Suggestion: make the celestial portal work only once per player

[Prinha]

37 minutes ago, Zeklo said:

And y'know? I'm fine with that. I really hate what it does for the game, but some people like it.

Oh please, enlighten me. What does the celestial portal do to the game?

Either somebody is playing with mutiple people or they aren't. 

If they play with mutiple people the reasons to use the portal go down, because people can and usually will pick different characters that complement each other. When I'm playing on popular community endless servers, there usually is Warly mains, Winona mains, Wes mains and all these other characters that get brought up at being "swap" only due to the portal's existence.

If they play alone, they are free to never use the portal or use it with every kind of restriction they can think of. It gives freemdom, also the freedom to implement quirky and very unique characters, because solo players have access to every character perk. It has been said in this thread before, nerfing the portal is just going to encourage an actual meta that doesn't exist at this point.

 

Quote

Heavy disagree. Skill trees are supposed to be a choice. You're supposed to pick some, at the cost of others—it's literally why you can't choose them all.
Only you can... With the portal. Which makes the entire system an absolute joke [for certain characters].

Except you can't. You can reset the tree and redistribute points in a new way. But you don't magically get to have more than 15 points and suddenly choose every perk at once. The limitation is inherent to the trees themselves and has nothing to with a redistribution. A possbility to change perks should absolutely be in the game. It's not even in the slightest in DST's spirit to lock you into some bad coice you made. Up until then starting over with new experience was at the chore of the game.

Yes, I understand that you hate the idea, that somebody switches an early game skilltree into a midgame skill tree into a lategame skill tree. That somebody stays on the same character, but switches his playstyle and perks on a whim. That somebody goes from shadow destroying Wolfgang to lunar destroying Wolfgang and so forth. Which one of these stances (if any) the player chooses for his character is an exclusive choice. It's just not the all encompassing choice that you are stuck with for the rest of that playthrough's life that you want it to be.

I for one welcome it. More choices, more freedom, more individualism, more unique ideas, more creativity. Will there be boss strategies that only work if you are a certain character with a certain perk and will they compete with all the existing metas? Like juggling crabking to death? Will there be new speedruns? New farming methods? 

So far the skilltrees have made me play more different characters, including Wilson which I hadn't touched in years.

[Zeklo]

22 minutes ago, Prinha said:

That somebody goes from shadow destroying Wolfgang to lunar destroying Wolfgang and so forth. Which one of these stances (if any) the player chooses for his character is an exclusive choice.

I for one welcome it. More choices, more freedom, more individualism, more unique ideas, more creativity

A shadow-aligned/lunar aligned Wolfgang is great! If players choose to swap to them to fight the respective bosses too, that's also great! 

That there is a choice!

My problem isn't with anything you assumed—my problem is with 'dead' skills. Skills that start/become obsolete, because they aren't choices.

===

The thing with the Celestial Portal is that people think it's special, but it's not. It's a tool like anything else.

It's like if I said "dark swords are pretty damn strong for how cheap they are," and the response I get is "then you don't have to use them??"
That would sound pretty damn silly if I was giving criticism towards overtuned food or gear, but it comes up a ghastly amount in these discussions.

Wolfgang might as well just eat a purple gem to gain +X planar damage in the end game, because that's the result.

There's no choice or creativity. It's something you will do to not gimp yourself, like picking a better weapon for a hard fight.

Simple as.

[cropo]

13 minutes ago, Zeklo said:

my problem is with 'dead' skills. Skills that start/become obsolete, because they aren't choices.

I think a good example of what I think you're talking about is Wilsons transmute skill mastery, making an iridescent gem comes in handy once and then you pretty much have to swap it out. You can swap to the bone shard skill, convert all your fangs into bone shards and then reswap to distribute the skill tree.

 

If this is what you mean, I agree. I am guilty of doing this on Wilson, I think that's more of a problem of ''swap skills/characters'' in general and not the portals fault.  Picking Wormwood, making a bunch of monkey tails and then changing to a more useful skill tree option isn't really a choice or deliberate build on your part, they might as well have made it base-kit for Wormwood.

[CuteC]

I cannot even begin to describe how much this would harm the game.

Oh you started getting skills for this char and want to change them now that you have more? Tough luck lol.

Do you need a very specific thing and you play with literally no one using other chars? Skill issue.

Changing chars allows newer players to pick anyone they want and try them out, it allows for players with less people to be able to get items or do certain things they otherwise would not be able to, if you want to make it cost more than a purple gem and a single moon rock then sure, that probably would work out, but outright limiting so much how people can use it will not help anyone.

[Antynomity]

I don't like it myself, that's why I rarely use it. Doesn't mean I'm going to complain about something that could be and is useful for other players.

[xhyom]

22 minutes ago, Zeklo said:

It's like if I said "dark swords are pretty damn strong for how cheap they are," and the response I get is "then you don't have to use them??"
That would sound pretty damn silly if I was giving criticism towards overtuned food or gear, but it comes up a ghastly amount in these discussions.

It's silly how if you said that, which is something many actually say, no one would tell you to just don't use the dark sword, because that comparison makes no sense, only if you are being extremely literal. Weapons are a vital part of the gameplay and how they work changes the way we play, it's not something optional, you need weapons to play this game, but you don't need to switch characters and build a hundred catapults, cook special foods with spices, make a thousand and fifty three berry bushes for decoration and make a sisturn to play the game and have fun and most players will not anyway. Increasing the celestial portal cost only affects newer players trying to switch characters, making the portal a lategame thing doesn't change a thing too as the "abuse" part is basically already a late game resource dump, limiting the amount of switches one can do is just more harmful than helpful to the game.

Skilltrees are badly designed and offer no choice almost so I can't really say it's a Celestial Portal issue...

[GelatinousCube]

This is so dumb. 

If you dont like it, don't use it. 

Why ask for the game to be changed in such a massive way that will negatively effect a majority of the community and completely change how people play simply because you want control over others. 

It's one thing to ask for a toggle in world settings for this (still dodgy because you are dictating and controlling how any one else who plays with you must play) but to seriously ask for some huge changes like this to be forced upon everyone is extremely rude and selfish. This game isn't designed for you it's designed for every player all over the world that plays it. The portal is exactly how klei made it and how they want it to work currently. If it was meant to be one use only in each world/server they would have done so a long long time ago.

Klei can you lock these threads, they're genuinely moronic.

[Guille6785]

I support this change, the high-level meta has been stagnating for quite some time now, season 3 of the DST world championship was honestly really boring to watch and I've been waiting for klei to do something to shake up the competitive scene

[ALCRD]

Guys guys!

We should be nerfing the rollback feature instead! To work once per character.

Cause that's proper broken op and gets exploited by everyone more than the celestial swap.

Even in multi i had blokes often vote rollback with their buddies cause they didn't get Mac Tusk drops they wanted.

OP as heck! NERF!

[GelatinousCube]

8 hours ago, Noaa said:

I think there is a real problem for certain players that they feel that sticking around on specific characters feels very "suboptimal," and they feel this pressure to swap off of characters where most of their useful perks persist after you swap off. 

Pressure from who or what...?

It's a SANDBOX/survival game. 

There is no competitive element to DST and if you're playing with someone who is being nasty because you aren't playing the most optimal and efficient way including constant swapping of characters not because you want to but because they demand it for specific  situations or bosses. Block/report that person, leave the server and find another/start your own.

That this tiny tiny amount of extremely vocal players have absolutely nothing forcing or encouraging them to play the most "suboptimal and efficient" way possible in a non competitive sandbox/survival game yet they feel they absolutely must because they used to play some gross game like WoW are genuinely asking for HUGE sweeping changes to the game (that they can literally just self impose or mod into the game but this isn't an option apparently because they have zero self control and if something exists they'll use even if they don't want to????? Um what?) that if klei intended would've been implemented years ago and that would negatively impact a HUGE amount of players is honestly one of the most selfish and childish things I've ever seen in my life. 

Just. Don't. Use. It. 

If you INSIST on being controlling over others experience and fun with the game, put a description in your server that you don't allow portal changes and kick anyone that ignores the rule (still super gross but you do you).

Seriously though stop asking for these changes. They are never EVER going to happen. The absolute most that might is the idols costing more and the portal being slightly later game to obtain/set up but I doubt it. Want to know why it won't happen outside of it being extremely selfish and already something you can easily self impose/mod? 

A huge amount of players would be extremely upset and many would likely stop playing as much or altogether. Skin sales would go way down because hey you can't change character and actually use them anymore without starting a new world. It wouldn't make sense for the games continued success in any way. 

It's not going to happen. Self impose or make a mod or play wilderness mode and stop asking for a change that'll ruin the game for so many players. 

[Bearger Enjoyer]

4 hours ago, Cassielu said:

Nerf CP is necessary.

A mechanic that hurts the game when fully exploited is not healthy.

It doesn't hurt anything. In fact, it has been the biggest buff to Warly and Winona's(so-called swap characters') existence. The only other thing to justify picking them is just liking them as characters; This lets them add something to the game until skill trees make them individually good.
By all means, it's just an extension of things-to-do for a solo player and mostly meaningless to multiplayer. Having more options to tackle the same problem is healthy for the game: The original DS had multiple ways to swap characters for a reason.

[GelatinousCube]

8 minutes ago, ALCRD said:

Guys guys!

We should be nerfing the rollback feature instead! To work once per character.

Cause that's proper broken op and gets exploited by everyone more than the celestial swap.

Even in multi i had blokes often vote rollback with their buddies cause they didn't get Mac Tusk drops they wanted.

OP as heck! NERF!

Guys!! 

We need to nerf even being allowed to change or have any access to the world settings and world generation at all!! 

Some players turn bosses up and don't have to wait as long before getting their loot again! Some players manipulate how their world is generated for efficiency or to make certain elements of the game easier, more fun or simply how they prefer it. How dare they!!!!

Some players turn food sources up or dangers down and make the game too easy.

Why should they get a leisurely experience while us sweaty hardcore players have to work for our progression!

So overpowered! Remove world settings and world generation screens!

[Prinha]

2 hours ago, Zeklo said:

My problem isn't with anything you assumed—my problem is with 'dead' skills. Skills that start/become obsolete, because they aren't choices.

Please give examples for specific dead skills.

The discussion of skills is highly individual. For example to me WW's petal production is useless, even detrimental. Yet, there is many people that love it. So it's really tough to make any argument saying "x skill is obsolete", because that's inherently a subjective assumption.

The only time I see a skill as obsolete is, when there is so many skills in some character's tree that are only relevant in the lategame, that the remaining 15 points cover everything else, including stuff, you would never pick, if the lategame choices were viable from the beginning on. That however is a problem of the skilltree in itself not the portal.

Having situational perks that are only occasionally chosen or chosen at specific times doesn't mean they are obsolete. They are viable and good for a certain time or a certain situation. Having the ability to switch actually improved these skills. If they couldn't be respecced, they would never be taken. Instead of MORE choice, there would be less, 

Say Wilson has the torch radius perks. These are very useful in the early game, where torches are used a lot. After some point however other forms of light get so much more prominent that having points in these perks feels useless to me. I'm happy the portal allows me to enjoy these perks early game and switch to something else lateron. If this wasn't the case, I would simply never take the torch perks at all in favour for stuff that is useful to me. This does not make the torch perks obsolete. It just makes them situational.

[Bearger Enjoyer]

5 minutes ago, GelatinousCube said:

Guys!! 

We need to nerf even being allowed to change or have any access to the world settings and world generation at all!! 

Some players turn bosses up and don't have to wait as long before getting their loot again! Some players manipulate how their world is generated for efficiency or to make certain elements of the game easier, more fun or simply how they prefer it. How dare they!!!!

Some players turn food sources up or dangers down and make the game too easy.

Why should they get a leisurely experience while us sweaty hardcore players have to work for our progression!

So overpowered! Remove world settings and world generation screens!

Noooo you don't get it, we should make the entire world a meteor field because that is fun and uncompromising!!!!

[Mike23Ua]

8 minutes ago, Bearger Enjoyer said:

It doesn't hurt anything. In fact, it has been the biggest buff to Warly and Winona's(so-called swap characters') existence. The only other thing to justify picking them is just liking them as characters; This lets them add something to the game until skill trees make them individually good.
By all means, it's just an extension of things-to-do for a solo player and mostly meaningless to multiplayer. Having more options to tackle the same problem is healthy for the game: The original DS had multiple ways to swap characters for a reason.

Wait what? I beat the entirety of solo DS 100% every achievement, but I never knew you could easily swap characters, usually I was STUCK playing as a certain character the entire time.

DS & DST are two completely separate games, In DS you quest through a 5 chapter adventures mode and trade places with Maxwell as the thrones captive, whoever this character WAS becomes Unplayable until you play through the game AGAIN as Maxwell and Re-Swap places with them.

Personally I don’t like using the Celestial Portal in DST because if I’m playing as Wes and then swap to Wolfgang or Wanda for boss fights I’m not really “Surviving” as Wes then am I?? No.. I’m bypassing being challenged by Wes’s stats Perks/Downsides, to literally become someone else.

For megabasers maybe they enjoy swapping to each playable character to craft their unique structures to decorate the world with such as might gym or Sisturns, But as for me I prefer for everything that’s been built in my world to be built by the character I started the save with.

[cropo]

4 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Wait what? I beat the entirety of solo DS 100% every achievement, but I never knew you could easily swap characters, usually I was STUCK playing as a certain character the entire time.

DS & DST are two completely separate games, In DS you quest through a 5 chapter adventures mode and trade places with Maxwell as the thrones captive, whoever this character WAS becomes Unplayable until you play through the game AGAIN as Maxwell and Re-Swap places with them.

???

 

Play in a world, find the thing that teleports you to shipwrecked or hamlet, or whatever world you don't care about. Find the things, break your thing that transports you between DLC's to recraft it, jump through the portal. Your EXP is cashed in and you get to select another character, with everything in your inventory still intact. Then, immediately build the teleporter and teleport back to RoG or wherever you were playing.

 

You just swapped characters, kept your world, and have everything in your inventory still.

 

Did you....really play DS?

 

Before the QoL update that added ruins seeds, doing this also reset the ruins and volcano for infinite renewable resources. If you reset Shipwrecked, hopped back into RoG your surface stayed the same but the ruins were reset. If you did it in RoG Shipwrecked world would persist, but the volcano would be reset. It's what made megabasing so easy in DS, you didn't have to kill a godly boss and do an entire questline to renew materials.

[Bearger Enjoyer]

Just now, Mike23Ua said:

Wait what? I beat the entirety of solo DS 100% every achievement, but I never knew you could easily swap characters, usually I was STUCK playing as a certain character the entire time.

You can also use hamlet to easily swap chars, or whichever world you don't like. It can take under a day. Also refreshes all non-renewables.
Adventure mode is for when you want to quit worldhopping.

 

1 minute ago, Mike23Ua said:

Personally I don’t like using the Celestial Portal in DST because if I’m playing as Wes and then swap to Wolfgang or Wanda for boss fights I’m not really “Surviving” as Wes then am I?? No.. I’m bypassing being challenged by Wes’s stats Perks/Downsides, to literally become someone else.

Good for you, but then it's self-imposed restriction territory anyway. What I explained was how the celestial portal made those "swap characters" more relevant overall, not less.
I know for a fact I would not touch Winona with a ten-foot pole if the portal didn't exist, and I know many others who wouldn't as well. We just need the skill trees to make them relevant on their own, like Maxwell, so you have the option to use them to add something to your world but they're still unique and good when you stay as them.

If the portal didn't exist, most of the remaining Warly players would be the people who need to show everyone that their job is to run errands and cook (and feel useful).

[ALCRD]

15 minutes ago, Bearger Enjoyer said:

You can also use hamlet to easily swap chars,

Wait what? How?

I know of the Adventure Mode method but what's the Hamlet trick?

[GLERMZ]

3 hours ago, Zeklo said:

Heavy disagree. Skill trees are supposed to be a choice. You're supposed to pick some, at the cost of others—it's literally why you can't choose them all.
Only you can... With the portal. Which makes the entire system an absolute joke [for certain characters].

The Celestial Portal, by design, weakens the weight of player choice.

And y'know? I'm fine with that. I really hate what it does for the game, but some people like it. So I've long since given up on a 'delete the portal stance.'

But Klei themselves needs to adapt to a DST where the portal exists. Character benefits can't just be craftables (e.g. warly), and skills need to actually be a choice even with the presence of the portal. Because otherwise... just buff characters after they beat a certain boss or something. It would feel about the same if there's a spec for early game and a spec for late game—not because of meta, but because the perks literally become obsolete.

e.g. this thread: 

 

They can simply put a CD on how often you can reset the skill tree if you using the portal. They track so much stuff, why not track the last time you reset your talents in that specific character? Also the biggest issue of the Trees is that they are permenent, meaning that you can switch to a character you never played in that world and already get a much stronger version of them. This should actually be changed so everytime you start a world you actually have to play the Character to feel stronger with, as-well as in endgame if you want to use a specific power of another, you have first to actually play them.

As for yet another Portal Conversation, in DS i can switch characters whenever i like by jumping in one of the 2 disposal worlds, with coffee you can even do it extremly fast. Asking for it to be a one time thing in DST that is a completely different game, with completely different characters, where it makes sense to switch your play around more than in DS, specially if you stick to long worlds, is baffling, but to each their own.
I would also not be opposed to the Portal being a post celestial champion, and only having its crafts unlock in the orb after its demise. As for the cost its fine as is, if they make it more expensive it only affects the grind, people will still change as much.

As for the Portal the only thing i always wished they did, was remove the bonus items spawn. Every character that starts with special items can craft them, so if you decide to change characters you can and should craft their special items. This would prevent some abuses when it comes to spider eggs, wanda clocks, etc.

I agree in adding a setting for those who want to disable the Portal feature, but the Portal is fine as it is, and was probably one of the best features they added way back in the day.

Regards

[Prinha]

4 minutes ago, Bearger Enjoyer said:

I know for a fact I would not touch Winona with a ten-foot pole if the portal didn't exist, and I know many others who wouldn't as well. We just need the skill trees to make them relevant on their own, like Maxwell, so you have the option to use them to add something to your world but they're still unique and good when you stay as them.

Me too. Meanwhile with the portal she actually starts to be one of my most played characters.

I can understand that there is people that want Winona and Warly to be strong choices for a solo-one-character-only playthroughs. For this to happen, their perks would have to be changed, not the portal. Warly in particular offers nothing, that can't be used by other characters and sports a hefty downside. The ability to carry a crockpot with you is largely meaningless as is his special spoilage bag, especially after bundling wrap, Winona at least has her - very appreciated - speed crafting.

I'm switching characters at least once per season. Sometimes I'm like "I want to do x, who's best for that?" but often times it's just "I'm bored with y, who do I want to be" or "Haven't tried z's refresh skills yet, let's see how it goes".

From my personal point of view, playing unmodded DST solo with mainly default settings while also restricting yourself to one character only is a challenge run. People are free to do and enjoy it, but the endgame content is challenging enough for me without extra difficulty added by ignoring a game feature.

[_zwb]

11 hours ago, EatenCheetos said:

is being heavily exploited and incorporated into the late-game meta.

What late game meta? Explain more please

[Bearger Enjoyer]

34 minutes ago, _zwb said:

What late game meta? Explain more please

It was revealed to them in a dream.

[Zeklo]

57 minutes ago, Prinha said:

That however is a problem of the skilltree in itself not the portal.

Mate, that was the entire point of my original post.

The Celestial Portal... we'll say... complicates certain ideas—which is fine so long as Klei develops new content with that in mind... which they aren't (e.g. skill trees).

1 hour ago, Prinha said:

Please give examples for specific dead skills.

This was also in my original post.

Wolfgang's Planar Skills. Literally 5 skills you will never pick early game, and will ultimately use the portal if they interest you—a choice between a loss of 8 is reduced to 3.

===

My entire argument is since the Celestial Portal exists Klei should keep that in mind with what they're adding.
The solution people jump to is remove portal, sure, but another is just fix the things that make portal feel bad. 

Extra reasons to play Warly & Winona! Skills that are useful at all points in the game!

Like... this is an issue that keeps coming up, and I reckon the best way to fix it isn't to take anything from either side, yeah?

2 hours ago, xhyom said:

It's silly how if you said that, which is something many actually say, no one would tell you to just don't use the dark sword, because that comparison makes no sense, only if you are being extremely literal.

The comparison is fine. In fact, this is exactly what I mean. Weapons are 'normalized' while the portal is seen as 'special.'

I can beat the whole game with a spear if I want, but I'm gonna use better options to be optimal. Simple.

[Szczuku]

Once per character is stupid and way too much of a nerf.

However the portal should have a client-side 20 day cooldown after being used

[cropo]

13 minutes ago, Zeklo said:

The comparison is fine. In fact, this is exactly what I mean. Weapons are 'normalized' while the portal is seen as 'special.'

I can beat the whole game with a spear if I want, but I'm gonna use better options to be optimal. Simple.

I don't know I kind of agree with the other person on this part. Like on the most basic level you're right, they are technically comparable and you can beat the game with a spear but like....eh is that really the same thing in practice?

 

A logical upgrade to weaponry vs becoming batman and spending hours of prep time making an entire host character-specific stations and things you don't really need isn't something I would consider similar at all. If you're literally willing to spend that much time swapping characters back and fourth to make the ultimate killing machine then I'd honestly say more power to you.  Nerfing that would just be punishing everyone else for a lack of self control on your part.