + healing she is already almost "immune to damage". So it mean shield is not OP, and also not necessary to every player. Also  I'm pretty sure using a shield properly requires some training. So let it be.

[Well-met]

it's odd that it doesn't lose durability on block.

it's also odd that its damage isn't axe damage.

[chirsg]

Are we looking at the same video here?

Am I stupid? 

Do I fail to see the value in the shield?

 

Let me list some things here.

- Dragonfly fight with walls.

- Pan Flute

- 16 GOLD!!!!!

I need to reiterate the last part 

16 GOLD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

That's 8 battle helms! To make one hambat, you need 5 nuggets. 1 science machine and 1 alchemy engine, and keep in mind that you already need the 5 gold cost to build the walls, so in reality this strategy costs

21 GOLD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Shield will be nerfed. It's going to be nerfed because the boy cried wolf. But not just 1 boy, but every single one. 

I feel like I have the curse of Cassandra. I tell the truth but nobody believes me. 

 

Meanwhile, the Commander Helm is severely underwhelming and people complain about a very expensive shield that you need 4 of to beat a raid boss.

 

 

[Well-met]

5 minutes ago, chirsg said:

Are we looking at the same video here?

Am I stupid? 

Do I fail to see the value in the shield?

 

Let me list some things here.

- Dragonfly fight with walls.

- Pan Flute

- 16 GOLD!!!!!

I need to reiterate the last part 

16 GOLD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

That's 8 battle helms! To make one hambat, you need 5 nuggets. 1 science machine and 1 alchemy engine, and keep in mind that you already need the 5 gold cost to build the walls, so in reality this strategy costs

21 GOLD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Shield will be nerfed. It's going to be nerfed because the boy cried wolf. But not just 1 boy, but every single one. 

I feel like I have the curse of Cassandra. I tell the truth but nobody believes me. 

 

Meanwhile, the Commander Helm is severely underwhelming and people complain about a very expensive shield that you need 4 of to beat a raid boss.

 

 

the 8 battle helms don't prevent getting you hurt or flinching (and at no cost)

[chirsg]

2 minutes ago, Well-met said:

the 8 battle helms don't prevent getting you hurt or flinching (and at no cost)

1,2,3,4,5,6 Dodge. 

[lenship2]

"skill op, pls nerf"

[arubaro]

22 minutes ago, Well-met said:

it's odd that it doesn't lose durability on block.

it's also odd that its damage isn't axe damage.

why would it have axe damage?? do you know that starts on cold down when you equip it?

8 minutes ago, chirsg said:

1,2,3,4,5,6 Dodge. 

oh, come on. i dont want a nerf for the shield but is easier to use and is used by a character with 200hp, 25%armor and life leech... if you are going to use these kind of comparisons you deserve it nerfed

[CCCR33]

In fact, if the shield block consumes durability, the shield cannot be used a few times, and it only has an advantage in a few special bosses. In the later stages of the game, it will be eliminated due to the lack of planar damage

[prettynuggets]

2 hours ago, Arcwell said:

Let's picture a world where Battle Rond's block has 100% damage absorption but still takes damage to durability,

thats is why i say this 

5 hours ago, prettynuggets said:

klei can do something like this 
it took x% damage to the shield durability when do perfect blocking 
and it took y% damage to the shield durability and z% of damage to wigfrid  when holding the shield stance too long.
im not sure how i should word this but i think its better than having it not decrease its durability at all.

im not saying it works like regular armor. where all damage that it took went into your armor.
imagine that battle rond having its own armor. 
at perfect block it took -example- 20% of total damage to the max health durability of rond and 0 damage to u.
at bad timing block example- 20% of total damage to the max health durability of rond and 20% damage to u.

if as u said (75 damage and 420 durability,im so lazy to recheck). perfect blocking will take 20% from 75 so 15. perfect blocking in one shield would last after 28 blocking stance, and 0 damage to wigfrid.
and usually the damage taken between armor also shared so it will be more if u use another armor right? so i bet u can do more blocking. 
so if its like in ur video rn 1% used/ hit and 3.5% durability used when blocking 100% of damage




 

[chirsg]

Wigfrid mains vs Wigfrid haters.

[NoodlemanNed]

11 minutes ago, chirsg said:

[HowlVoid]

The irony that the day Klei decides to buff FF hell will have frozen over.

[somethin]

It has been... 10 years? of Dfly existing in DST. She's not a a very hard boss, just annoyingly tanky with simple kiting patterns. Why are we using Dfly as measurement of difficulty at this point...

[Fufuji]

This stupid piece of weapon definitely needs a tweak on crafting materials.

4 Gold is too much expensive before taking down the Ruins, and after that Gold become trash.

[Wigfried]

• The shield's damage is not high enough to compare to the ham stick, and the shield's strength is still low!!!

[black hole]

9 hours ago, Jakepeng99 said:

It never needed the parry or any other buffs. It was only the skills that were weak, not the shield. I suggest removing the parry because unlike Willow little skill is needed. The shield could lose some durability when blocking.

 

It being a speedrunner is irrelavant, this is not near hard to learn.

2 gold and 4 beefalo wool probably should not be better than bone armour.

You think it's better than bone armor because you completely forget that when you use a shield to block, it also means you cannot attack with other weapons, and the attack power of the shield is inferior to even a ham bat and it has low durability. But when wearing bone armor, you can use any weapon, allowing you to have both high damage and perfect defense.

Just now, black hole said:

你以为它比骨甲好，因为你完全忘记了，当你用盾牌格挡时，也意味着你不能用其他武器攻击，盾牌的攻击力连火腿蝙蝠都差，耐久度低。但是当穿着骨甲时，你可以使用任何武器，让你既有高伤害又有完美的防御。

And the defense of bone armor is automatic, having no impact on your attacks at all, but the defense of the shield is troublesome, requiring premeditated action, and can only defend in one direction, all of which are far inferior to bone armor.

[Guille6785]

"Wigfrid's shield is op" links a video showing a strategy with it that is literally worse than just kiting

 

edit: I also find the argument of this being easier than kiting to be extremely obtuse when dfly's kiting window is so generous I can literally kite her at 400% speed, if you're off a road all you have to do is move away after the 6th hit and that's it, if you're on a road you can occasionally get 7 if she flinches, this does not take any more actions than blocking with the shield and there's no excuse you wouldn't be able to do this with wigfrid because that gold from the shields can be turned into tons of battle helms; even if you're only dodging half of her attacks you're still saving resources 

[Lardee]

I actually agree with the OP to an extent.  Kiting Dragonfly is not easy. The window is tight and it takes practice to get the timing right.  It takes way less skill to block Dragonfly's hits with the shield vs kiting it the traditional way. 

The problem is that if what Arcwell said holds true, this tactic can only be used against 4 bosses.  The rest of them just hit too fast or have minions that you have to deal with.  So overall, I don't see an issue with the way the shield is.