Klei, this could be your last chance

[Vinja]

To change the new sword. 85 base damage. That puts it in line with the +17 damage curve of Spear (34), Tentacle Spike (51), and Dark sword (68).

To get this weapon you have to not only unlock the celestial champion which is a massive task in itself, but also overcome and defeat him. 85 damage will help the sword reach some really interesting damage points on certain regular mobs which would give a real feel of strength and progression while also not trivializing the earlier and mid game content. You also use the “Pure Brilliance” resource to craft this which is a new rare late/post game only resource, and you can use the “Pure Horror” counterpart to create a new upgraded version of the dark magic gear such as the dark sword. A new post game tier of weapons would be very fun to play with and work towards.
 

I think this is a good compromise for those that want to retain the challenge and integrity of the game while also satisfying those that think the awesome new sword is pretty underwhelming and would like to see a buff.

I realize this is very last minute and maybe not possible to implement at this point without delaying the release of the update which could very well be planned for tomorrow but can we at least *try* this in the beta before the chance to try it out is gone?

At this point I’m going to trust whatever your judgement is, but I really think this idea should be entertained at least while the content is in beta, as that’s exactly what the beta is for. Either way, thank you. This is one of my favorite games of all time and has been an incredibly unique and fun way for my girlfriend, sister, and I to bond and we’re looking forward to see what you’ve got in store for the future!

[Dextops]

If Klei doesn’t do this i will be sad been asking for this since the beginning

[Antynomity]

Yes, PLEASE, this would make this sword REALLY COOL, I'm sick and tired of dark sword sidegrades, we already have a lunar dark sword sidegrade, we don't need two of them.
Oh, and they could add a shadow equivalent for whatever future shadow dreadstone weapon we get as well without it feeling like dark sword 1.5.

(just realised that was already mentioned in the original post lmao, still, please)

[WolfoIsBestWolf]

Or even just something like 76.5 (34 * 2.25, the game does it with multiples of 34). Anything really to cross another threshold. Even if there's other fun stuff it could get like Sanity on hit or it glowing in the dark or smth.

[Electroely]

25 minutes ago, WolfoIsBestWolf said:

Or even just something like 76.5 (34 * 2.25, the game does it with multiples of 34). Anything really to cross another threshold. Even if there's other fun stuff it could get like Sanity on hit or it glowing in the dark or smth.

If you're wearing the corresponding armor set, the sword receives a +8.8 damage boost against all targets, which puts it at 76.8. It gets another +10% against Shadow-aligned creatures, putting it at 84.48. I like it. Terrorbeaks normally take 6 hits to kill with a dark sword or glass cutter, but with the armor and extra bonus it gets reduced to 5. Crawling horrors die to 4 hits instead of 5, hounds die in 2 hits instead of 3, werepigs die in 7 instead of 8, clockworks die in 12 hits instead of 14 (with damaged clockworks specifically dying in 11 hits due to being shadow aligned), the list goes on... the bad thing is its incompatibility with natural damage-boost characters like Wolfgang and Wigfrid, but I haven't found myself hurting for extra damage on those characters.

[Maxil20]

54 minutes ago, Electroely said:

If you're wearing the corresponding armor set, the sword receives a +8.8 damage boost against all targets, which puts it at 76.8. It gets another +10% against Shadow-aligned creatures, putting it at 84.48.

I think my main issue with this is while the bonus is neat, you are required to use all 3 items simultaneously to receive the boost. This puts a significant handicap on what you can use for keeping the bonus (no BQ crown, bone armor, magi, enlightened crown, etc.), all for a fairly minute boost overall. For comparison, almost any character with Warly’s pepper spice and a dark sword will hit 81.6 damage, enough to hit almost all of the breakpoints described.

If they want to make brightshade armor the “glass cannon” set, I do see it having unique potential. I just feel like you should be getting considerably more power then what we currently get ATM. If one armor piece gave 10% extra damage and +5 planar but 2 pieces gave you 25% and +10 planar, I could see it being a lot more tempting for conventional use. It would only be slightly lower then using an enlightened crown + sword (and with the above change would still technically work with this), while being significantly easier to “upkeep”.

Overall, I do like the concept of the armor “empowering” the sword, I just feel it’s not as good as I feel it could be atm.

[Vinja]

1 hour ago, Electroely said:

If you're wearing the corresponding armor set, the sword receives a +8.8 damage boost against all targets, which puts it at 76.8. It gets another +10% against Shadow-aligned creatures, putting it at 84.48. I like it. Terrorbeaks normally take 6 hits to kill with a dark sword or glass cutter, but with the armor and extra bonus it gets reduced to 5. Crawling horrors die to 4 hits instead of 5, hounds die in 2 hits instead of 3, werepigs die in 7 instead of 8, clockworks die in 12 hits instead of 14 (with damaged clockworks specifically dying in 11 hits due to being shadow aligned), the list goes on... the bad thing is its incompatibility with natural damage-boost characters like Wolfgang and Wigfrid, but I haven't found myself hurting for extra damage on those characters.

To me, wearing all 3 pieces of the set just to save a hit or two for a small handful of enemies is just not worth it in most cases and really isn’t enough to justify its place as a post CC sword. Could be more interesting if the sword alone hit some of those breakpoints, or just sword + helmet I suppose. 
 

Also it must feel pretty bad for wigfrid/wolf mains that as a trade off for dealing with the weaknesses of their characters that part of their characters perks is damage scaling and with the planar damage mechanic they are in a way punished for having that perk. I can definitely see how that would be slightly disappointing to some, and I think that disappointment is entirely valid as well.

[Yuuko]

20 minutes ago, Vinja said:

Also it must feel pretty bad for wigfrid/wolf mains that as a trade off for dealing with the weaknesses of their characters that part of their characters perks is damage scaling and with the planar damage mechanic they are in a way punished for having that perk. I can definitely see how that would be slightly disappointing to some, and I think that disappointment is entirely valid as well.

Yeah, I think Klei just doesn't like Wolfgang.  They take away his speed buff on his rework b/c "character balance" and then give Wicker unlimited full moons and control over rain, then raise the stakes by giving all of her books to Maxwell who has the best resource gathering summons, and top it off with this total nerf to damage boosted characters?

Strong man be sad man now :\

[Dragonboooorn]

3 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

Yeah, I think Klei just doesn't like Wolfgang.  They take away his speed buff on his rework b/c "character balance" and then give Wicker unlimited full moons and control over rain, then raise the stakes by giving all of her books to Maxwell who has the best resource gathering summons, and top it off with this total nerf to damage boosted characters?

Strong man be sad man now :\

Remember that there is Wanda out there, a character who deals more damage than Wolfgang while also have other unique and powerful perks. 

[PetulantPansy]

Not a bad idea but doing so could hurt game balance.

1. This content can be unlocked through world settings on day 1. Brightshades are a tough mob to fight, but obtaining a high damage item with materials that literally come to you seems a bit too easy.

2. The reward for fighting cc is the cc crown. If you are able to defeat cc, i dont think you *need* another high damage weapon.

[-Variant]

25 minutes ago, PetulantPansy said:

Not a bad idea but doing so could hurt game balance.

1. This content can be unlocked through world settings on day 1. Brightshades are a tough mob to fight, but obtaining a high damage item with materials that literally come to you seems a bit too easy.

2. The reward for fighting cc is the cc crown. If you are able to defeat cc, i dont think you *need* another high damage weapon.

1: Klei has never balanced around world settings before in the past, I don't think it's fair to assume they will for this specific scenario. This is also entirely unfair thinking when considering the entirety of the update and its goals.

 

2: This is such a bumming way to view things... What's with the limits? Why not get a stronger weapon?

I can survive with like 4 berry bushes and two bee hive boxes alone, if I can do that do I not deserve to be able to play around with stronger/different alternatives such as crock pot foods?
I'm struggling to understand the appeal behind not wanting stronger weapons, especially so late in the game. That argument works just as easily backwards as it does forward.

[Mike23Ua]

20 minutes ago, PetulantPansy said:

Not a bad idea but doing so could hurt game balance.

1. This content can be unlocked through world settings on day 1. Brightshades are a tough mob to fight, but obtaining a high damage item with materials that literally come to you seems a bit too easy.

2. The reward for fighting cc is the cc crown. If you are able to defeat cc, i dont think you *need* another high damage weapon.

This I agree with, balance has to be taken into account for EVERYONE, not just the people playing on Default Settings. Klei made it so that Pearl is Nocturnal in Lights Out Worlds, changed some mob A.I. behaviors on different settings, so If they allow these rifts to be a world Gen option same as any other season or event, then they need to be balanced with the thought players might use it.

Why do we need a toggle to play it if it’s by default tied to fighting CK, doing Pearls stuff & fighting CC? Because- many people (myself included..) may not have a lot of time to play on their gaming Console, and since all that stuff takes a LONGGGG time to do having a toggle for instant access to it is Great. It allows people like myself to enjoy New world Content, without that content being locked behind fighting a boss, doing a 5 hour fetch quest, or surviving for 3500 days.

Its Instant Access to new gameplay content, without all the build up to get to it. And the game still needs to be balanced with the thought of that in mind.

Its not like it’s going to HURT anything, I mean I can (at anytime I feel the desire in doing so..) exit my game world, change a few settings, and if I built a base in a meteor biome I can toggle those Meteors Off to build my pretty base, then when I get tired of my pretty base I can turn those meteors back on just to see how fast that base gets wrecked by them.

And Portal Rifts (even though tied to fight CC champion for some dumb unbeknownst to myself reason on default settings) now falls into that category, same as any season, boss, mob, or other challenge that may oppose you. That HAS to be taken into consideration rather than just saying “oh you need to beat this end game boss to trigger this stuff on default settings.. so here have some OP gear”

[Juny Pear]

31 minutes ago, PetulantPansy said:

Not a bad idea but doing so could hurt game balance.

1. This content can be unlocked through world settings on day 1. Brightshades are a tough mob to fight, but obtaining a high damage item with materials that literally come to you seems a bit too easy.

2. The reward for fighting cc is the cc crown. If you are able to defeat cc, i dont think you *need* another high damage weapon.

Not to be a drag, but this logic could be applied to anything that is tied to a world setting in any way and is not a very good angle from which to view potential balancing issues. 
It's kinda like saying that because you can turn off wildfires in the settings there'd be no reason to have any countermeasures in the game for it other than ice staves.
And in the very rare cases that settings are taken into consideration for design, the way klei has gone about it is that things that are directly relevant for progression can still be done, even if the settings were to make it impossible otherwise (i.e. the crabby hermit coming out of her house during lights out). Saying that they should not adjust content many find to be problematic just because a setting exists that technically changes things to a degree does not mean that the default game experience you will see on most servers needs to be worse off for everyone.

[-Variant]

4 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

This I agree with, balance has to be taken into account for EVERYONE, not just the people playing on Default Settings. Klei made it so that Pearl is Nocturnal in Lights Out Worlds, changed some mob A.I. behaviors on different settings, so If they allow these rifts to be a world Gen option same as any other season or event, then they need to be balanced with the thought players might use it.

This is a very different scenario. The things brought up here aren't balancing for the sake of players changing settings, it's making the content actually outright functional under those scenarios. 

Pearl not ever coming out during Lights Out would not be considered a functional feature. Regardless of settings the accessibility needs to be in place. The balance of said things is almost never taken into account for.

 

6 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

That HAS to be taken into consideration rather than just saying “oh you need to beat this end game boss to trigger this stuff on default settings.. so here have some OP gear”

Why can't it be?

You beat X challenge for Y good loot.
It's not easy to balance the game around the absurd amount of configurations and customizability. Even as you said yourself, you can turn off any threats at any moment, from bosses to basic enemies.
I think it's fair if it works the other way around, if you choose to enable the rifts early you're choosing to opt into late game features super early on, as you would choose to say, opt out of Meteors.

[Vinja]

8 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

This I agree with, balance has to be taken into account for EVERYONE, not just the people playing on Default Settings.

Gotta balance hunger around it not being lethal then, and survivors taking less damage, no tree guards, no seasonal bosses, no winter or summer, No nighttime, extra resources

 

that argument is so ridiculous tbh I don’t know why people even try it. Default settings are what the game has always been balanced around as it’s the intended way to play the game.

[Mike23Ua]

2 minutes ago, -Variant said:

This is a very different scenario. The things brought up here aren't balancing for the sake of players changing settings, it's making the content actually outright functional under those scenarios. 

Pearl not ever coming out during Lights Out would not be considered a functional feature. Regardless of settings the accessibility needs to be in place. The balance of said things is almost never taken into account for.

 

Why can't it be?

You beat X challenge for Y good loot.
It's not easy to balance the game around the absurd amount of configurations and customizability. Even as you said yourself, you can turn off any threats at any moment, from bosses to basic enemies.
I think it's fair if it works the other way around, if you choose to enable the rifts early you're choosing to opt into late game features super early on, as you would choose to say, opt out of Meteors.

Because.. and maybe this is EXCLUSIVELY an Xbox issue- but there is no such thing AT ALL as Klei Official/Or Klei Dedicated Servers on Xbox, EVERY Server available on Xbox is Player Hosted.. this means that Every Single World you join.. is like playing with a “Surprise Box” of What Features are actually Toggled On/Off/More/Less of.

This is Every Single Server- There’s no guarantee you’ll get into a game with Default Settings because almost EVERYONE alters those settings. I once spent 5 hours playing in a random world I joined into only to 5 hours later when I actually wanted to go insane and create some Nightmare fuel related stuff- Discover that said host had Sanity monsters toggled off the entire time.

And with each New Feature Klei adds to these world settings, the “Xbox Experince” only gets that much worse..

Im actually going to take this time NOW to BEG Klei to add a Way to view what all features a worlds Host has toggled On/Off/More/Less of in the Options Menu or Something (same as how you can view the names of players on the server)

Otherwise: Every Single Server you join on the Xbox Platform (not sure about PlayStation or Switch…) Is Player Hosted and Adheres to whatever settings the worlds HOST has applied.

[Dextops]

20 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

This I agree with, balance has to be taken into account for EVERYONE, not just the people playing on Default Settings

No, for all that is holy, should not. I don’t even know why something like this needs to be explained but doing this would add extra work and limit the game further for no reason with an imaginary person in mind that you’re balancing around

[PetulantPansy]

20 minutes ago, -Variant said:

1: Klei has never balanced around world settings before in the past, I don't think it's fair to assume they will for this specific scenario. This is also entirely unfair thinking when considering the entirety of the update and its goals.

 

2: This is such a bumming way to view things... What's with the limits? Why not get a stronger weapon?

I can survive with like 4 berry bushes and two bee hive boxes alone, if I can do that do I not deserve to be able to play around with stronger/different alternatives such as crock pot foods?
I'm struggling to understand the appeal behind not wanting stronger weapons, especially so late in the game. That argument works just as easily backwards as it does forward.

1. That's fair, but it's still worth considering. Defeat a brightshade on day 10 and you have the strongest weapon in the game already (assuming you have access to the crafting station, but you get the point. That's way too easy! Part of the goal of this update is to make the game more challenging. Not easier!!!

2. But this sets the wrong precedent. Are we supposed to expect a 200 base damage weapon as long as we get more content/arcs? This is part of the crux of the OP's argument. He says that this isn't late game because its base damage is too low. If we set this expectation for stronger and stronger base damage weapons, it sets us on the wrong path in my opinion. People make "hold f to win" jokes now but wait and see where this gets us.

[Juny Pear]

3 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Im actually going to take this time NOW to BEG Klei to add a Way to view what all features a worlds Host has toggled On/Off/More/Less of in the Options Menu or Something (same as how you can view the names of players on the server)

I have never played the xbox version, so I'm not entirely sure if this is a pc only thing or something, but... 

that already exists.

[PetulantPansy]

13 minutes ago, Nettalie said:

Not to be a drag, but this logic could be applied to anything that is tied to a world setting in any way and is not a very good angle from which to view potential balancing issues. 
It's kinda like saying that because you can turn off wildfires in the settings there'd be no reason to have any countermeasures in the game for it other than ice staves.
And in the very rare cases that settings are taken into consideration for design, the way klei has gone about it is that things that are directly relevant for progression can still be done, even if the settings were to make it impossible otherwise (i.e. the crabby hermit coming out of her house during lights out). Saying that they should not adjust content many find to be problematic just because a setting exists that technically changes things to a degree does not mean that the default game experience you will see on most servers needs to be worse off for everyone.

Again I agree, but lots of players never are able to get far enough to beat cc and the only way they'll be able to try out this new content is to toggle world settings.

Also, if Im a player who sees this cool update, I'm naturally inclined to want to try it out. It's only natural to toggle it on for the experience.

[Mike23Ua]

Just now, Nettalie said:

I have never played the xbox version, so I'm not entirely sure if this is a pc only thing or something, but... 

that already exists.

Oh I know, but that’s only before you join the world, I want this info to be viewable after you’ve joined. Thanks for sharing this though! <3

[-Variant]

9 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Im actually going to take this time NOW to BEG Klei to add a Way to view what all features a worlds Host has toggled On/Off/More/Less of in the Options Menu or Something (same as how you can view the names of players on the server)

Check for this option, here. It shows you what is and isn't disabled in each of the player hosted worlds.

[Vinja]

9 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Because.. and maybe this is EXCLUSIVELY an Xbox issue- but there is no such thing AT ALL as Klei Official/Or Klei Dedicated Servers on Xbox, EVERY Server available on Xbox is Player Hosted.. this means that Every Single World you join.. is like playing with a “Surprise Box” of What Features are actually Toggled On/Off/More/Less of.

This is Every Single Server- There’s no guarantee you’ll get into a game with Default Settings because almost EVERYONE alters those settings. I once spent 5 hours playing in a random world I joined into only to 5 hours later when I actually wanted to go insane and create some Nightmare fuel related stuff- Discover that said host had Sanity monsters toggled off the entire time.

And with each New Feature Klei adds to these world settings, the “Xbox Experince” only gets that much worse..

Im actually going to take this time NOW to BEG Klei to add a Way to view what all features a worlds Host has toggled On/Off/More/Less of in the Options Menu or Something (same as how you can view the names of players on the server)

Otherwise: Every Single Server you join on the Xbox Platform (not sure about PlayStation or Switch…) Is Player Hosted and Adheres to whatever settings the worlds HOST has applied.

That’s definitely a legit issue and I hope they can get some officials up for you guys. I think the game is challenging enough to balance without trying to balance with all sorts of player settings taken into account though. That really sucks tho man I didn’t know Xbox has no officials, as a PlayStation main myself I know how many issues consoles face already; don’t need any more of them lol. 

[Maxil20]

13 minutes ago, PetulantPansy said:

1. That's fair, but it's still worth considering. Defeat a brightshade on day 10 and you have the strongest weapon in the game already (assuming you have access to the crafting station, but you get the point. That's way too easy! Part of the goal of this update is to make the game more challenging. Not easier!!!

You can have the “strongest” weapon in the game by day 10 in default settings by heading to the lunar island (which you need to do 9 times out of 10 for the new content anyway to craft the brightsmith) and have glass cutters. Content that should be long after CC should be stronger then conventional gear you can already get if you know what you are looking for.

15 minutes ago, PetulantPansy said:

2. But this sets the wrong precedent. Are we supposed to expect a 200 base damage weapon as long as we get more content/arcs? This is part of the crux of the OP's argument. He says that this isn't late game because its base damage is too low. If we set this expectation for stronger and stronger base damage weapons, it sets us on the wrong path in my opinion. People make "hold f to win" jokes now but wait and see where this gets us.

In a scenario where we are asking for a weapon with 17 extra base that you will likely get long into a running world compared to a weapon you can get by day 10-15 in the form of the dark sword/glass cutter, I do not see this as insane. Even more still, because that weapon will deal planar damage (likely in the form of 34 planar and 51 normal damage) and that doesn’t scale, it actually scales worse with damage modifiers. Wolf with any extra damage multiplier with a cutter/dark sword will outperform the sword, and the gap only widens the higher the damage gets.

10 minutes ago, PetulantPansy said:

Again I agree, but lots of players never are able to get far enough to beat cc and the only way they'll be able to try out this new content is to toggle world settings.

This is 100% the players own decision for doing this. Players who enable content that is specifically designed for lategame are accepting the fact said content is meant for Lategame, and should not be surprised if once they get past the difficulty spike have much stronger gear then they normally would. 

8 minutes ago, PetulantPansy said:

Also, if Im a player who sees this cool update, I'm naturally inclined to want to try it out. It's only natural to toggle it on for the experience.

I understand what you mean, but I feel like that is more of a “one off” type of scenario. You most likely are going to experience the cool content for a bit and then resume your older world and try to kill CC to access said content the “intended” way.

 

[Zeklo]

While I know some don't like 'balancing' things based on the unknown, this is the first update in the 'Arc'.

If this is the pinnacle of weapons & gear Klei intends to add to this section of the game, then sure why not. But if this is just a stepping stone into a new system and more gear to come... then I think this would over tune things going forward.

Since only Klei knows what's coming, I'll put my faith in their decision making—at least until I have a better view of the big picture.