Why I think planar damage is bad for DST

[goatt]

Tl:dr. it's bad because of complicated math and the lack of communicative feedback.

 

I understand planar damage's goal, which is to keep old weapons and armors as good as before, but allow new items to be more powerful specifically against new mobs. And the planar system does achieve that goal.

But when it meets the developers' goal, to me, as a player, it always feels like something is off. But I couldn't explain it. So I've been supportive or neutral since it came out.

 

Now, I think I can explain it, hear me out.

reason 1: math

DST has a simple feel to me. I can do complicated things by combining many simple mechanics. But none of the mechanics were too complicated by themselves. For example, rain + electric damage, simple, but wicker + wolfgang + chef, complicated, but still simple, and very powerful. Pig fighting each other? Complicated, but the mechanic is extremely simple.

I can't think of any DST mechanics that are complicated by themselves. Let me know if there is one.

But the planar system breaks that implicit rule for me. The formula is difficult to remember for me. The math requires me to go to an advanced calculator. It only makes sense when I'm empathetic to the developers, it never made sense to me as a player. It's a means to a problem. But not a good game design or game experience. The game chose numbers such as 17, 27, 34, 51, 68 for good reasons.

 

reason 2: communicative feedback

The biggest problem of all, it doesn't have communicative feedback.

Let me explain it by referencing other mobs that have defense. Snurtles, cave spiders, and rock lobsters hiding in a shell is very communicative feedback. Toadstool with mushroom trees that runs like a speeding truck is a very communicative feedback. And the final boss, fuelweaver, very communicative shield feedback.

Now we have planar defense, that significantly reduces wolfgang's power, but without a significant visual or sound effect or animation. I don't know how to elaborate it, but it's just bad. (Wolfgang is used here as an example, not because I care about him, but because he brings the most dramatic effect. Don't be distracted by wolfgang)

Good feedback should tell players that this mob is different. Specifically, it should very explicitly tell players their regular weapons are doing reduced damage. Little shining sparks of brightshade sword are not enough to communicate this, because darkswords already have similarly great shadow effects and sound.

 

Outro

This time, players are required to look up wikis and watch tutorials if they want to figure out what's going on. And even if they do, they can only vaguely know that this weapon is better, but can't explain how much. I cannot feel like an expert and make informed decisions because of how obscure the mechanics are. It's so obscured that the game even added punchbags with numbers on it to help players learn. And yet, I still see posts in the forum asking how when people trying to get precise math.

Never once had DST provided a way to inspect an item's property stats as far as I remember (health and durability stats are not fixed properties, they are different). I think this shows DST also knows it's a problem that hinders the DST-style game experience.

 

To summarize the problem. 1. obscure math, 2. lack of communicative feedback.

My solution

I will post my solution in the spoiler, but that's just my attempt. You can skip it.

Spoiler

Planar Defense removed

New Mobs have innate shield skills against earthly weapons.

 

Visual feedback of shield

When mobs get hit, they show a transparent shield-shaped bubble around them. Mobs remember the damage it has taken in the last 20 hits from all players. When the average damage inflicted on mobs is low, the shield bubble looks transparent. When the damage is high, the shield will look more solidified or display more shield layers.

 

Shield Levels

Shield has 5 levels based on the average damage received in the last 20 hits by any players.

As players hit harder, mobs will wear more shield bubbles to defend themselves.

Spoiler

Level 1: 15% reduction, average damage <= 34 (spear)

Level 2: 30% reduction, average damage <= 68 (ds)

level 3: 45% reduction, average damage <= 136 (ds * 2)

level 4: 60% reduction, average damage <= 200 (gunpowder)

level 5: 75% reduction, average damage > 200 (stacked gunpowders)

Note that, each level will inform players by showing different shield bubbles.

(This shield animation, code and sprite are reusable for different mobs, also allows custom defense ability for weaker or stronger planar mobs)

 

Less Direct Character-specific nerf

If a wolfgang is fighting with a wes, it takes the average of both of their damage. Even tho it still nerfs wolfgang, it feels less direct. But more empowering experience. Like "as a wolfgang, I triggered mob's level 5 defense".

 

Visual feedback effect of planar penetration

Display a cracked shield bubble.

 

real outro

Thanks for reading. Hope it will inspire some new ideas.

In Python world, there is a term called Pythonic code. Python borrows ideas and functionalities from other languages, but it's preferred by its fans to write those functionalities in the Python way. Same with art styles. Arts can be inspired by each other. But an artist's original art styles are identities. I know I appear to be weirdly obsessive with this, but I think DST has its own identities too. As the community expands, some identities are being forgotten slowly because the game has to serve to the majority after all.

But the identity I'm discussing in this post feels more like a dev's design principle that I picked up, which may be wrong. But I hope to prolong it. DST can borrow concepts from other games, but I hope its implementation still feels like DST to me.

[WenericMember]

I think post rework farming would break the simplicity rule. Stress points has how many different factors? weeds, Water, Fertaliser, plant concentration, Nutrients, Talking to them and who knows what else.

As for communicative feedback... The game doesn't even have health bars. I agree that a lack of visual feedback is an issue, but its not restricted to planar. When I got back into the game and tried to actually learn it, It was an incredibly frustrating experience because I didn't know how much progress I was making. (I eventually installed the HP bar mod and had a much better time with it lol. I'm still not overly good but can finally hold my own in combat.)

[Cassielu]

I think  your solution is much more complex than the original planar entity formula. Whether it's math or gameplay logic.

I have to do intense action scenes while doing mental arithmetic. In original version I can at least use boxer to see how much damage I can deal, adjust my gear, and when I'm ready I can leave it behind in real fight.

But the ideas of bubble visual effects increase with attack damage is amazing, I sincerely hope it will happen.

3 hours ago, goatt said:

Let me know if there is one.

Once you trying to figure out something, you will see how complicated (or chaos) this game is. Like Rain, Sleep, Dock, Temperature, Collision, Structural Place, Pathfinding, Crock Pot, Fire, Deconstruction Staff, Enlightenment Area ... And Electric Damage are actually extremely complicated mechanism than Planar Damage, You can't even find two identical "Electrical Damage" in the game.

Planar Damage are quite concise and consistent in this game.

[dois raios]

46 minutes ago, goatt said:

reason 2: communicative feedback

But they do, when you attack with a non-planar damage weapon, there is a different sound and visual effect.

[Theukon-dos]

Ignoring my other resignations against Planar Mechanics. I definitly agree that it's just weird actually dealing it is so...weird. Part of a weapon deals physical, the rest deals planar, player modifiers ignore the planar part, but planar mobs also resist the physical part of the sword?

 

Couldn't this have all been done with like, 2 tags? One for enemies to say when they're planar, and thus resist non-planar damage, and another for weapons to mark when they deal planar damage, thus can hit planar enemies and ignore a player's damage modifier?

 

This wouldn't fix planar damage in my eyes, but atleast it would be easy to understand at a glance.

[Cassielu]

23 minutes ago, Theukon-dos said:

Couldn't this have all been done with like, 2 tags? One for enemies to say when they're planar, and thus resist non-planar damage, and another for weapons to mark when they deal planar damage, thus can hit planar enemies and ignore a player's damage modifier?

That's exactly how they work now.

[Tranoze]

3 hours ago, goatt said:

Now we have planar defense, that significantly reduces wolfgang's power, but without a significant visual or sound effect or animation. I don't know how to elaborate it, but it's just bad. (Wolfgang is used here as an example, not because I care about him, but because he brings the most dramatic effect. Don't be distracted by wolfgang)

They do have a visual of shadow/lunar shield + sound. Only applied when use normal weapon attacking planar defense mob. When you use planar weapon, this effect is removed.

[goatt]

3 hours ago, WenericMember said:

I think post rework farming would break the simplicity rule.

I don't think it does. It can be described as "plant a seed, get crops or weeds".

The point system is straightforward once you learn it. More care = more harvest: no weed, in season, talk every stage, water, crowd but no overcrowding, nutrients. Straight forward, I didn't look up wikis.

[Spino43]

2 minutes ago, goatt said:

I don't think it does. It can be described as "plant a seed, get crops or weeds".

The point system is straightforward once you learn it. More care = more harvest: no weed, in season, talk every stage, water, crowd but no overcrowding, nutrients. Straight forward, I didn't look up wikis.

It's infinitely more complicated than the old farm.

Same for ocean fishing compared to pond fishing.

[goatt]

 

3 hours ago, Cassielu said:

I think  your solution is much more complex than the original planar entity formula. Whether it's math or gameplay logic.

I'm basing mine on toadstool's mushroom trees. It's a simple tier system. Players only need to see more shields to understand that they are dealing reduced damage. There is no need to do arithmetic in your head, because the damage reduction is visible by how many shield quantity.

 

11 minutes ago, Spino43 said:

It's infinitely more complicated than the old farm.

Same for ocean fishing compared to pond fishing.

It is more complicated than the old farm, but compared to old farm is a bit unrelated. Old farm is like a berry bush.

But new farm is conceptually simple, even tho you can go in depth. That's why it's a simple mechanics with depth. Same with pigman. They can ingroup fight to farm meat, can transform, can wear armors, and can be cheered. Each one of them is simple, but it's the combination that creates complexity. It's the same with farming, and ocean fish. Lure, float, seasons, etc, each of them is very simple.

The planar damage reduction is the first mechanic in the game that has a seemingly simple math formula but no average person can understand it by looking at it. And you won't fully get it even after learning it.

(Actually, now I think about it, it's not the first one. The first one is WX lightning overcharge timer accumulation formula. I also did heavy math on that)

 

3 hours ago, Cassielu said:

Like Rain, Sleep, Dock, Temperature, Collision, Structural Place, Pathfinding, Crock Pot, Fire, Deconstruction Staff, Enlightenment Area ... And Electric Damage are actually extremely complicated mechanism than Planar Damage, You can't even find two identical "Electrical Damage" in the game.

I'm not sure how each of them is complicated to players. They are complicated to implement, yes, but easy to understand to players.

Most weapons have different damage, but they are still simple. Why is electric damage complicated?  Why no two identical damage means being complicated?

3 hours ago, dois raios said:

But they do, when you attack with a non-planar damage weapon, there is a different sound and visual effect.

But you won't know is it because of weapon effects or something else. It's unclear. Darksword also has its unique visual and sound effects. So does electrical damage. The planar sparks could just mean the weapons are alien technology.

 

1 hour ago, Tranoze said:

They do have a visual of shadow/lunar shield + sound. Only applied when use normal weapon attacking planar defense mob. When you use planar weapon, this effect is removed.

Now you explicitly say it, I can only say it's not explicitly enough for me to have taken that implication. Maybe it's too subtle for me (not for you). I think if the weapons have a special status, their feedback needs to be more explicit.

[Pomato]

Just keep hitting it till it's dead. 

And don't get hit or you're dead.

I don't know why people make things sound more complicated than it is.

[Gashzer]

Uhh with different punching bags we now have an ingame way to quantify attacks. This came about with planar damage. We have more communication than we ever have had about attack damage.

Planar damage is great because it doesnt completely invalidate dark swords or thulecite clubs if you want to use them with warbis helm. There are still barely any planar mobs compared to nonplanar mobs.

[landromat]

2 hours ago, goatt said:

But you won't know is it because of weapon effects or something else. It's unclear. Darksword also has its unique visual and sound effects. So does electrical damage. The planar sparks could just mean the weapons are alien technology.

is this unclear to you? If you can't see it because of your dark sword effect hit it with a cane once. You'll instantly know it's there.

[_zwb]

18 minutes ago, landromat said:

is this unclear to you? If you can't see it because of your dark sword effect hit it with a cane once. You'll instantly know it's there.

The fx is clear but the meaning behind this fx(planar entity protection) is not.

[landromat]

3 minutes ago, _zwb said:

The fx is clear but the meaning behind this fx(planar entity protection) is not.

Yeah when my weapon deals less damage and enemy glow with protective barrier fx it is very unclear 

[goatt]

30 minutes ago, landromat said:

is this unclear to you? If you can't see it because of your dark sword effect hit it with a cane once. You'll instantly know it's there.

Thanks for the effort to find an image. So that's exactly what I'm talking about. What is that? Can you point that to a random person and ask: does it look like a "protection" effect?

 

1 hour ago, The Box said:

I don't know why people make things sound more complicated than it is.

Not "people", just me. Don't need to generalize it and label other people. 

Not that I want to make it sound complicated. This has always been so complicated for me since it was in the game.

[landromat]

5 minutes ago, goatt said:

Thanks for the effort to find an image. So that's exactly what I'm talking about. What is that? Can you point that to a random person and ask: does it look like a "protection" effect?

yes i can. remember that's animation and not a static effect and it clearly shows something like force field being hit

[Cheggf]

7 hours ago, goatt said:

But the planar system breaks that implicit rule for me. The formula is difficult to remember for me. The math requires me to go to an advanced calculator.

You don't need to remember the formula or go to a calculator because you don't need to know the exact damage you're dealing. There's plenty of reasons planar is bad, but it using a weird formula isn't one of them.

[goatt]

11 minutes ago, Cheggf said:

There's plenty of reasons planar is bad, but it using a weird formula isn't one of them.

I've realized I'm a weird one. But it doesn't mean I need to feel like how other people feel. Sorry.

 

21 minutes ago, landromat said:

yes i can. remember that's animation and not a static effect and it clearly shows something like force field being hit

That's putting words in my mouth. I don't need to tell other people to tell me how I should feel.

I'm only voicing my own feeling after a serious thinking. You dont have to agree with me. But you don't need to make me agree with you either.

[arubaro]

why do you need to understand the exact numbers in a mechanic? just use the dummies to see you are doing less damage lmao

the only problem with "planar mechanics" is how cheap is using the new loot. Before rifts you choose your gear based on the materials available but rift gear stockpile pretty quick to the point that isnt worth to use anything else.

Before rifts you use hambat or shield of terror because is 50 cheap damage or spear if you are a noob that cant afford using other weapon in ordinary tasks, if you want more damage you use dark swords or thulecite club. Glass cutter because is uber cheap (ironically klei killed glass cutter cuz the only time you might use it is after CC's millions dropped glass...). Now you just pick between your  shadow or moon new higher damage cheap weapon and stick with it until the end of times

Atleast armor wise we still have more variety of options

 

i wish other sandbox have such mechanics, makes no sense to play games like core keeper or terraria which bosses have drop percentage so you are forced to repeat the fight, with their uninspired progression you are yawning while one shotting bosses safely with higher tier gear...

[Valase]

9 hours ago, goatt said:

My solution

I will post my solution in the spoiler, but that's just my attempt. You can skip it.

  Hide contents

Shield Levels

Shield has 5 levels based on the average damage received in the last 20 hits by any players.

As players hit harder, mobs will wear more shield bubbles to defend themselves.

  Hide contents

Level 1: 15% reduction, average damage <= 34 (spear)

Level 2: 30% reduction, average damage <= 68 (ds)

level 3: 45% reduction, average damage <= 136 (ds * 2)

level 4: 60% reduction, average damage <= 200 (gunpowder)

level 5: 75% reduction, average damage > 200 (stacked gunpowders)

Note that, each level will inform players by showing different shield bubbles.

(This shield animation, code and sprite are reusable for different mobs, also allows custom defense ability for weaker or stronger planar mobs)

If only we could use a formula to not have to manually do this...

Jokes aside this is the same thing as rebalancing the formula. Also, using a lot of unneeded "if's" is not a good programing pratice. Which is what it is asking "if damage >= 34 AND <68"