Wigfrid's shield is op

[Jakepeng99]

It never needed the parry or any other buffs. It was only the skills that were weak, not the shield. I suggest removing the parry because unlike Willow little skill is needed. The shield could lose some durability when blocking.

 

It being a speedrunner is irrelavant, this is not near hard to learn.

 

 

 

2 gold and 4 beefalo wool probably should not be better than bone armour.

[Mysterious box]

3 minutes ago, Jakepeng99 said:

It never needed the parry or any other buffs. It was only the skills that were weak, not the shield. I suggest removing the parry because unlike Willow little skill is needed. The shield could lose some durability when blocking.

 

 

 

 

Okay that is pretty silly.

[Arcwell]

Please. Stop. Using.

A world record speedrunner.

To prove your point.

[arubaro]

is op because you can time it to evade damage.... kitting is op, pls nerf it

[Mike23Ua]

Isn’t a shield supposed to errr you know, block damage? I think it’s doing it’s intended job..

[prettynuggets]

13 minutes ago, Arcwell said:

Please. Stop. Using.

A world record speedrunner.

To prove your point.

this might be silly to do post like this but for once i kinda get the idea of this post . if u watch the video its seems like he didnt do nothing but do normal hit and block since the window between dragonfly raise arm and hit, is pretty easy do do block. there is no need to force yourself to do attack animation canceling either. 
this fight basically just 7 hit and block on repeat.
if u see the OP said

22 minutes ago, Jakepeng99 said:

gold and 4 beefalo wool probably should not be better than bone armour.

i think i kinda agree. blocking should have decreased the durability. it just like u using damage when using shield of teror and bone armor at the same time. having it not decreasing durability + damage block is way too insane.
did u know u can stay alive when fully block 2nd phase CC spin if u took shield up skill? 
maybe instead of not decreasing its durability 
klei can do something like this 
it took x% damage to the shield durability when do perfect blocking 
and it took y% damage to the shield durability and z% of damage to wigfrid  when holding the shield stance too long.
im not sure how i should word this but i think its better than having it not decrease its durability at all.

shield should take damage if being used to block damage.. 

 

[Jakepeng99]

40 minutes ago, Arcwell said:

Please. Stop. Using.

A world record speedrunner.

To prove your point.

You dont need to be a speedrunner, from looking at the video blind it would look like a casual player. the shield straight up makes you invincable when timed. It does not suddenly invalidate since what they are doing in the actual video is simple. Use it yourself against any elidgable boss.

38 minutes ago, arubaro said:

is op because you can time it to evade damage.... kitting is op, pls nerf it

Kiting creatures like dragonfly is really tough. This is signifcantly easier, cheaper, faster and more efficent due to not missing out on damage.

12 minutes ago, prettynuggets said:

this might be silly to do post like this but for once i kinda get the idea of this post . if u watch the video its seems like he didnt do nothing but do normal hit and block since the window between dragonfly raise arm and hit, is pretty easy do do block. there is no need to force yourself to do attack animation canceling either. 
this fight basically just 7 hit and block on repeat.
if u see the OP said

i think i kinda agree. blocking should have decreased the durability. it just like u using damage when using shield of teror and bone armor at the same time. having it not decreasing durability + damage block is way too insane.
did u know u can stay alive when fully block 2nd phase CC spin if u took shield up skill? 
maybe instead of not decreasing its durability 
klei can do something like this 
it took x% damage to the shield durability when do perfect blocking 
and it took y% damage to the shield durability and z% of damage to wigfrid  when holding the shield stance too long.
im not sure how i should word this but i think its better than having it not decrease its durability at all.

shield should take damage if being used to block damage.. 

 

Precisely. 

[goatt]

I think it's unfair that snurtle shells lose so much durability tanking when it costs the shields 0 durability.

 

43 minutes ago, Arcwell said:

Please. Stop. Using.

A world record speedrunner.

To prove your point.

Speedrunner isn't relevant here, because this use can be easily widespread with a small learning curve and low skill requirement. Anyone who uses the shield would use it this way. That's exactly how I play, too.

We should move our attention away from "speedrunner", because things exclusive to speedrunners, such as planning, deep knowledge, high skill, luck-dependency, compromising decisions, etc., are not present in the battle of shield vs dragonfly.

[Jakepeng99]

1 minute ago, goatt said:

I think it's unfair that snurtle shells lose so much durability tanking when it costs the shields 0 durability.

 

Speedrunner isn't relevant here, because this use can be easily widespread with a small learning curve and low skill requirement. Anyone who uses the shield would use it this way. That's exactly how I play, too.

We should move our attention away from "speedrunner", because things exclusive to speedrunners, such as planning, deep knowledge, high skill, luck-dependency, compromising decisions, etc., are not present in the battle of shield vs dragonfly.

Most people have already mastered this from the forge aswell. (And as you said, it is not that hard to learn since this is much more forgiving than the forge version). I support your point of view.

[Arcwell]

17 minutes ago, Jakepeng99 said:

You dont need to be a speedrunner, from looking at the video blind it would look like a casual player. the shield straight up makes you invincable when timed. It does not suddenly invalidate since what they are doing in the actual video is simple. Use it yourself against any elidgable boss.

Kiting creatures like dragonfly is really tough. This is signifcantly easier, cheaper, faster and more efficent due to not missing out on damage.

It works against 4 of of 21, and I'd argue only 2 of them are good examples:

• Dragonfly
• T3 Shadow Rook
• Deerclops: Still freezes you
• Celestial Champion: Requires duration skill. Doesn't work against P1 stomp attack or P2 gestalt attack or P3 gestalt attack. Doesn't do anything vs. gestalts or sleep crystals.

The other bosses attack faster than the cooldown allows. It is extremely matchup dependent which is why basing your view off of one video on one boss (and getting others to as well) is a problem.

Having character-specific advantages in certain matchups is a good thing. Take for example Wurt who can stomp Bee Queen with a merm army but struggles to put a dent in Celestial Champion before they all die.

[Jakepeng99]

18 minutes ago, Arcwell said:

It works against 4 of of 21, and I'd argue only 2 of them are good examples:

• Dragonfly
• T3 Shadow Rook
• Deerclops: Still freezes you
• Celestial Champion: Requires duration skill. Doesn't work against P1 stomp attack or P2 gestalt attack or P3 gestalt attack. Doesn't do anything vs. gestalts or sleep crystals.

The other bosses attack faster than the cooldown allows. It is extremely matchup dependent which is why basing your view off of one video on one boss (and getting others to as well) is a problem.

Having character-specific advantages in certain matchups is a good thing. Take for example Wurt who can stomp Bee Queen with a merm army but struggles to put a dent in Celestial Champion before they all die.

Fair point, though i still believe it is overtuned.

[grm9]

1 minute ago, Jakepeng99 said:

Fair point, though i still believe it is overtuned.

no, it's inferior to ham bat when used against all bosses except dfly and shadow rook 

[NoodlemanNed]

can you show us a video of this weapon being overpowered against bee queen

[goatt]

33 minutes ago, Arcwell said:

It works against 4 of of 21 bosses ... Having character-specific advantages in certain matchups is a good thing.

The op part is not that shield can do it, but it can do it unfairly.

Wurt can do BQ, but at what cost? So much time on building an army and everything.

Snurtle Shells can do the same, but with what cost? A fair and normal damage to its durability.

What does it cost the Rond Shield to take a hit or multiple hits? Nothing.

This has never happened before in the game. Even the final boss loot bone armor has costs in order to block damage.

This is not about what Rond can do, but about how incredibly cheap it is.

[Jakepeng99]

13 minutes ago, NoodlemanNed said:

can you show us a video of this weapon being overpowered against bee queen

Nothing is overpowered against bee queen because bee queen herself is overpowered.

[grm9]

7 minutes ago, goatt said:

The op part is not that shield can do it, but it can do it unfairly.

Wurt can do BQ, but at what cost? So much time on building an army and everything.

Snurtle Shells can do the same, but with what cost? A fair and normal damage to its durability.

What does it cost the Rond Shield to take a hit or multiple hits? Nothing.

This has never happened before in the game. Even the final boss loot bone armor has costs in order to block damage.

This is not about what Rond can do, but about how incredibly cheap it is.

you still need multiple of them if you're going to deal damage, you can also do same thing using a ham bat and a flute

[Jakepeng99]

7 minutes ago, goatt said:

This is not about what Rond can do, but about how incredibly cheap it is.

It would be balanced on the shield of terror.

Just now, grm9 said:

you still need multiple of them if you're going to deal damage, you can also do same thing using a ham bat and a flute/ice staff 

Gold and beefalo wool is easily mass produced. A ham bat makes you take damage and need armour, notice that this method they only have walls, flute and 4 shields with nothing more. 8 gold and 16 beefalo wool along with the classic wall costs.

[grm9]

3 minutes ago, Jakepeng99 said:

It would be balanced on the shield of terror.

Gold and beefalo wool is easily mass produced. A ham bat makes you take damage and need armour, notice that this method they only have walls, flute and 4 shields with nothing more. 8 gold and 16 beefalo wool along with the classic wall costs.

you don't need healing and armor if you use flute before dfly flies back to you after spawning lavaes and kite the entire time 

[Captain_Rage]

The Rönd also completely negates the most unforgiving attack of the Celestial Champion in the second phase if you roughly time it right. Not sure why Klei made it so incredibly good.

[grm9]

6 minutes ago, Captain_Rage said:

The Rönd also completely negates the most unforgiving attack of the Celestial Champion in the second phase if you roughly time it right. Not sure why Klei made it so incredibly good.

you just need to start walking away after doing 5 or so hits after it performs two attacks after a spin, it's extremely easy to avoid it 

[Mysterious box]

24 minutes ago, grm9 said:

you don't need healing and armor if you use flute before dfly flies back to you after spawning lavaes and kite the entire time 

flute still uses durability and kiting requires more skill.

[prettynuggets]

the problem is shield should loss some durability when tanking damage.. isnt that just common sense? 

[Jakepeng99]

32 minutes ago, grm9 said:

you don't need healing and armor if you use flute before dfly flies back to you after spawning lavaes and kite the entire time 

...

 

This is unrealistic and highly unreasonable.

 

 

[Arcwell]

44 minutes ago, goatt said:

The op part is not that shield can do it, but it can do it unfairly.

Wurt can do BQ, but at what cost? So much time on building an army and everything.

Snurtle Shells can do the same, but with what cost? A fair and normal damage to its durability.

What does it cost the Rond Shield to take a hit or multiple hits? Nothing.

This has never happened before in the game. Even the final boss loot bone armor has costs in order to block damage.

This is not about what Rond can do, but about how incredibly cheap it is.

2 minutes ago, prettynuggets said:

the problem is shield should loss some durability when tanking damage.. isnt that just common sense? 

Block having damage to durability would not work in practice. Let me explain.

Let's picture a world where Battle Rond's block has 100% damage absorption but still takes damage to durability, the same way snurtle armor does when you hide in its shell.
In the video, Ameslarii blocks Dragonfly's swipe 57 times. That's 4,275 damage (57 * 75). Wigfrid's shield has 420 durability. That would mean to do the same fight, you would need 10 shields on top of the 4 shields required for damage, for a total of 14 shields.
Now let's picture that same scenario but instead of blocking at all, Wigfrid simply tanks everything w/heartrending ballad. Better yet, I can show you what that looks like:

Spoiler

This clear ended with 2 shields at 100%, meaning tanking costs 12 shields. It would literally be cheaper than blocking.

In other words, if block dealt damage to durability, there would be functionally no reason to use it at all.

[goatt]

6 minutes ago, Arcwell said:

This clear ended with 2 shields at 100%, meaning tanking costs 12 shields. It would literally be cheaper than blocking.

That “not working” version would be about as op as Wurt’s merm army.
 

3 Rönd shields is way more op than Wurt’s merms if 3 is enough to kill dragonfly without high skill.

1 hour ago, grm9 said:

you still need multiple of them if you're going to deal damage, you can also do same thing using a ham bat and a flute

Sorry, I fail to see your point. “Still need multiple”, but how many, 4? That’s one night worth of beef shaving and 1 trip of PK.

The cost is trivia compared to other methods (like recent willow power), Especially since we can calculate the supposed “fair” cost, which is probably 10 times or 20 times more expensive, as farming shells are extremely timing consuming and labor intensive.