I Dislike the Skill Trees: It Makes the Game Easier

[Capybara007]

yes i love when my favourite streamer gets to play dst because of the terraria crossover but ends up never wanting to play it again and talking bs about it because its too difficult and uncompromising

this is real btw

lets make hunger locked at 0 for the first 10 days so you must outheal it finally a good challenge

[Ardyn]

9 minutes ago, Dextops said:

What are you even talking about. Adding artificial difficulty would make the game more of a drag I think the game is fine in its current state. I support the skill trees because they fixed problems with characters and are fun to mess around with. You’re also neglecting the fact I’ve critiqued skill trees because I am able to realize they have problems. Just cause something has problems doesn’t mean I can’t like it 

Sorry, I didn't take a closer look at your viewpoint on skill tree. Some uncompromising game content does need to be simplified, such as the infamous crabking, where fighting it is the most uninteresting repetition. Do you also mean that?

6 minutes ago, Capybara007 said:

yes i love when my favourite streamer gets to play dst because of the terraria crossover but ends up never wanting to play it again and talking bs about it because its too difficult and uncompromising

this is real btw

lets make hunger locked at 0 for the first 10 days so you must outheal it finally a good challenge

It is indeed important to make those who are not willing to play dst willing to play dst, but it is also important to make those who are already playing dst not feel that the game has lost its fun.

[Exoros]

If a game is easy you can just cut down on your benefits to make it harder, but if the game is hard then what are you supposed to do ... just suffer?!
All that just for some people that want to feel better for their self?
Sadness so clearly in view and it is not merely a trick of the light.

[Milordo]

It's incredible how a soft easy post just happened to be on the other side of the "team" to be meet with Shopcat, Sad and Haha spam reactions with memes to ridicule everyone who disagree with their view point of the world. What a fantastic forum you're becoming Don't Starve community.

[Dextops]

2 minutes ago, Milordo said:

It's incredible how a soft easy post just happened to be on the other side of the "team" to be meet with Shopcat, Sad and Haha spam reactions with memes to ridicule everyone who disagree with their view point of the world. What a fantastic forum you're becoming Don't Starve community.

What.

[webberer]

28 minutes ago, Dextops said:

I support the skill trees because they fixed problems with characters

No, simply fixing character’s’ problems is not gonna make it interesting nor healthy. I think Each character have their own power meanwhile you should also embrace their imperfections. You will need others to help you, That’s called cooperation and the difference between DS and DST

[Dextops]

2 minutes ago, webberer said:

No, simply fixing character’s’ problems is not gonna make it interesting nor healthy. I think Each character have their own power meanwhile you should also embrace their imperfections. That’s called cooperation and “together”.

What. Woodies forms being absolute garbage and worse than his human form most of time as well as struggling with moon storms was not fun nor interesting. 

[Ardyn]

3 minutes ago, webberer said:

No, simply fixing character’s’ problems is not gonna make it interesting nor healthy. I think Each character have their own power meanwhile you should also embrace their imperfections. You will need others to help you, That’s called cooperation and the difference between DS and DST

Although there are design issues with some characters' shortcomings (such as Woodie), overcoming most of the characters' shortcomings does have fun.

[Capybara007]

19 minutes ago, Milordo said:

It's incredible how a soft easy post just happened to be on the other side of the "team" to be meet with Shopcat, Sad and Haha spam reactions with memes to ridicule everyone who disagree with their view point of the world. What a fantastic forum you're becoming Don't Starve community.

what does this mean

[Baark0]

heres your bi-weekly skill trees make the game easier thread

[Mysterious box]

50 minutes ago, Capybara007 said:

yes i love when my favourite streamer gets to play dst because of the terraria crossover but ends up never wanting to play it again and talking bs about it because its too difficult and uncompromising

this is real btw

lets make hunger locked at 0 for the first 10 days so you must outheal it finally a good challenge

Streamers do this crap a lot in games regardless of the difficulty.

26 minutes ago, webberer said:

No, simply fixing character’s’ problems is not gonna make it interesting nor healthy. I think Each character have their own power meanwhile you should also embrace their imperfections. You will need others to help you, That’s called cooperation and the difference between DS and DST

 

22 minutes ago, Dextops said:

What. Woodies forms being absolute garbage and worse than his human form most of time as well as struggling with moon storms was not fun nor interesting. 

To a degree I feel like both these points are right that being said I still think it's kinda bs Woodie got a balance patch placed into a skill tree when his base wereforms are straight up bad. I'm not a fan of skill trees being used to fix character problems because the larger a character's problems because it feels like it's punishing you for not picking the balance patch skills.

Edit: Now that I think about it I wonder if part of the reason Wormwood's skill tree feels extra lackluster is he didn't have anything that needed fixing...

[Popian]

32 minutes ago, Milordo said:

It's incredible how a soft easy post just happened to be on the other side of the "team" to be meet with Shopcat, Sad and Haha spam reactions with memes to ridicule everyone who disagree with their view point of the world. What a fantastic forum you're becoming Don't Starve community.

I don't think there should be sides. Instead of scanning for keywords "good" or "bad" when reading such feedback one could ask:

• Is the reasoning sound?
• Is it supported with evidence?
• Does it resonate with my experiences?

[Ardyn]

6 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

Streamers do this crap a lot in games regardless of the difficulty.

 

To a degree I feel like both these points are right that being said I still think it's kinda bs Woodie got a balance patch placed into a skill tree when his base wereforms are straight up bad. I'm not a fan of skill trees being used to fix character problems because the larger a character's problems because it feels like it's punishing you for not picking the balance patch skills.

Edit: Now that I think about it I wonder if part of the reason Wormwood's skill tree feels extra lackluster is he didn't have anything that needed fixing...

Wormwood has things that need to be fixed, and its proud bramble husk and nightmare sword made from living logs are useless in the face of planar entity.

[Mysterious box]

Just now, Ardyn said:

Wormwood has things that need to be fixed, and its proud bramble husk and nightmare sword made from living logs are useless in the face of planar entity.

That's less need to be fixed and more it would be nice if it were buffed. For example the problem going into Woodie's tree was his entire wereform system was optional downgrades before his skill tree and for Wolfgang his was despite his entire character being revolved around damage dealing his ability to output big numbers fell off in a big way. Wormwood still functions at his peak in the early and endgames.

[Extimous]

I find it hilarious that die-hard oldheads who already mastered the game a long time ago complain about how to most minor and inconsequential bonuses make the game easier. "The game is too easy" thread number 1983471953876 was really not necessary.

[Mike23Ua]

18 minutes ago, Extimous said:

I find it hilarious that die-hard oldheads who already mastered the game a long time ago complain about how to most minor and inconsequential bonuses make the game easier. "The game is too easy" thread number 1983471953876 was really not necessary.

Huh that’s interesting.. but objectively false, I am by no means the most skilled DS/DST player in the world, however.. I enjoyed the challenges that were present within the game/games, it is in fact those challenges that quite literally made up the “Game” I was playing. I bought the game/games for that experience, I got that experience.. & I enjoyed the hell out of it every step of the way.

NOW Klei is trying to make the game appeal to a broader audience by lessening or even out right removing the challenges I enjoyed about the game.

I suppose you can say that they want to make the game more inviting in the early game so they can ramp up the difficulty in the later game.

But even this is flawed highly questionable development design.

If people didn’t like the game for what it originally was and needed it Overly Simplified- Then logic would imply that they’re equally not going to like it later when Klei rips the bicycles training wheels off and says Good Luck don’t crash!

Originally players had these training wheels ripped off very early into playing the game: So they knew almost immediately what kind of experience the rest of the game was going to offer throughout.

TL:DR- If you didn’t enjoy suffering in the first 20 or so days of learning to survive, your not going to enjoy learning to survive all over again when X EndGame Day 5000 Challenge pops up later.

What Klei is ACTUALLY Doing is falsely inviting these players into a game that was never designed to appeal to them.

Or WORSE: They’re butchering a game that was intended to appeal to a very specific group of players in favor of the franchise gaining more popularity.

[Capybara007]

2 hours ago, Mysterious box said:

Streamers do this crap a lot in games regardless of the difficulty.

Such as?

[Ardyn]

24 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Or WORSE: They’re butchering a game that was intended to appeal to a very specific group of players in favor of the franchise gaining more popularity.

"Is this how it ends?"

[Theukon-dos]

1 hour ago, CyberSkink said:

Video games are meant to be FUN for EVERYONE involved. 

This is going to sound incredibly petty, but I genuinely hate this argument. 

 

Games do not have to be fun for "everyone". They should be and are allowed to remain "niche". To only cater to a select audience instead of trying to appeal to everyone all at once. You don't like a game? Not it's problem. Go play something else. I don't care for puzzle games all that much. But you don't see me going into the Opus Magnum discord to say they should make the game a First-Person Shooter instead. Obvious hyperbole I'll admit. But I hope you get the point. You know what happens when you try to appeal to the largest market possible? You get a homogenous, bland product with all the edges smoothed off and all creativity being replaced by Algorithms and board meetings. So the MCU basically.

 

To late now though. DST's been losing it's niche aspects for years now and skill trees are just a symptom of that. And honestly, I'm not even opposed to making the game more main-stream. Klei needs to keep the lights on after all. I just wish that doing this didn't have to deviate so far from the game people fell in love with. 

[Ardyn]

3 minutes ago, Theukon-dos said:

To late now though. DST's been losing it's niche aspects for years now and skill trees are just a symptom of that. And honestly, I'm not even opposed to making the game more main-stream. Klei needs to keep the lights on after all. I just wish that doing this didn't have to deviate so far from the game people fell in love with. 

It's never too late, maybe there's still one last chance.

[Mysterious box]

29 minutes ago, Capybara007 said:

Such as?

Are you asking me to list streamers who get mad at games because they don't want to put in the time to get good at them? Prove rage quitting exists in streaming? Or list streamers who've rage quit? Either way it's all a thing that happens believe it or not they're people too and people tend to do that sometimes. (Or push through regardless of them not enjoying their time with a particular game to keep their viewers happy.)

10 minutes ago, Theukon-dos said:

Games do not have to be fun for "everyone". They should be and are allowed to remain "niche". To only cater to a select audience instead of trying to appeal to everyone all at once. You don't like a game? Not it's problem. Go play something else. I don't care for puzzle games all that much. But you don't see me going into the Opus Magnum discord to say they should make the game a First-Person Shooter instead. Obvious hyperbole I'll admit. But I hope you get the point. You know what happens when you try to appeal to the largest market possible? You get a homogenous, bland product with all the edges smoothed off and all creativity being replaced by Algorithms and board meetings. So the MCU basically.

Honestly so many games and series I used to like have gone this route with people pushing back against it usually get shutdown hard and drowned out...

[webberer]

10 minutes ago, Ardyn said:

It's never too late, maybe there's still one last chance.

I simply just hope klei would give Wormwood a re-rework, his current perks give me no reason to play as him.

And he will likely to be one of the weakest characters among all, as he is the first round re-rework characters. 

[lenship2]

imo dst needs a version of terraria's expert/master mode, with boss and enemy's ai/health scaling along with their drops to compensate

[RoughCactus69]

11 hours ago, Arcwell said:

This is +35%. Personally I have felt virtually no difference playing in worlds with this enabled as opposed to default worlds. You may feel differently, that's fair. We currently have no option for hunger/sanity drain as far as I'm aware.

This is a feature? Seriously? Is this a PC only thing? I have not seen this option on console.

My argument just falls apart then doesn't it! I still want a base difficulty slider, I do think it would make things easier.

Sincerely,

Cactus

4 hours ago, webberer said:

I simply just hope klei would give Wormwood a re-rework, his current perks give me no reason to play as him.

And he will likely to be one of the weakest characters among all, as he is the first round re-rework characters. 

Agreed. He is one of the weaker characters and his only real use is in a big group. Even then he's just bottom of the barrel. Without a Wortox synergy goes out the window.

Sincerely,

Cactus

3 hours ago, lenship2 said:

imo dst needs a version of terraria's expert/master mode, with boss and enemy's ai/health scaling along with their drops to compensate

I agree. If it removes fun for others they don't have to use it. I personally want the game to be harder for me.

Sincerely,

Cactus

4 hours ago, Theukon-dos said:

This is going to sound incredibly petty, but I genuinely hate this argument. 

 

Games do not have to be fun for "everyone". They should be and are allowed to remain "niche". To only cater to a select audience instead of trying to appeal to everyone all at once. You don't like a game? Not it's problem. Go play something else. I don't care for puzzle games all that much. But you don't see me going into the Opus Magnum discord to say they should make the game a First-Person Shooter instead. Obvious hyperbole I'll admit. But I hope you get the point. You know what happens when you try to appeal to the largest market possible? You get a homogenous, bland product with all the edges smoothed off and all creativity being replaced by Algorithms and board meetings. So the MCU basically.

 

To late now though. DST's been losing it's niche aspects for years now and skill trees are just a symptom of that. And honestly, I'm not even opposed to making the game more main-stream. Klei needs to keep the lights on after all. I just wish that doing this didn't have to deviate so far from the game people fell in love with. 

Thank you. As that person said, fun for everyone. Well I originally played the game for the challenge. It was fun for me. Is it so much to ask or wish for a difficulty slider so I can feel that difficult again that has slowly been fading update after update?

In my opinion it's not.

Sincerely,

Cactus

[-Variant]

11 hours ago, RoughCactus69 said:

I don't just want to increase or decrease the amount of something in a world. I want things to do 25% more damage. I want food to give 25% less health, sanity, and hunger. I want my sanity to drain quicker.

From a game design perspective this is absolutely not the way to go about it.

This alone doesn't make the game harder. Or hard. This is tedium.
[Also there's world settings for this, I guess.]

This just takes what's already there, and makes them take longer. Things doing more damage means nothing once you learn to dodge them.
Hunger draining faster means nothing when you learn to get food.
Things taking less damage means you're just spending more time to kill them.

This is why (pre-rework) Wes fails as a challenge character in my regards, for example! Wes doesn't do much to actually shake up the game other than some number tweaks.

Numbers are a huge part of design and development, but development should NEVER revolve around numbers.
There are a million and two ways extra challenge can be brought into the game, it's about being creative with what you've got.