DST Feels Like an Early Access Game

[Jestymun]

When I started playing DST it felt like a rough around the edges but largely cohesive game with a healthy enough dose of content updates to keep things fresh. I could expect updates to give me new things to do, new places to explore, and new resources to use, and it would all fit together well enough. As I became more familiar with the game, I began to develope a sense of irritation with klei. This was largely targeted towards balance decisions that to me seemed unnecessarily cowardly and unfun. This irritaion grew with my love for the game. I'd often stay up with my friend having passionate dialouges about absurdly understatted items, or mechanics that exist just to limit you when they really didn't have to. We'd stay up and have these great complaining sessions for hours, often staying up until 2am just talking about it. I started following the updates and betas with anticipation, either groaning at how bad they were or exitiedly singing praise. It was fun either way. 

At some point, my anticipation was replaced with apprehension. The updates no longer feel quite as... inconsequential? The game has changed greatly over time sure, but lately the changes have been far more fundamental. The stakes are so much higher now. It's not about how good or bad a new item or area or balance tweak is anymore, it's about full game mechanics and design. Klei is making large sweeping changes and additions to a very old and well established game like it's still in it's experimental stages. Now instead of being excited for new content I worry about how the game I love will be different and if it will be worse. It would be different if I trusted Klei to make good decisions for the game but frankly I don't. 

I feel as though the game has already changed significantly enough to cause a large portion of the older audience to leave specifically because of changes to the game. Different people leave at different times depending on their tolerance and what specific things they care about. I really don't want to end up feeling like I'm clinging to a distorted version of the game I used to love because it looks vaugely similar. Being a DST player right now feels to me like riding a bull and every update might be a buck that tries to send me flying. When I look around at the other players that have already left, that feeling is reinforced.

At a certain point I wonder just how much do they want to change this game, and at what point should they just make a new one instead of breaking this one to meet their new vision? 

I guess I should write a true thesis statement for this topic so I can get across exactly what I'm trying to express. Lately it feels like the entire game is subject to change. I cannot rely on it being broadly the same. This is not an early access game, yet it feels incredibly unstable. This has not been an issue for me until relatively recently.

[Kemthazul]

That's the nature of live service games (yes, DST is a live service game). They change fundamentally over time.

 

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At a certain point I wonder just how much do they want to change this game, and at what point should they just make a new one instead of breaking this one to meet their new vision? 

Honestly, this is like DST 3 at this point. one could compare it with how divorced the mechanics are from the original DS. As of now, they are completely different beasts.

[BezKa]

I always thought, that even though developers changed, they knew what they were doing and respected the game they were expanding on. Now they're either very misguided, or actually want to destroy the foundations on which they were building. Because they're not only breaking the original mechanics and gameplay, but also things they added themselves. I'm really confused what is the goal/motivation here.

[l0rdgumby]

In what was stated from the roadmap, "[They] understand that we’re stepping into some weird territory here" and their goal is "to make the game more interesting in the ways that those who love Don’t Starve and Don’t Starve Together will enjoy while also providing people who don’t know the game more opportunities to understand what the game expects of them." It's very apparent that Don't Starve and Don't Starve Together are getting even more divorced from each other as time goes on from all of the new changes. Whenever I see people make comparisons to the original games, it feels a bit wrong. The goals and motivations for this project are not the same. It's still a survival game and uncompromising to the extent of how this world wants to kill you and they won't help you with a tutorial. However, we've seen questlines, massive overhauls, and more not present for the first in the series. Don't Starve is essentially a complete game. Klei seems to be embracing new concepts and experimenting since this is not Don't Starve anymore. This is an unfinished, live service game where they're not bound to the designs of the base game. 

 

[n.apollyon]

3 minutes ago, l0rdgumby said:

this is not Don't Starve anymore

Yeah this is DS ToGetHer. Either we get her affection or animosity. I hope the stage setpiece gets more important roles in the future, at least for Charlie since she seems to enjoy the performances and struggles of the survivors. 

[BezKa]

18 minutes ago, l0rdgumby said:

It's very apparent that Don't Starve and Don't Starve Together are getting even more divorced from each other

And we shouldn't just be okay with that.

[n.apollyon]

Its fine to deviate. Don't Starve is an era where Maxwell ruled the constant and its already a complete game with its set of DLCs. Spicing up DST to be more co-op oriented and have story driven mechanics since the narrative can continuously evolve due to the game's nature as a live service.

By co-op oriented I don't mean just continue making difficult raid bosses. There should be more items like the lazy deserter where it requires multiple players to work. It isn't an essential item but it gives an incentive by saving you time from traveling if you chose to play the game as it was designed for, together. 

I hope it gets more special limited events in the future though like the Gorge and Forge. I think that would be likely once those portals in game become activated, I just hope they'll have a smooth lore transition to those events. 

[n.apollyon]

I feel like the exact moment when DST felt completely different to DS(for me) was when Dreadstone armors self-regeneration came into play. And now the repairable end game gears as if they were clothing with a sewing kit. It just feels wrong, as an old player of the franchise, to see an armor or tool be repaired.

Its not armor thats same level like bone armor or vortex cloak which justifies refuelability although those two arent really armors. Eye mask and shield of terror are collab specials so I dont count them and their repairability as Dont starve items.

[GenomeSquirrel]

5 hours ago, Jestymun said:

I feel as though the game has already changed significantly enough to cause a large portion of the older audience to leave specifically because of changes to the game.

As older player myself, keep giving me change after change after change, I'm getting bored.

[Karmattack]

As others have mentioned, this is simply the nature of online games.

If it didn't change enough the forums would be full of the opposite sentiment.

[Waynel]

7 hours ago, Jestymun said:

at what point should they just make a new one instead of breaking this one to meet their new vision?

Interesting point.

[Karmattack]

23 minutes ago, Waynel said:

Interesting point.

The big bugfix update for the single player game is probably the last major update it will be getting, and NewHome has failed to materialize.

I don't think splitting things further would be very productive.

[Cheggf]

7 hours ago, Kemthazul said:

That's the nature of live service games (yes, DST is a live service game). They change fundamentally over time.

1 hour ago, Karmattack said:

As others have mentioned, this is simply the nature of online games.

Not true. There are plenty of multiplayer "live-service" games that just add content instead of butchering old content. That's even a complaint I've seen many times for this one: they just keep adding partially implemented content then never finishing it. Every release feels like the first beta for that new content, then they just drop it and go to the nextrelease. If they would just finish the content that they keep partially implementing, that would keep them set for years at their current pace of updating. 

1 hour ago, Karmattack said:

If it didn't change enough the forums would be full of the opposite sentiment.

Can you show me someone asking for skill trees before Wilson's rework? Like literally just 1 person. I've seen tons of people ask for the ocean & caves to get more content, a lot of people wanted some more stuff for the seasons, but never seen anyone asking for the game to become an RPG. 

[Karmattack]

2 minutes ago, Cheggf said:

Not true. There are plenty of multiplayer "live-service" games that just add content instead of butchering old content. That's even a complaint I've seen many times for this one: they just keep adding partially implemented content then never finishing it. Every release feels like the first beta for that new content, then they just drop it and go to the nextrelease. If they would just finish the content that they keep partially implementing, that would keep them set for years at their current pace of updating. 

Can you show me someone asking for skill trees before Wilson's rework? Like literally just 1 person. I've seen tons of people ask for the ocean & caves to get more content, a lot of people wanted some more stuff for the seasons, but never seen anyone asking for the game to become an RPG. 

He's a(n amateur) scientist, something his gameplay didn't reflect in the slightest.

The skill tree represents making discoveries, I quite like it.

"Become an RPG" is such a needlessly dramatic claim.

 

[Cheggf]

Just now, Karmattack said:

He's a(n amateur) scientist, something his gameplay didn't reflect in the slightest.

The skill tree represents making discoveries, I quite like it.

"Become an RPG" is such a needlessly dramatic claim.

 

So you can't show me one single person asking for skill trees or RPG mechanics. Ok.

[Karmattack]

1 minute ago, Cheggf said:

So you can't show me one single person asking for skill trees or RPG mechanics. Ok.

I don't need to, because that wasn't what my post was claiming originally and you know it.

If the game stagnated people would complain that nothing changes.

6 minutes ago, Cheggf said:

So you can't show me one single person asking for skill trees or RPG mechanics. Ok.

Also if you really want me to split hairs, as of this reply there is a topic asking for more skill trees on the front page of General.

You were asking as a strawman but maybe you should check before you do that.

[Duck986]

2 minutes ago, Karmattack said:

If the game stagnated people would complain that nothing changes.

It's often better to get to some point and stop, rather than going further and trying to improve what already works fine. I wouldn't be complaining if the game stopped on Wilson's rework, because it was in a tolerable condition for me. But now I do because I bought this game for her survival elements and not RPG mechanics like it's Witcher.

[Karmattack]

Just now, Duck986 said:

It's often better to get to some point and stop, rather than going further and trying to improve what already works fine. I wouldn't be complaining if the game stopped on Wilson's rework, because it was in a tolerable condition for me. But now I do because I bought this game for her survival elements and not RPG mechanics like it's Witcher.

I'm fairly sure only Wilson is even getting a skill tree, because as I said it represents the process of discovery which is part of his character.

Despite the egg person's claims I've seen plenty of people on the forums asking for skill trees, but unless Klei has expressed this being the norm I don't think this is something that will keep happening.

It's not "RPG Mechanics", it's one character's quirk.

[Duck986]

2 minutes ago, Karmattack said:

I'm fairly sure only Wilson is even getting a skill tree, because as I said it represents the process of discovery which is part of his character.

Despite the egg person's claims I've seen plenty of people on the forums asking for skill trees, but unless Klei has expressed this being the norm I don't think this is something that will keep happening.

It's not "RPG Mechanics", it's one character's quirk.

It would've been one character's quirk if they didn't continue with skill trees. If you don't know, beta adds them for Wormwood, Woodie and Wolfgang, so there are all the odds they will add them to other characters as well. And that's what I hate - I hate the game moving towards newbies that can survive the first autumn at most. This is not the game I liked anymore. It's now a frankenstein consisting of new "quirky" and "popular" things, while old stuff still remains the same like it was in 2014-2016.

[Karmattack]

Just now, Duck986 said:

It would've been one character's quirk if they didn't continue with skill trees. If you don't know, beta adds them for Wormwood, Woodie and Wolfgang, so there are all the odds they will add them to other characters as well. And that's what I hate - I hate the game moving towards newbies that can survive the first autumn at most. This is not the game I liked anymore. It's now a frankenstein consisting of new "quirky" and "popular" things, while old stuff still remains the same like it was in 2014-2016.

I genuinely wasn't aware of that, I apologize.

I feel like they should be kept to Wilson as his personal quirk, for sure.

[Mike23Ua]

I’m going to hi-Jack this thread for a few moments to say that this is the last post you guys are going to be seeing from me for awhile.. *Forum widespread rejoicing commences*

I’m just tired & fed up with being here day after day trying to fight to hopefully restore the franchise I loved for being the franchise it started out as.. and feeling like no matter what I say or express my opinions are going to get shoved aside & dismissed because people “like” whatever the hell kind of game DST is trying to become.

I loved DST (I still love DST..) but I loved it with hopes that it would “eventually” provide me with the same kind of challenges and gameplay I loved DS for. Unfortunately with each passing update it seems the game wants to become more and more beginner friendly- i SHOULD'VE bailed the moment cooking recipe cards were added.. it could only go downhill from there- But I held onto that hope that maybe Klei does listen and maybe they’ll add some new early and late game challenges to restore my faith in them.

Today.. I feel like DS & DST are two vastly different games meant to cater towards to vastly different demographics of players- DST to me feels like a “Spin-Off” that barely shares similarities with the game that it spawned off from, and that’s sad because it seems like Klei is forgetting that DST was originally just supposed to be Dont Starve but with Multiplayer.

Im just so very very tired of fighting to get back the things I actually enjoyed about the game/franchise, that I know when it’s time to hang up my cape and cowl & stop fighting crime.

I’ll still frequent the forums in silence- maybe pop in and comment every other game update or so… but other than that, I just want to take the time to say Good-Bye to all you lovely people, and to Mr JoeW who has been incredibly generous to me and my occasional slightly off-topic posts that probably drive the poor guy mad having to sort through.

Cheers!

[GelatinousCube]

2 hours ago, Karmattack said:

NewHome has failed to materialize.

Thank goodness for that

2 hours ago, Duck986 said:

If you don't know, beta adds them for Wormwood, Woodie and Wolfgang

Have I missed a new beta??? Shieeeeeet better check out that subforum

[firoborn]

4 hours ago, Cheggf said:

So you can't show me one single person asking for skill trees or RPG mechanics. Ok.

have you seen the mod Achievements and Level System on steam? it is pretty popular and some users have even commented on wanting it added to the game just because they dont visit the forums and post here doesnt mean that players that want skill trees or RPG mechanics added to the games dont exist and this mod is much older than the wilson rework. Tho i wont comment on if it should be added or not i dont have an opinion on that.

[Cheggf]

4 hours ago, Duck986 said:

It's often better to get to some point and stop, rather than going further and trying to improve what already works fine. I wouldn't be complaining if the game stopped on Wilson's rework, because it was in a tolerable condition for me. But now I do because I bought this game for her survival elements and not RPG mechanics like it's Witcher.

And there's so much they could have done instead. After 5 years of most of the updates being exclusively for characters and doing nothing unless you're playing as that character, they finally finished, they finally finished and said they wanted to be done with the character reworks. Then they immediately went back to the characters again. They immediately went back and decided to give the controversial Wilson rework skill tree to every single character. For the next 2 years the majority of the updates will be exclusively focused on making characters worse, instead of actually adding things that everyone can utilize. They're not making it so that the caves are more than just a line of biomes you ignore on the way to the ruins. They're not finishing the ocean content they keep half-implementing. They're not making the seasons more engaging or interesting. They're not adding more bosses or fun side mechanics like farming, sailing, and ocean fishing. They're just shoving uninspired, unimaginative, bland, boring skill trees on all the characters when they don't even know why skill trees are in games or how to make a good one. 

[Duck986]

2 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

I’m just tired & fed up with being here day after day trying to fight to hopefully restore the franchise I loved for being the franchise it started out as.. and feeling like no matter what I say or express my opinions are going to get shoved aside & dismissed because people “like” whatever the hell kind of game DST is trying to become.

It's not only about your opinions, it's about all unpopular opinions. The sad thing is, forums are just a minority - even if we all agree on something, we're still just the small part of the entire community, most users just play the game with their friends on Steam. I said what I wanted to say here and beta branch subforum, and I'm happy to see I'm not the only one. But sadly if DST continues this way - I'll have to move on as well. I may check other skill trees for giggles, but that's about it.

2 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

Im just so very very tired of fighting to get back the things I actually enjoyed about the game/franchise, that I know when it’s time to hang up my cape and cowl & stop fighting crime.

I’ll still frequent the forums in silence- maybe pop in and comment every other game update or so… but other than that, I just want to take the time to say Good-Bye to all you lovely people, and to Mr JoeW who has been incredibly generous to me and my occasional slightly off-topic posts that probably drive the poor guy mad having to sort through.

Y'know, I'm one of those persons who are ready to give second, third, fifth, tenth chance, and that always hope for the best. But after seeing how major part of the forums agrees on a thing that Klei ignores, and disagrees on a thing that Klei decides to add... I don't even know anymore.

I don't want to overdramatize, so if you, the reader, like to play the current DST - I'm very happy you want to be the part of the community, I really am.