Klei, this could be your last chance

[Masked Koopa]

48 minutes ago, Vinja said:

I would like a variety of weapons to all be good and usable but it’s just not the way klei has directed the game. There are no functional differences between the spear, battle spear, tentacle spike, hambat, dark sword, and thulecite club, and the new brightshade sword. There are slight mechanical differences, dark sword drains sanity, club gives you slight speed boost and a chance for the tentacles to spawn, hambat is on A spoil timer etc. The big difference  between one weapon and the next is the amount of damage it does which leads to all combat being fairly samey.

I think in regards to this it'd be nice if Klei revisited things like seedshells, blowdarts, boomerangs and whips, or added some additional progression to them.

[BB Marioni]

2 hours ago, Vinja said:

I mean older items definitely wouldn’t be useless, killing CC is no walk in the park and you have to use something in all those tens of hours hours between starting a world and battling CC. Not to mention the fact that the new gear is fairly expensive, we’re certainly not gonna be seeing the end of the hambat or dark sword anytime soon. 
 

Also with pretty much every weapon being the exact same item with various damage numbers the ability to have a variety of gear sets is extremely limited. I absolutely agree with you on this point though, I would like a variety of weapons to all be good and usable but it’s just not the way klei has directed the game. There are no functional differences between the spear, battle spear, tentacle spike, hambat, dark sword, and thulecite club, and the new brightshade sword. There are slight mechanical differences, dark sword drains sanity, club gives you slight speed boost and a chance for the tentacles to spawn, hambat is on A spoil timer etc. The big difference  between one weapon and the next is the amount of damage it does which leads to all combat being fairly samey.

Anyway, I agree and would love to see more variety as well which is why I praise the new staff so much, it’s cool and unique and interesting and we definitely would love to see more of that.

youre comparing using the other items during the early game. What I mean is AFTER you beat CC, then there would be almost no reason to use other ittems once you unlock "the highest defense and damage gears"
They also don't sem expensive enough if that's what you think balances it out. I would rather farm brightshade than pigskins given the current mechanics. Sure, it's not cheap enough to use against every mob. But you will definitely use it against very boss, and might as well just use a spear against regular mobs. So things like dark swords, glass cutters, thulecite clubs, etc wont be picked anymore when it comes to efficiency (unless people prefer them just for aesthetics). The brightshade sword will be dubbed "THE BEST WEAPON" in the game at that point, which is something I would hate to see. I'd rather it had the same level as a dark sword and thulecite club, but has different perks. 

[Antynomity]

5 minutes ago, BB Marioni said:

youre comparing using the other items during the early game. What I mean is AFTER you beat CC, then there would be almost no reason to use other ittems once you unlock "the highest defense and damage gears"
They also don't sem expensive enough if that's what you think balances it out. I would rather farm brightshade than pigskins given the current mechanics. Sure, it's not cheap enough to use against every mob. But you will definitely use it against very boss, and might as well just use a spear against regular mobs. So things like dark swords, glass cutters, thulecite clubs, etc wont be picked anymore when it comes to efficiency (unless people prefer them just for aesthetics). The brightshade sword will be dubbed "THE BEST WEAPON" in the game at that point, which is something I would hate to see. I'd rather it had the same level as a dark sword and thulecite club, but has different perks. 

I don't ever see anyone using the spear after killing CC either, how exactly is this a problem then?

[BB Marioni]

2 minutes ago, yourAnty said:

I don't ever see anyone using the spear after killing CC either, how exactly is this a problem then?

i mean if you use dark swords to kill spiders, nothing's stopping you from using the brightshade stuff. Also, why would you even XD

[Antynomity]

19 minutes ago, BB Marioni said:

i mean if you use dark swords to kill spiders, nothing's stopping you from using the brightshade stuff. Also, why would you even XD

Because it's apparantely a problem that lower tier gear gets less useful the further in-game you get?

[BB Marioni]

3 minutes ago, yourAnty said:

Because it's apparantely a problem that lower tier gear gets less useful the further in-game you get?

exactly my point. Which is why adding another higher tier item, that's higher tier than the current ones, would just make more lower tier items useless. That's why I would rather see new items that are same tier as the current items, rather than a new higher tier item.

[Vinja]

31 minutes ago, BB Marioni said:

youre comparing using the other items during the early game. What I mean is AFTER you beat CC, then there would be almost no reason to use other ittems once you unlock "the highest defense and damage gears"
They also don't sem expensive enough if that's what you think balances it out. I would rather farm brightshade than pigskins given the current mechanics. Sure, it's not cheap enough to use against every mob. But you will definitely use it against very boss, and might as well just use a spear against regular mobs. So things like dark swords, glass cutters, thulecite clubs, etc wont be picked anymore when it comes to efficiency (unless people prefer them just for aesthetics). The brightshade sword will be dubbed "THE BEST WEAPON" in the game at that point, which is something I would hate to see. I'd rather it had the same level as a dark sword and thulecite club, but has different perks. 

Idk I don’t mind farming pigskin unless you’re talking about specifically not setting up efficient farms to do so. I can easily get 20 per full moon and could even scale it up if I wanted to but it gives more than enough so idk, pigskin doesn’t really seem like much of a problem to me but I guess that could be a personal thing.

Either way, no way people would go back to using a spear for your day to day combat over this lol. I think even if the sword were to be buffed people would mainly use it for bossing or for fun if they’ve got some to spare, but I think your day to day hambat isn’t going anywhere. It’s simply just too good to pass on for how cheap it is lol. 

4 minutes ago, BB Marioni said:

exactly my point. Which is why adding another higher tier item, that's higher tier than the current ones, would just make more lower tier items useless. That's why I would rather see new items that are same tier as the current items, rather than a new higher tier item.

I agree, in fact I hereby declare the golden axe overpowered because it makes the flint axe useless

Pls remove gold tools klei

[Pticman]

59 minutes ago, BB Marioni said:

youre comparing using the other items during the early game. What I mean is AFTER you beat CC, then there would be almost no reason to use other ittems once you unlock "the highest defense and damage gears"
They also don't sem expensive enough if that's what you think balances it out. I would rather farm brightshade than pigskins given the current mechanics. Sure, it's not cheap enough to use against every mob. But you will definitely use it against very boss, and might as well just use a spear against regular mobs. So things like dark swords, glass cutters, thulecite clubs, etc wont be picked anymore when it comes to efficiency (unless people prefer them just for aesthetics). The brightshade sword will be dubbed "THE BEST WEAPON" in the game at that point, which is something I would hate to see. I'd rather it had the same level as a dark sword and thulecite club, but has different perks. 

I think it is ok for low tier gear to be less and less efficient during the game progress, because one of the parts of the progression is the feeling that you are getting stronger.

At the same time, I understand your point, that 1 overpowered weapon can make other weapons useless. The trick is to make the ,,new tier,, of  the stronger weapons, including bright shade sword, which are stronger than dark sword and can be used in the different situations. Even now we have about 3 tiers of weapons :

1 tier - Axe, Spear

2 tier - Tentacle Spike

2.5 tier - Ham Bat

3 tier - Dark Sword, Thulecite Club, Glass Cutter

4 tier - Brightshade sword … (?)

If you are in tier 3 weapon progression already, you would not use less effective weapons, but you can choose between weapons of the same tier. Terraria has similar game progression.

I think it is time to move to another tier. And yes, it should be stronger than weapons from tier before to feel the progression. 

[BB Marioni]

2 minutes ago, Vinja said:

Idk I don’t mind farming pigskin unless you’re talking about specifically not setting up efficient farms to do so. I can easily get 20 per full moon and could even scale it up if I wanted to but it gives more than enough so idk, pigskin doesn’t really seem like much of a problem to me but I guess that could be a personal thing.

Either way, no way people would go back to using a spear for your day to day combat over this lol. I think even if the sword were to be buffed people would mainly use it for bossing or for fun if they’ve got some to spare, but I think your day to day hambat isn’t going anywhere. It’s simply just too good to pass on for how cheap it is lol. 

sure, yeah. gonna depend on personal preference what to use against squishy mobs. we personally use spears and tentacle spikes. But the main point is that, now, if for example we give insane dmg to the brightshade weapons, it's gonna replace all current weapons that people use against bosses. Take note: bosses that we already beat using the current weapons before we get access to the brightshade ones, so we already know that we don't need a stronger weapon to beat all these bosses.
I'm glad with the path they went having the weapon specialize in dealing damage against enemies with planar defense. It's not a stronger weapon, but i has its specific use. It's the best weapon for a specific purpose.

[Yuuko]

5 hours ago, BB Marioni said:

I personally wouldn't want an update like this. This will just make the game fall off the same rabbit hole as all korean mmorpgs, where all updates are just higher level caps and new gears with stronger stats which will render the older items useless. The thing I like with DST is that most of the progress is based on knowledge and player skill, not leveling up and hunting the strongest weapon and armor in the game. I played a similar game before called remnant from the ashes, where they have multiple armor and weapon sets, but none of them are "the strongest". you just have multiple different options for different playstyles, and you collect them all if you want to try them all out. There is no "beginner set" - "end game set" or "godly sets"

I'm with you on this.  When I saw the update adding a different damage that basically nerfs all old weapons against the new mob, its like "what kind of contrived jrpg power creep are we doing here?"  That's exactly how I see this, its power creep but in an awkward way where Klei both wants us to need the new equips, but hasn't given us any reason to want them.

I think the whole planar damage needs a re-look, and that the weapon can be a valuable side-grade from dark sword without issue - but the design now is not good.  As this is the end-game loop I don't think adding some new mechanics is a problem, but this really feels tacked on to have just "damage" this whole time, and now suddenly have "special damage but only for new mobs."  We should want to use these weapons, not just need them, which is the ultimate fail of this beta.

In this regard I think we're actually on the same page.  Players asking for more damage are asking for this because that would make them want to use it.  That might not work for everyone, but its something - and this beta needs something.  I'm fine with more side-grades since in the end game anyone can turn on rain, pop some chili freud, and put on the crown to reach a good peak of damage, but I also think creativity can solve most problems.  If this weapon is the side-grade that breaks the 68 damage cap BUT ignores further damage mods I think that is an acceptable way to go.  It could deal significantly more damage, maybe even 101 per hit if its damage ignored modifications.  If you have other suggestions, best to put them up too - I know some suggestions like having the brightsword give a light radius have also been made.

[Vinja]

38 minutes ago, BB Marioni said:

. Take note: bosses that we already beat using the current weapons before we get access to the brightshade ones, so we already know that we don't need a stronger weapon to beat all these bosses.

Okay let’s follow this to it’s logical conclusion.

If you fight and defeat a boss then you know you are able to beat that boss with whatever equipment you used to do so, therefore your loot should not be better than anything you used to defeat the boss for fear of making that boss and other bosses too easy in the future.

By this logic, no boss should drop any loot. I can kill deerclops with a spear so why should hambats exist? It just makes the boss easier unnecessarily. I can survive without bundle wraps just fine so why should Bee Queen drop them? They completely undermine the spoilage system. Why should fuelweaver drop bone gear? The armor I used to kill him worked just fine. 
 

It’s a reward for overcoming a challenge. It makes you feel good. It’s fun. It feels like you’re actually making progress in this world. Progression, it’s something that many players love to strive for. It gives you a reason to want to complete the content. It gives you another goal to work towards.

54 minutes ago, BB Marioni said:

But the main point is that, now, if for example we give insane dmg to the brightshade weapons, it's gonna replace all current weapons that people use against bosses.

Yeah I mean… That’s how progression works. You get a new item that’s better than your old one and you stop using the old one. There were no tears when I put away my spear for a tentacle spike. No hard feelings when I dropped the tentacle spike for a hambat. No skin off my back when I dropped my hambat for a dark sword. You can argue against this system of progression all you want but it’s already in the game and it’s been in the game forever. It’s time for a new tier of equipment I think, it’s a bit stale using the exact same things I’ve been using for a decade.

Also I don’t think it would entirely replace other gear for bosses, kinda just depends on how rare it is for you. If you have a lot you’ll probably use it for whatever but if you don’t have much you’ll still go for cheaper options.