I Dislike the Skill Trees: It Makes the Game Easier

[RoughCactus69]

9 hours ago, CyberSkink said:

You DO know that these skills are currently optional... Right? You can literally play the game without unlocking a single one. I personally REALLY LOVE these skill trees, ESPECIALLY WOODIE'S! Video games are meant to be FUN for EVERYONE involved. I understand that Don't Starve has roots in what you call "uncompromising gameplay", But even that wasn't that "uncompromising" once you knew what was going on and how to counter various situations. Most people DON'T want the skill trees to hinder the character. Besides, there are about a BAJILLION ways to make this game harder. If you need new content, might I suggest DST Uncompromising mode? Either way, I don't think this is the direction that Klei or the majority of the fanbase wants to go in.

Ugh. I personally hate the "You don't have to use it" argument. It ignores so many factors it's ridiculous. 

I play multiplayer mainly. So using these skills is almost necessary because otherwise you are putting your team at a disadvantage when you don't need be. I've also heard that argument when it comes to all the new Ocean Content. Sadly, you can't just ignore 20-30% of the game. That argument really does fall flat when you exit single player. 

You say majority, but I see constant fighting about these topics. Alot of Don't Starve veterans dislike the skill trees, alot of newer players like the skill trees. So I wouldn't say a "majority". Alot of people straight up don't like the new updates.

Also, I'm on Console. Although that's not your fault because I am sorta in the PC General Discussion. (It's just more active here)

Sincerely, Cactus

11 hours ago, Dextops said:

If you are good at the game those things would barely effect you and would just make things more tedious. I’d rather have this game be fun than be “uncompromising”

If that's my option to make, why would it matter? If I want the game to be more tedious for myself I should be able to do that. Adding a difficulty slider wouldn't affect the quality of game for anyone. It would just add a higher variety of difficulty for noobs and veterans to enjoy.

Sincerely, Cactus

11 hours ago, Mr. Tour said:

But then is not that the game was difficult in the first place, it just mean that it had a knowledge check, so the game is never gonna have this "unknown"  again regardless of any change they make (besides extra content, which considering you are on a forum, you will never experience those either)

 

And this doesn't even make sense with the changes you want, enemies dealing more damage or food spawning less is not gonna fix the "unknown" issue, it would make the game harder for new players coz veterans alredy know how to deal with all of it,  and the new players experiencing the "unknown" you once experienced are just gonna have a more anoying time

Hence why I'm asking for a difficulty slider. Adding one would not affect the game for the majority of the player base at all. You could have an easier mode for noobs and a harder mode for veterans. It would solve a lot of problems for a lot of people. If they think the game is too hard, turn it down! If they think it's too easy, then turn it up!

Also, I'm just stating that the game has indeed gotten easier. Because people don't believe it has. I wasn't specifically saying that my things would solve that problem. I personally think it would just be a nice QOL change.

Sincerely, Cactus

10 hours ago, Wonz said:

This is anti-fun fun kind of difficulty increase people call it artificial difficulty. I wish it were something like bosses using more special attacks or hounds coming in bigger numbers or spiders using warrior spider leap attack. 
How much more difficult those make game? Not at all, getting killed is less hits doesn't make someone who's good at dodging put any more effort into it if they did dodge a stronger attack. It just makes preparations for cheesy bosses like bee queen much longer. It's not harder, it takes more time so essentially it's more tedious, straight up bad and boring. 

Real difficulty change will unfortunately cost resources. 

If you want to see some true increased difficulty go play uncompromising mode mod if you haven't, they also reworked bee queen fight pretty good as well as many other bosses though I don't like how they force you to switch between cane and weapon, it's uncomfortable and won't let focus on having fun in the fight.

I agree honestly. I really just want a slider that changes a variety of different things related to difficulty. Alas, that would require resources like you said. A man can wish.

Sincerely, Cactus

[Mike23Ua]

The thing is- the ways You very specifically are wanting to change the difficulty are already mostly in the game-

You want enemies to deal more damage to you, there’s a setting for that.

You want less food to spawn in the world? There’s a setting for that.

You want to toggle Shadow Monsters to Tons so more of them spawn and they move a slight bit faster? There’s a setting for that too.

But all of this is mostly just Artificial stat based Difficulty.

I personally have FUN toggling Brightshades to spawn on Day One in a World (or whatever day they actually spawn on..) and fighting them with just a football helmet and a weak spear, these things if they hit you will almost guarantee your death… but they’re also easy to kite and avoid- really should’ve been an early game mob to be honest… 

That said, the things you want to make your game more difficult would just be annoying to me, because for me-

Difficulty isn’t based on small stat changes, you only need to play Solo DS and see how Adventures Mode, Shipwrecked & Hamlet shake up the difficulty by changing the ways we interact with and play the game, and a few simple stat switches aren’t going to provide that.

[RoughCactus69]

9 hours ago, Wonz said:

Also this thing. The game is really easy but it feels hard for so long because it it takes long to learn all what it contains, once you've experienced eveything you know best what to do. If this game was really hard it would be insanely hard to get into, you don't want people to quit because of that, it's already not uncommon, that's why many games have tutorials. 

True higher difficulty that even good players struggle with sometimes combined with tutorial should be very good for the game I believe.

Tutorial that should introduce newbies to not obvious things like how to survive summer when you just joined, how temperature works, why it's pointless to wear hat while you have cold/warm thermal stone etc.  HOW TO TAKE SINGLE ITEM INSTEAD OF WHOLE STACKS why is it not a thing already why must older players explain it to new players? It gets them kicked after they spent 10 days there gathering things. Getting kicked due to lack of basics must be very good feeling I guess, motivating to stay and keep servers populated as well as recommend the game to friends am I right or am I right?

Difficulty due to not knowing mechanics and possibilities is not difficulty like "oh this hard but I know why" but i believe it's called "learning curve" like "oh i didn't know this could happen" or "Oh there comes giant monster in winter after i hear breathing, maybe next time I'll run out of the base".  

If you meet the ice ring deerclops variant in uncompromising mode you'll see some combination of learning curve but also it's pretty fun fight in not so straightforward way as it is in normal DST.  

This is why (In many other comments) I've stated a difficulty slider would fit well.

"Adding one would not affect the game for the majority of the player base at all. You could have an easier mode for noobs and a harder mode for veterans. It would solve a lot of problems for a lot of people. If they think the game is too hard, turn it down! If they think it's too easy, then turn it up!"

(From another one of my posts)

Sincerely, Cactus 

8 hours ago, Capybara007 said:

yes i love when my favourite streamer gets to play dst because of the terraria crossover but ends up never wanting to play it again and talking bs about it because its too difficult and uncompromising

this is real btw

lets make hunger locked at 0 for the first 10 days so you must outheal it finally a good challenge

As I've said before. When Don't Starve Together first came out till now it is easier to survive.

I'll so say this. A game doesn't have to be for everyone. A game can have a niche audience, and that's EXACTLY what Don't Starve has and will soon lose. Terraria and Don't Starve are two very different games. Are you really surprised that your streamer friend didn't enjoy it? Not all games are for everyone after all.

I don't like Dark Souls very much because I find the difficulty annoying. That doesn't mean that the game deserves to be easier for others to play. Nor does it mean that streamers who stop playing the game for difficulty a just totally in the right that the game is too hard. IT'S HARD FOR A REASON.

What I've stated many times is the game needs a difficulty slider so then your streamer friend can make the game easier, and I can make it harder. It would solve a lot of problems.

Sincerely,

Cactus

8 hours ago, Ardyn said:

Sorry, I didn't take a closer look at your viewpoint on skill tree. Some uncompromising game content does need to be simplified, such as the infamous crabking, where fighting it is the most uninteresting repetition. Do you also mean that?

It is indeed important to make those who are not willing to play dst willing to play dst, but it is also important to make those who are already playing dst not feel that the game has lost its fun.

Thank you. I agree that it would be better all around for them to cater to both sides instead of one. 

Sincerely,

Cactus

8 hours ago, Exoros said:

If a game is easy you can just cut down on your benefits to make it harder, but if the game is hard then what are you supposed to do ... just suffer?!
All that just for some people that want to feel better for their self?
Sadness so clearly in view and it is not merely a trick of the light.

Uh. Ok Mr. Philosopher. 

 

What I've suggested 14 different times in this sub is a difficulty slider. If you want the game easier, turn it down. If you want it harder turn it up.

Sincerely,

Cactus

[_zwb]

It doesn't make this game easier, at least not for the newbies. New players aren't struggling because their character is too weak or whatever, it's because the game literally has no guidance AT ALL. If you play this game blind you'll get jumpscared every 5s, by Charlie, hounds, Deerclops, frog rain the list go on. Getting jumpscared and killed isn't that fun you know, and what's worse, getting killed still doesn't tell you what to do. Better spend 5h watching tutorials so you can actually have fun, you see how problematic this is?

Nothing in this game is really foreseeable and unfortunately the skill tree doesn't tell you anything about those threats either. That's why it doesn't make the game easier for newbies, as for veterans, the game is already very easy and the threats are merely annoying or tedious to be dealt with.

[Ardyn]

10 minutes ago, _zwb said:

It was doesn't make this game easier, at least not for the newbies. New players aren't struggling because their character is too weak or whatever, it's because the game literally has no guidance AT ALL. If you play this game blind you'll get jumpscared every 5s, by Charlie, hounds, Deerclops, frog rain the list go on. Getting jumpscared and killed isn't that fun you know, and what's worse, getting killed still doesn't tell you what to do. Better spend 5h watching tutorials so you can actually have fun, you see how problematic this is?

Nothing in this game is really foreseeable and unfortunately the skill tree doesn't tell you anything about those threats either. That's why it doesn't make the game easier for newbies, as for veterans, the game is already very easy and the threats are merely annoying or tedious to be dealt with.

In 2033, each character will have at least 10 times the damage increase, 3 times the movement speed, and an attack mode with AOE effect. At that time, novice players will no longer be troubled by survival challenges in the game, haha.

[_zwb]

3 minutes ago, Ardyn said:

In 2033, each character will have at least 10 times the damage increase, 3 times the movement speed, and an attack mode with AOE effect. At that time, novice players will no longer be troubled by survival challenges in the game, haha.

This would still happen:

*Wilson joined the game
*Wilson got killed by the darkness, he became a spooky ghost!
*Wilson left the game

[Evelo]

10 hours ago, LitulLola said:

I just don't understand why ppl complain about things that can be turned off, adjusted, not used or are unfinished. 

Because Klei is actively encouraging players to use a feature that one can ignore. There is a fundamental design philosophy (unless Klei actually states otherwise which I have asked for numerous times on this update) that I just straight up do not agree with is healthy for the game. That's why I am complaining about skill trees and especially the Celestial Portal (again just making it so skill trees can't be reset with the CP and are locked in on a per world basis would really be great I feel for the skill tree system. Because the CP exists our choices don't actually matter because we can change our minds at a later time.)

[Milordo]

11 hours ago, Popian said:

I don't think there should be sides. Instead of scanning for keywords "good" or "bad" when reading such feedback one could ask:

• Is the reasoning sound?
• Is it supported with evidence?
• Does it resonate with my experiences?

My man, we're on the same wavelenght. It's not me who I started this good or bad or sides or teams. I already cited a lot of people who came to solutions to appease everybody. Unfortunately even if you came with good intentions, it seems you can't reason here with that mentality. 

3 hours ago, -Variant said:

Numbers are a huge part of design and development, but development should NEVER revolve around numbers.
There are a million and two ways extra challenge can be brought into the game, it's about being creative with what you've got.

Like Warly. I challenge every good player when they try Warly for the first time. I died so many times the first days for hunger that I was full with laughs and happiness because I couldn't believe what was happening and thought I went back being a noob at the game. Always teached to my community Wes being a fake impostor challenge character and boring while Warly be the true hardest character in the game.   

[Cruvimaster]

The game has always been easy for TOGETHER players.  Which giant resists against 6 Wolfgangs?  Which world is hard with 1 Wicker + 1 Wolf + 1 Warly + 1 Wortox + 1 Winona + 1 Wormwood?  You can defeat any giant with gunpowder and that has always existed in the game.

And if you play alone and want difficulty, you don't need to activate skill trees, as it's optional.  Can choose Wes and increase damage taken from bosses.  And finally, don't use bees against the Crab King.

And congratulations to Klei, because this beta is amazing.

[Wonz]

6 minutes ago, Cruvimaster said:

The game has always been easy for TOGETHER players.  Which giant resists against 6 Wolfgangs?  Which world is hard with 1 Wicker + 1 Wolf + 1 Warly + 1 Wortox + 1 Winona + 1 Wormwood?  You can defeat any giant with gunpowder and that has always existed in the game.

And if you play alone and want difficulty, you don't need to activate skill trees, as it's optional.  Can choose Wes and increase damage taken from bosses.  And finally, don't use bees against the Crab King.

And congratulations to Klei, because this beta is amazing.

Would be cool if that there was some thing that makes boss sturdier the more players are around. Adding extra player to double damage is making fight artificialy easier so remedy can be making the boss aritficialy harder. But in exchange for both decreased then increased effort everyone could get their share of boss drops like everyone getting the bundling wrap blueprint.

[abrocator]

18 hours ago, Evelo said:

However as more and more updates come out it becomes apparent if you avoid all the things you don't like you haven't received an update in a long time. I detest the celestial portal and refuse to use it but it seems Klei is encouraging its use which is in direct conflict with my "I dont like it so I dont use it." How many more updates will come out that incentivize the use of something I don't like?

You don’t have to use the portal in order to experience these updates.

[Arcwell]

7 hours ago, RoughCactus69 said:

This is a feature? Seriously? Is this a PC only thing? I have not seen this option on console.

My argument just falls apart then doesn't it! I still want a base difficulty slider, I do think it would make things easier.

I didn't say there was anything wrong with your argument?

You said you wanted a way to take __% more damage and I listed a way that's already there, that's all.

I disagree with your opinion, sure, but it's your opinion and you're free to have it.

[CyberSkink]

10 hours ago, RoughCactus69 said:

Ugh. I personally hate the "You don't have to use it" argument. It ignores so many factors it's ridiculous. 

I play multiplayer mainly. So using these skills is almost necessary because otherwise you are putting your team at a disadvantage when you don't need be. I've also heard that argument when it comes to all the new Ocean Content. Sadly, you can't just ignore 20-30% of the game. That argument really does fall flat when you exit single player. 

You say majority, but I see constant fighting about these topics. Alot of Don't Starve veterans dislike the skill trees, alot of newer players like the skill trees. So I wouldn't say a "majority". Alot of people straight up don't like the new updates.

Also, I'm on Console. Although that's not your fault because I am sorta in the PC General Discussion. (It's just more active here)

Sincerely, Cactus

If that's my option to make, why would it matter? If I want the game to be more tedious for myself I should be able to do that. Adding a difficulty slider wouldn't affect the quality of game for anyone. It would just add a higher variety of difficulty for noobs and veterans to enjoy.

Sincerely, Cactus

Hence why I'm asking for a difficulty slider. Adding one would not affect the game for the majority of the player base at all. You could have an easier mode for noobs and a harder mode for veterans. It would solve a lot of problems for a lot of people. If they think the game is too hard, turn it down! If they think it's too easy, then turn it up!

Also, I'm just stating that the game has indeed gotten easier. Because people don't believe it has. I wasn't specifically saying that my things would solve that problem. I personally think it would just be a nice QOL change.

Sincerely, Cactus

I agree honestly. I really just want a slider that changes a variety of different things related to difficulty. Alas, that would require resources like you said. A man can wish.

Sincerely, Cactus

Okay, there are SEVERAL flaws with your argument that you are glossing over. 1. The “Don’t have to use it” argument applies to everyone, also how does it ignore factors?! IT’S YOUR GAMEPLAY! 2. There are PARTS of these updates that even I didn’t like, but you don’t see me throwing a hissy fit over them. 3. You litterally contradicted yourself and with the first argument. Do you want a harder difficulty or not, make up your mind. 4. Look at the roadmap, THEY LITERALLY SAID THAT THE DIFFICULTY ISN'T INTENDED TO CHANGE. Furthermore, even if it does, it’s not your game, IT’S KLEI’S. 5. There is already a difficulty option in the game in the form of world settings.

[Mike23Ua]

2 minutes ago, CyberSkink said:

There is already a difficulty option in the game in the form of world settings.

Technically… Yes I suppose your right, but also No, because it’s no where near as world altering as it should be.

Here let me provide some examples: Klei adds Above Average Tree Canopy, everyone (or well most everyone..) LOVES them. But this Canopy is a permanent solution to the games extremely limited problems.

Difficulties could have effected this: On Endless Mode the Canopy is Permanent, on Survival Mode- The Canopy should Degrade over time requiring Palm Leaf (a resource from chopping Palm Trees in Shipwrecked DLC that could also be added to DST from chopping PalmCone trees) and Figgy Tree Jam (a Resource exclusive to DST found in the Water Logged Biome) So Jam + Leafs = Large Canopy Repairs.

It gives me a reason to go out and explore the world to upkeep my survival structures, yet at the same exact time- players who play endless mode (or toggle them to not require upkeep costs) can play the game their way without ruining the way I want to play.

Theres a thread currently ongoing where players are asking for Support Pillars not to Degrade over-time, and to ask for that is fine… but, the players should be given OPTIONS as to how fast these degrade or if they can degrade at all.

Without needing to make a bunch of PC mods Klei’s world Gen settings COULD provide this- In the same way you can set regrowth stages of trees to fastest, fast, normal, slow or Never.

And instead of Nerfing the Holy high hell out of content players may find too punishing, such as the original implementations for Wavey Jones, Boat wrecking mechanics, Pirate Monkey Raids & how Wonkeys Curse is handled..

The player would’ve instead had the OPTION for the Less difficult (current), or more punishing (original) variations of these gameplay mechanics.

But in its current status: World Settings aren’t living up to the potential they COULD Be.