Skill Trees Are The Wrong Way To Go, I Think.

[goatt]

Don't get me wrong, I liked the new skill trees a lot when they first came out. This thread of discussion made me realize the skill trees are just character reworks. After having a serious thinking about it, I concluded skill trees are the wrong way to go.

But the new mechanics can still stay, just not in the form of skill trees. I will demonstrate one way to do it at end.

 

First, let me admit that skills trees are fun to play with. But what made me change my mind?

 

Several reasons for me:

1. Skill trees are basically character rework again. As a veteran, I got in the game, c_skip(200), then started to look into skill trees immediately. Why would I wasted 20ish hours playing the same game just to get new skills? So that's what I did. I would imagine new players will also look at the skill trees as part of the character specific perks, not as endgame alignment upgrades.

Skill trees are not gate kept by final bosses, but by hours of gameplay...That's honestly not endgame arc stuff, because you get them as soon as you join a new game, even for new players who only have hundreds of hours of playtime and cannot beat final bosses.

 

2. Skill tree points carry over across servers. That means they are not game progression, instead, they seem to be a learning progression. As you play a character for longer, your character becomes stronger. It's similar to those mobile game with fake progression where "become better" is just adding a new skill, or increase skill damage or crit rate, etc.

As @-Variant said in this post: "Something I had LOVED was feeling like I needed to OUTSMART my foes, not out strength them."

Traditional DS/DST gives me a different vibe. A skilled player is skilled because of their techniques and knowledge about the game, not because leveling up from playing more hours.

If skill trees are designed to encourage players to progress in game, it should encourage players to discover hidden mechanics and secret knowledge about the game, but should not associate more hours and better perks. This can be done by introduce setpieces that showcase some of the mechanics while being dark or hilarious, instead of skill trees.

If the goal is to encourage players to simply play longer, is it really necessary to invent skill trees when the time can be spent on the story arc? I think a better alternative is to add a skin set for new players, like when you complete 100, 200, 300 hours mark, you get apprentice body, glove, and pants, which you can wear to show you graduated from DST college.

 

3. In DS/T history, similar content were introduced in the form of character specific items, stats modification, natural aggro, etc. Skill trees were never needed. And I think it's true this time. So now I will demo one way to remove skill trees and retain the new mechanics with a little twist to my taste. (But you should get a general idea how it can be done).

 

How to replace skill trees with a new endgame alignment mechanic / blueprint / unlockables.

1. Alignment

Spoiler

1. Choose a side.

After defeating cc and forging brightsmithy, you can craft a new item: lunar apprenticeship

you sign the book/contract to make an alliance with the lunar side.

Same step with the shadow side.

 

2. Change sides

You can change sides by crafting a new contract on the opposite side. It will summon a mini-boss from your old side because your old alliance is angry.

 

2. Woodie skill tree replacement

Spoiler

- lunar side contract: power up the moon curse

- can craft lunar versions of Kitschy Idols, using moon gleams instead of monster meat in the recipes.

- eating lunar idols doesn't hurt sanity or hp. can exit were-forms with a non-empty stomach.

- They have the moose, goose, and beaver upgrades described in the woodie skill tree.

- lunar apprenticeship protect Woodie from random transformation on full moons.

- shadow side contract: power up Lucy

- Shadow Lucy is imbued with shadow power. Having Lucy in inventory protect Woodie from random transformation on full moons.

- Shadow Lucy can reap crops like reapers but with a smaller range

- Shadow Lucy can be used to craft boards at a reduced cost

- Shadow Lucy can be used to craft Treeguard Idols.

- Shadow Lucy deals 32.5 normal damage and 10 planar damage, the same as brightshade smasher.

- When Shadow Lucy is in inventory, attack enemies have a chance to summon Lucy to circle around Woodie, hurting all the enemies in melee range, and dealing Lucy's weapon damage. Chance is 100% at night or in cave, 60% at dusk, and 20% during the day. It doesn't hurt walls. Only 1 flying Lucy can exist around a Woodie. (Shadow Lucy is not scared of the moon power, but dislikes coming out in sunlight)

- Shadow Lucy attacks can be also triggered when were-forms attack or are attacked. This will bring were-moose's damage close to the lunar were-moose.

(I decide to ignore the wood hat and wood stick as endgame content)

 

3. Wormwood skill tree replacement

Spoiler

- friendlier animals contract:

- bugs are neutral to wormwood, including butterflies, bees, mosquitoes, and fruit flies

- this contract unlocks the crafting of lunar essence. recipe: moon moth + 30 hp sacrifice.

- use lunar essence on a stack of carrots can spawn up to 6 carrats. Or up to 4 light bugs, or up to 1 salamander.

- use lunar essence on wormwood self to induce faster blossom and regen 1 hp per second for 30 seconds.

- friendlier plants contract:

- can use mushroom planters more efficiently

- can farm crops more efficiently

- the contract unlocks the crafting of lunar jam (fertilizer). recipe: bucket-of-poo + moon moth (sorry, moon moth)

- the contract unlocks the crafting of mushroom trees. recipe: lunar jam + living log + shroom of choice, including moon shrooms. 

- lunar jam has 10 uses, and can be applied to grass tufts, saplings, berry bushes, and lureplants.

- plants fertilized by lunar jam attract deadly brightshades. Killing those brightshades drop additional plants of the same kind of the original plant, with a 25% chance of dropping a second plant and a 5% chance of dropping a third one.

- can apply jam on wormwood self to induce faster blossom and regen 2 hp per second for 5 seconds.

- eating moon shroom during blossom ejects a sleeping cloud.

- eating red mushroom during blossom eject a poisonous cloud that poisons enemies and give them diarrhea. 3 damage per second for 30 seconds. this won't actively provoke aggro

(Wormwood doesn't have a shadow side. In order to change the contract, he only needs to use another lunar contract without fighting mini-bosses, but will lose the current blossom and lose half max hp because he loses all the current lunar power).

 

4. Wolfgang skill tree replacement

Spoiler

Wolfgang's skill tree is a good example of what I consider fake progression. Mightiness +10+20+30+40, planar damage +5+10+15+20, extra damage +10%+20%+30%. This is just not the old DS/T. That's my opinion.

Shadow side: Wolfgang gets bonus power at night or in cave. bonus power is reduced at dusk, and lost during the day.

- power 1: bonus planar damage up to 20 dmg

- power 2: bonus one-shot chance in using tools up to an extra 15% chance

- power 3: bonus mightiness using gym and dumbbells up to an extra 50

- power 4: extra dumbbell throw damage up to extra 100%

- power 5: 5% speed boost when mightiness is above 100.

- using shadow gears guarantees some shadow power despite the time of the day. 1 gear guarantees a 40% minimum shadow bonus, 2 gears a 70% minimum bonus, and 3 gears 100%.

- deal 25% extra damage to lunar mobs

Lunar side: Wolfgang gets bonus power based on the moon phase. Bonus power is completely lost during the new moon.

- the same 5 powers, but based on the moon phase.

- using brightshade gears guarantees some lunar power despite the moon phase. 1 gear guarantees a 40% minimum lunar bonus, 2 gears a 70% minimum bonus, and 3 gears 100%.

- deal 25% extra damage to shadow mobs.

(I'm ignoring coaching and whistle...)

 

Conclusion:

I think the current skill tree based on playing hours is just wrong. It's basically character reworks, and introduces raw number changes rather than mechanics that interact with existing content in a more meaningful way. Skill trees conveniently provides fake progression instead of engaging players in traditional DS/T way. Moreover, the same mechanics can be implemented in different forms just as traditional DS/T did.

I admit skill trees are fun. But fun has many forms. Old DST was fun too. And I feel the game is moving away from old DST fun and become more similar to other games (mobile games?) and start to lose some of its distinctive traditions. While there is nothing wrong with it, I just wish it won't happen.

[Masked Koopa]

I think this sort of approach is probably a moot point. I do not think Klei is going to give up on character trees because a minority of players are viscerally upset about them. I understand you may feel strongly about them, but doesn't tend to go beyond doing numerical tweaks when it comes to making changes based on community feedback. If they did, I don't think we'd have half of Wilson's skill tree consisting of torch perks.

[Ardyn]

33 minutes ago, goatt said:

It's basically character reworks,

Perhaps even worse. The form of character rework is often accepted by most people, but the skill tree has been questioned and resisted. People often do not oppose the content of skill trees, but rather the form of skill trees, which is not a design of DS - I also hope that skill trees do not represent the design of DST. We all know that there are many personnel changes in the development team, but can we stabilize the ideas of game designers? Many times, we see a design that is forgotten halfway through production, like an empty ocean and the so-called "end of character rework". Finally, I don't think skill trees can help new players stay, and it's even better to add more mysterious and random stats to the static_ layouts in map have a significant impact. What attracts players to move forward should be the content of the game itself, rather than a perfunctory skill tree - what is the difference between the design of a skill tree and a regular online game?

[maradyne]

Quote

Why would I wasted 20ish hours playing the same game just to get new skills?

To boost playtime numbers in an attempt to prevent the studio from getting aggressively reorganized the moment New Home starts monetizing successfully. Short of that, not much.

Clock's ticking btw, Klei.

[Mike23Ua]

I was personally hoping we would’ve been “Done” with character reworks by now… I mean don’t get me wrong I love adding more to a characters playstyle to further make them unique..

However- we have these characters getting new powers and abilities while the REST of the game remains exactly the same as it’s always been.

It breaks my heart to get more powerful characters, but not changes to the constant and it’s TEN YEAR OLD OUTDATED DESIGN to accommodate for all those fancy new perks & powers.

[lionking102]

2 hours ago, goatt said:

Traditional DS/DST gives me a different vibe. A skilled player is skilled because of their techniques and knowledge about the game, not because leveling up from playing more hours.

I have to say I'm on a totally different side. First of all: Nothing changes about that statement with skilltrees. How is a player becoming "skilled" from having access to a skilltree? The skilltree gets some advantages, but it doesn't make a player "skilled" automatically.

Also: I think is is a bad thing to gate all the new stuff to endgame, so only a very little percentage of players have access to it. It is OK, that some stuff is only for endgame, but Klei also needs to give something to players that don't do the 1000th CC speedrun. DST is very harsh to new players and I think it's fine that they get some help after some hours played. Most people I got into DST quick long before getting the skilltree, because the game is so hard. Also the skilltrees are nice and fun and they have some really good QOL. But the skilltree doesn't help you at all as a new player, because you don't know most of the stuff they give anyways. It will not magically make you survive in DST, and for a experienced player survival was already a joke 10 years ago. So where is the problem? I think it is fine that players that aren't that talented and don't like killing bosses all day have a place in this game and community. They still need to learn a lot of basic survival stuff, skilltrees change nothing here.

Also there will still be an insane difference between a new player and an experienced player. If you can't deal with endgame without skilltrees you also won't be able to with them.

DST has evolved and I think it shouldn't be a game where only the elite players can have fun and get all the stuff from updates. This new arc also was never meant to be and "endgame arc", Klei stated they would also work on stuff for new players and the core game. 
Also it is the 10000th time that people say "DST is moving away from it's roots, old DST was so much better, this isn't DST anymore", where in reality most players would not play the game anymore without all those updates and old DST was so much less polished and also had a thousand problems.

Don't get me wrong: I also don't like every update (for example I didn't really like the last two). But I think it is not fair that every update people complain how bad it is and that the game is getting worse and everyone means to know what's the best for the game. While I'm just happy that Klei still puts so much love and effort into this game that we all love, after all that years and I think they listen a lot to the community, while of course they also need to do what they think. There will never be an update that everyone likes, that's just how it is. And we can say and discuss this, but please not in that "DST is becoming a mobile game" way.

[goatt]

50 minutes ago, lionking102 said:

I have to say I'm on a totally different side. First of all: Nothing changes about that statement with skilltrees. How is a player becoming "skilled" from having access to a skilltree? The skilltree gets some advantages, but it doesn't make a player "skilled" automatically.

That's true.

But my main point is not that. I think I didn't express it very well, I'm not very articulate.

The distinction I want to make is that DST is different from RPG where you level up, get better stats (hp, mana, atk, etc), and better and more skills. Those skills usually come with spending more time in game, but not from becoming better at the game.

Traditional DST didn't have that kind of leveling system. You were better at the game simply because you were better at the game, not because you played longer.

The main point there was to compare those two type of the game.

But i agree skill trees don't hide players' actual skills.

4 hours ago, Masked Koopa said:

I do not think Klei is going to give up on character trees because a minority of players are viscerally upset about them

On a second thought, I feel skill trees are ok, as long as they are gate kept behind final bosses and are not carried across servers, because they are supposed to belong to the story arc, not as a innate perk.

[Fufuji]

5 hours ago, Masked Koopa said:

I do not think Klei is going to give up on character trees because a minority of players are viscerally upset about them.

25% negative is fairly a considerable rate though. Another convey shows that 76 out of 123 players think Insight points shouldn't carry over from world to world. 

[Gerrent95]

I liked the character refreshes, they brought life back into the characters for me. But they're done, and they should stay that way. At most they could use small tweaks, that we've seen be done on the side for major content updates. I'd like more content to explore. We have an unused portal in the ancient archives, a sea that feels mostly empty, and now wagstaff, and charlie at war. Like, yeah, the skill trees are fun, but I think it would be neat to have the characters get their alignments for this war in unique ways, rather than just copy wilson's refresh.

If we are going this way though, I like that wormwood is exclusively moon aligned, and I think maxwell should be shadow exclusive. And I'd like bosses to not be the only thing that gates stuff, but more stuff specific to the character. Maybe fighting krampus for wortox, or trying new foods for warly.

[Masked Koopa]

6 hours ago, Fufuji said:

25% negative is fairly a considerable rate though. Another convey shows that 76 out of 123 players think Insight points shouldn't carry over from world to world. 

I think people who spend time in forums generally have a much stronger opinion on what the game should be like than the general playerbase. And a lot of that 25% have been complaining ever since the start of character reworks, yet have stuck around until now.

I also think that insight not carrying over is very different to not having a skill tree at all. I mean hell, I personally would prefer it if insight set character specific goals related to the insight. Like chop 2 trees to unlock Woodie's new crafts. Plant 10 flowers to gain access to the flower petal perk as wormwood. Punch 3 butterflies for the butterfly one. That sort of thing.

I think Klei is much more likely to be receptive to "change the unlock requirements and/or buff/nerf these skills" than they are to "I do not like skill trees please remove them.", even if it's as an attempt to turn them into items/other mechanics like the OP.

[Fufuji]

5 minutes ago, Masked Koopa said:

I think Klei is much more likely to be receptive to "change the unlock requirements and/or buff/nerf these skills" 

This will work too, and maybe even better than just deleting the skill trees. No matter how the approach will look like, it balances well then it's a nice update.

[Jakepeng99]

3 hours ago, Masked Koopa said:

I think people who spend time in forums generally have a much stronger opinion on what the game should be like than the general playerbase. And a lot of that 25% have been complaining ever since the start of character reworks, yet have stuck around until now.

I also think that insight not carrying over is very different to not having a skill tree at all. I mean hell, I personally would prefer it if insight set character specific goals related to the insight. Like chop 2 trees to unlock Woodie's new crafts. Plant 10 flowers to gain access to the flower petal perk as wormwood. Punch 3 butterflies for the butterfly one. That sort of thing.

I think Klei is much more likely to be receptive to "change the unlock requirements and/or buff/nerf these skills" than they are to "I do not like skill trees please remove them.", even if it's as an attempt to turn them into items/other mechanics like the OP.

Achievments and goals were removed because they made the players no longer want to play after they done them all.

[Masked Koopa]

10 minutes ago, Jakepeng99 said:

Achievments and goals were removed because they made the players no longer want to play after they done them all.

I think if a player gets to the point where they have killed FW and Celestial champion they have probably explored most of the game's content. That issue was from DS which did not have long questlines or a tonne of content and bosses at the time.

[Deerclops Mika]

I have a feeling that players do not perceive skill trees as developers.
For me, the skill tree is just an added complication to character selection. Now, before starting the game, you must choose which additional abilities the character will have, which partially changes the style of the game. Therefore, developers give a maximum of 15 points, which does not allow you to select absolutely all skills, but only a certain part of them. You can choose whether your Woody can fly in the form of a goose or be able to strike with his tail in the form of a beaver.

Perhaps this also allows you not to overpopulate the character with abilities. He has some basic perks initially, which gives the player a little to explore the character and as he plays for him, the player has the opportunity to customize his abilities

[Cheggf]

23 hours ago, Masked Koopa said:

a minority of players are viscerally upset about them

Everyone smart enough to see why the skill trees are bad are smart enough to know that discussing it on the forums won't achieve anything except getting reaction farming sycophants to say that the game is evolving and you need to keep up with the times, old man.

[Masked Koopa]

2 minutes ago, Cheggf said:

Everyone smart enough to see why the skill trees are bad are smart enough to know that discussing it on the forums won't achieve anything except getting reaction farming sycophants to say that the game is evolving and you need to keep up with the times, old man.

My opinion: smart, genuine.
Your opinion: dumb, just for reactions.


It's possible to disagree on things you know. My point was simply that this form of feedback isn't condusive to anything, because it requires overwhelming community support. A pretty big chunk of the folks complaining about the skill trees evidently also have a problem with the majority of the character reworks, which have also been well-received, so I just don't think that support is there.

[Cheggf]

7 minutes ago, Masked Koopa said:

My opinion: smart, genuine.
Your opinion: dumb, just for reactions.

Proving me right.

[goatt]

14 minutes ago, Cheggf said:

Everyone smart enough to see why the skill trees are bad are smart enough to know that discussing it on the forums won't achieve anything except getting reaction farming sycophants to say that the game is evolving and you need to keep up with the times, old man.

I hate to say this, but I generally dislike generalizing other people based on anecdotal without the support of data.

For me, I read many threads, thinking about the stuff in bed in the dark without looking at my phone for an hour about the issue, came to the conclusion that I felt I needed to post, with the worry that it might not even get approval from community and it would just be a waste of my time and emotions.

I want it to change, but I know the world is not revolved around anyone. But my action has intrinsic values which may or may not cause any real effects. That's why I made this post despite my uncertainty and anxiety. 

[Masked Koopa]

7 minutes ago, Cheggf said:

Proving me right.

Just because you said it in more words doesn't mean it isn't what you said.

[Cheggf]

Just now, Masked Koopa said:

Just because you said it in more words doesn't mean it isn't what you said.

It's not what I said at all. I said that saying you don't like it won't change anything, all it'll do is cause people to make comments trying to dunk you for disliking what Klei did. You then proceeded to disingenuously misconstrue that statement turning "Disagreeing will just make people farm reactions" into "Everyone who doesn't agree with me is just farming reactions", because you are trying to dunk me to farm reactions.

[goatt]

14 minutes ago, Masked Koopa said:

My point was simply that this form of feedback isn't condusive to anything

Let's say maybe your seemingly unimportant feedback can inspire many support or put the idea in people's head to marinade. Some feedbacks regarding woodie had no effect at the time, but is implemented in this update.

I think this form of feedback is the beginning of something. I don't wanna stop doing it just because it may make me look like a failure or unpopular, or it may be inconsequential. I do it because I think it has values.

[Dextops]

39 minutes ago, Cheggf said:

Everyone smart enough to see why the skill trees are bad are smart enough to know that discussing it on the forums won't achieve anything except getting reaction farming sycophants to say that the game is evolving and you need to keep up with the times, old man.

Genuinely the worst way you can make an argument. Not only is it manipulative but also it doesn’t prove anything. Just makes Klei look at the opposition in a bad light. You are hindering your argument and everyone else’s who might actually be genuine by doing things like this.

[Masked Koopa]

4 minutes ago, Cheggf said:

It's not what I said at all. I said that saying you don't like it won't change anything, all it'll do is cause people to make comments trying to dunk you for disliking what Klei did. You then proceeded to disingenuously misconstrue that statement turning "Disagreeing will just make people farm reactions" into "Everyone who doesn't agree with me is just farming reactions", because you are trying to dunk me to farm reactions.

Chegg if someone is reaction farming, you're implying they're being disingenuous because their primary goal is to obtain reactions rather than give their legitimate opinion. If that's not what you intended to say, you should phrase it differently. I'm not trying to dunk you to farm reactions, I'm pointing out that the way you phrased your argument can be boiled down to those two sets of lists. Referring to your own opinion as smart, saying those who disagree with you have the primary goal of farming reactions i.e being popular.
 

5 minutes ago, goatt said:

Let's say maybe your seemingly unimportant feedback can inspire many support or put the idea in people's head to marinade. Some feedbacks regarding woodie had no effect at the time, but is implemented in this update.

I think this form of feedback is the beginning of something. I don't wanna stop doing it just because it may make me look like a failure or unpopular, or it may be inconsequential. I do it because I think it has values.

While I do think that is fair enough, I think that Klei ultimately also has their own vision for the game that they are unlikely to compromise to the degree of outright removing a mechanic. The only example of them doing so I can think of would be disease, and I don't think skilltrees are going to be as universally hated and unpopular as disease unless Klei royally screws something up. I'm not even saying that you should stop because it'll make you look like a failure or unpopular or whatever, I just think that generally it is better to approach a situation from the direction that is most likely to make a change you are happy with. It's not like skill trees are what I would do in Klei's situation either, I just don't think they're going to have their minds changed on it at this point, that's all. If you want to continue despite that I don't want to stop you, in fact I'd be happy if you succeed in getting them to take a more in-game approach.

[lowercase skye]

1 hour ago, Cheggf said:

reaction farming sycophants

I'm trying my very best to find a way to say this that doesn't come across rude... Just, I want to make it as clear as possible that this isn't a type of person who exists. This isn't an attitude that anyone has.

[Mysterious box]

4 minutes ago, sylvia wander o said:

Just, I want to make it as clear as possible that this isn't a type of person who exists.

I mean no offense but there are a crapload of people online who do that whether people do it here or not is a different story.