Characters who need a second rework

[Pedrolar27]

All the characters of Dst have already had a rework, except for one: Wilson, probably this year we will have his rework and that would be the last character but I think Klei is still thinking about updating some characters for example: Willow and Woodie, these 2 characters had a rework a few years ago but they were not a significant change. It would be interesting to see a second update of these characters as well as the others that their rework did not change. 

Edit: Too many replies... I created a monster 

[Cheggf]

Woodie gaining two entirely new forms was not a significant change? He probably had the most changes and effort out of all the reworks.

[dzzydzzy]

Well let's talk about the characters that feel finished first. Characters like Wanda, Wurt, WX-78, Wickerbottom, Maxwell, Wormwood, Wendy, Warly, Webber, Wigfrid. I feel like what makes for a well-rounded, fun dst gameplay experience is a character with progression, even if that progression is just scan all the creatures, collect all the books, etc. Each of these characters I have listed have unique goals that make their playstyle that means prioritizing different resources from early on. 

That being said, the characters I personally feel lack this currently (besides Wilson who is "unfinished") are Willow, Winona and Walter. I think Woodie is honestly fine, he just needs a way to deal with perpetual full moons now that that has been added since his rework. Perhaps some kind of amulet using the iridescent gem.

Willow has no crafts or structures that make her too helpful, Bernie is good for farming nightmare fuel I suppose but it feels like that perk is off-centered. Her whole identity of being a pyromaniac suggests she needs more buffs/abilities/affinity to fire and heat. I know she has a low sanity aura from being near fires, and is immune to fire damage, but it honestly doesn't come up enough in the game to justify it as a great perk. I liked what another forumite suggested for her to have some sort of upgrades to her starting lighter that makes it more viable longterm since its light radius is so small.

Winona should be one of the coolest characters but she only has 2 machines and one of them is utterly useless (the spotlight). Currently, Winona's only viable perks are being able to craft in bulk faster, duct tape (cheaper than a sewing kit) and making catapults which results in great farms that are totally unique to her. The crafting for me is totally outweighed by the fact that it eats your hunger each time you just need to craft one or two things, and the slower crafting time with insufficient hunger. In Uncompromising mode her hunger scales with how hard she is able to work which I love but I also understand why Klei can't simply use ideas from the modding community.  I think more suitable than the spotlight would be a grid of streetlamps that can be attached to one generator, the more lamps you have, the higher the fuel drain. But this would be wonderful for larger bases. The only alternative to this atm is having multiple campfires and fueling each one when night hits? ew. I encourage Klei to come up with other unique contraptions or tools that Winona can also have so that she can actually feel like the hardworking handy-woman that she is.

Walter feels a bit all over the place in terms of perks and just needs a little extra boost to make him a better option, it'd be great if you could actually have more overlap between Woby and Beefalo taming to encourage Walter to stick with her over training another animal (seems redundant). I'd also love some super expensive op ammo for slingshot that maybe does 100 dmg to give him more priorities in terms of his own farming.

[Pedrolar27]

33 minutes ago, Cheggf said:

Woodie gaining two entirely new forms was not a significant change? He probably had the most changes and effort out of all the reworks.

Have you seen this year's reworks? They have completely changed the characters, Woodie's rework only added those 2 transformations that work for specific situations. I like woodie is one of my favorite characters so I think it needs a change

[Dextops]

42 minutes ago, Cheggf said:

Woodie gaining two entirely new forms was not a significant change? He probably had the most changes and effort out of all the reworks.

It’s not that it wasn’t substantial the forms just weren’t that good imo

[slendyproject]

57 minutes ago, dzzydzzy said:

Willow has no crafts or structures that make her too helpful, Bernie is good for farming nightmare fuel I suppose but it feels like that perk is off-centered. Her whole identity of being a pyromaniac suggests she needs more buffs/abilities/affinity to fire and heat. I know she has a low sanity aura from being near fires, and is immune to fire damage, but it honestly doesn't come up enough in the game to justify it as a great perk. I liked what another forumite suggested for her to have some sort of upgrades to her starting lighter that makes it more viable longterm since its light radius is so small.

I dont understand why the character that keeps going on about wanting to burn everything and anything isnt actually incentivized to do it. It would be cool to see a willow that wants to burn every enemy she fights. Maybe significantly increase damage from fire if it was inflicted by a willow? Maybe even have a unique torch that makes sure that fire cant spread from the target that was burned.

[Cheggf]

1 hour ago, Pedrolar27 said:

Have you seen this year's reworks? They have completely changed the characters, Woodie's rework only added those 2 transformations that work for specific situations. I like woodie is one of my favorite characters so I think it needs a change

Have you seen this year's reworks? If tripling the amount of forms you have + changing how transforming is handled is nothing then I really don't see how getting a few new books when you already had so many or changing how your summons work and getting a new spell or two are any better.

[benfroyobro9381]

I do agree with the sentiment that Woodie needs to be revised it. In the mid to late game, people will probably forget about the Moose with Darkswords and Thulecite gear, in most cases, the goose since most of the important landmarks will be discovered, and the beaver and all harvesters will all fall before Berger. The beaver is probably the most relevant tool throughout the whole game but there's a glaring issue with the lack of progression with Woodie's abilities, they simply can't compete with the later game items despite how cheap they are. 

Also on a slightly less relevant note, Walter really needs a rework. 

[PunkShark]

While some people don't agree with Woodie's mechanics as of now. His refresh changed him fundamentally and better in almost every conceivable way back then. Pre-rework woodie was absolutely awful to play as.

With that being said he could certainly use some tweaks as he's a bit rough around the edges. Especially and ironically enough his only valuable downside has made his life a living hell for multiplayer pubs when it comes to wicker and him struggling around alter phase. Where you'd rather just want to play somebody else. It's not entirely good when a mechanic makes playing it so miserable that you'd rather want to change character. Due to the wereforms lack of control it can feel incredibly limited and annoying, especially when you lose all of your hunger each and every time and makes anything regarding gameplay bit of a struggle to do when you turn into a were-goose-moose-beaver. But it's a bit of roadblock if i'm being honest to fix. Especially if Klei wants to stay true to his roots that, 'there is little to nothing Woodie can do under full moons' as referenced in one of the loading screen tips. But then Woodie needs at least something to compensate for that for moons storms and wicker books otherwise it just feels so uncontrollable. And that's not even taking into account for new players either. They're absolutely doomed. 

in terms of his character and his powers. i think what i personally wanted to change is
 -remove the 20hp penalty when eating idols, being limited to the forms is already far more of a punishment as your hunger drains down to 0 and your sanity is draining tremendously always with limited abilities.
- make goose a little faster and have the ability to lose agro on almost anything in mere seconds so it can be used as an escape plan via hounds, shadow creatures etc.
- beaver chopping faster, and remove the ability to not get treeguards, maybe let beaver eat wood again to keep up the meter for more time chopping wood. Also helps sticking to his wood eating roots as well since he kinda lost that aspect. All of these changes help making beaver better at what it does as well as easier treeguard farming for more experienced players. 
- up the dmg a bit for moose really due to the slower dps it has and make its charge do slightly more dmg so it feels a bit more unique, slight faster walking speed so it doesn't feel so slow
- Fullmoons (and storms) makes his forms stronger to compensate a little for the hell he gets through via wicker and storms. 


it is important to remember however that Woodie is not a speedrun character, he is not the best character, and especially not a boss killer, but he is a character who can do quite a bit of everything compared to one character who can only do, most of the time one thing that they're exceptionally good at while Woodie can do things on his own that's better than most but not fantastic at it which is what his character is all about. And even then his idols are always dirt cheap and easy to use for most survival-esque occasions and they also never rot and save resources. including extras like teamwork where I think he shines a lot more around other players like Warly, Wigfrid, or Wortox which works very well for what DST is all about. 


I am wayy too passionate about this Canadian i have been doing this stupid post for the past hour.

[Wonz]

3 hours ago, Cheggf said:

Woodie gaining two entirely new forms was not a significant change? He probably had the most changes and effort out of all the reworks.

It was big effort yes so it would be a huge shame those forms were not s good compared to just log suit and hambat which you get very early. Imo character is perfect if you can make a good use of its aspects to the end game. Past first armor and first werepig staying human is more comfortable and always just better choice. 

[Nweeky]

2 hours ago, slendyproject said:

- - Maybe even have a unique torch that makes sure that fire cant spread from the target that was burned.

I like this idea. Her fire abilities have always been difficult to manage not to incentivise griefing too much, but giving her control NOT to spread the fire would be great. Besides, we currently dont have a character that utilises damage over time effects in fights, it would be a very interesting perk to see. Like Willow being able to use the fire staff to its full potential panicking burning enemies without worries of everything going up in smoke. It would give utility not to always go for wet bosses for electric damage, but instead have them be dry for some DoT and disruption play with a Willow teammate instead.

[Evelo]

Just here to say again that it is a refresh, not a rework. Very different things.

But Willow and Winona deserve a re-refresh.
I suspect people will mention Wormwood and Warly but I love those two and don't think anything needs to be done to them personally.
I would love if Klei refreshed Lucy to make her more important like she was back in DS solo.

[MadMatt]

2 hours ago, PunkShark said:

(and make its extra dmg against em work as beaver cause it's in the code but doesn't actually work.)

Huh? This is false, a tall Treeguard takes around 68 hits to fell while Deerclops who has comparable health takes almost double that amount. The Beaver has about a 2x damage multiplier against tree enemies.

[Cloakingsumo198]

Woodie, willow, and Winona are the ones who really need to be looked at again for improvements. It's a shame because they all were the first to have their reworks and it seems they got it the worst cause of it.

I also feel like wigfrid, Walter, wickerbottom, Wanda, and warly could use some tweaks as well but nothing major.

[PunkShark]

16 minutes ago, MadMatt said:

Huh? This is false, a tall Treeguard takes around 68 hits to fell while Deerclops who has comparable health takes almost double that amount. The Beaver has about a 2x damage multiplier against tree enemies.

Ah, you're right. i guess it must've been an old bug that i forgot got patched. I'll edit it quickly then.

[MadMatt]

4 hours ago, Cheggf said:

Have you seen this year's reworks? If tripling the amount of forms you have + changing how transforming is handled is nothing then I really don't see how getting a few new books when you already had so many or changing how your summons work and getting a new spell or two are any better.

Kind of a moot point when it is universally agreed that almost NEVER using those forms is the optimal choice, while Wickerbottom's new books have been huge game changers in her day to day play and specific strategies. Yes, adding new transformations you will neglect very early into the game is nothing compared to controlling entire aspects of the game that other characters cannot even hope to mimic.

But to add to the topic and cease being such a downer, Woodie really does need a rework. Both from a meta and fun point of view his current Wereforms just don't work. They're so bad it's hard to overstate, and they prevent you from using ANYTHING other than backpacks with them which makes the whole progression gameplay flat out worse for him. The general concept around them is really really cool but it just leads to awful gameplay that either nudges you away from natural progression points of the game to make use of his abilities or make you question why you don't just play Wilson instead. SOMETHING needs to be added to him to encourage delving into the ruins and going down CC's questline because all the equipment is useless to Wereforms and moonstorms can only act as a refuel on garbage abilities lmao. 

[Notecja]

To me Woodie is missing that sort progress during game, that some other character have. He starts pretty strong on first day, as being able to get pretty cheap 90% armour and free weapon + charge for many enemies, or explore quickly to find moon island or monke insland, or just start chopping some forest - with choice to spawn or not spawn treeguards. 

Aaand that's all. All what he starts is all he has. His wereforms are never improving. In mid game his most important perks are becoming... maybe not useless, but outclassed by normal equipment. Then just imagine him being able to at least use amulets with wereforms (we can carry backpack - why not amulets, clothes, etc). It won't be much wow, like is not really gonna save him in every situation, but hey, shiny speeed goose! Or moose not slowed down that much. Maybe little health regen? Maybe lesser sanity penalty? Not overheating during summer? So far it's my favourite idea for Woodie and it's not mine.

[UnknowX]

I do agree that willow need something extra to make her more useful for the team or interesting for solo play, maybe something like wickerbottom's fiery pen, to better control her fire perk (lighting fires and putting the out instantly), it could be an upgrade for her lighter, like Dumbledore's deluminator. A fully charged item could work as a thermal stone for winter. 

Winona needs more crafts/machines to make her more useful, now her only good thing is the catapults. Have some new crafts like the wrenches (prominent on most of her art) as a personal weapon/tool to use on her machines, to be able to turn off her generator/G.E.M.erators to save fuel, and also make them able to power other machines like fire extinguishers. Be able to make other machines like propellers for the boats. Be able to use frazzled wires to repair/make broken clockworks. The options are plenty.

Now for woodie, I think he only needs some way to deal with the full moons, but mostly for the endgame content. Like a new idol that blocks all transformation for 3 days. Maybe for late game a new improved version of each idol that uses a living log as an ingredient, in exchange for no health penalty and better stats/perks for each transformation.

 

 

[-Variant]

Please, Willow, please.
She's my favorite but she feels so so so dated with her rework, they focused so much on Bernie and not on Willow herself. Augh.

[Spirit Glow]

I like Woodie but I think he could benefit from some changes.

The main problem I have with moose form is that honestly its just easier for me to fight as Woodie. He isnt as slow and has the benefit of being able to eat and therefore heal in a pinch. Maybe if moose had the ability to eat? I feel like it would incentivize fighting as moose, at least for me it would. I havent thought about it too much but I'm curious on what others think. Wood it be a good change? Too much? Not enough? 

As for goose, it definitely needs a reason to exist after the map has been thoroughly explored. Not sure what changes would look like tho. I always thought being able to "distract" or taunt mobs would be pretty cool while you run around as a goose (like leading them on a wild goose chase, get it?) 

 

Winona imo needs more things to build. When i think of handywoman I think of a fixer or builder of objects that help tend to the needs of the base/team. I picture maybe building something that helps farms, an industrial fan to keep ur base cool in the summer and dries you if wet, or even upgrade some structures or walls.

Maybe give her the ability to repair burned structures or hammer structures for their full cost back?

 

And finally Willow. I honestly don't know changes she could need but she certainly is pretty far behind some of the other characters in DST. Maybe she can light big bernie on fire for a period of time to give him a damage area of effect. Or let her craft a throwable molotov cocktail that functions like the coconade from Shipwrecked. 

 

 

[MadMatt]

16 minutes ago, Spirit Glow said:

Maybe if moose had the ability to eat? I feel like it would incentivize fighting as moose, at least for me it would. I havent thought about it too much but I'm curious on what others think.

This change would make the Moose absolutely viable as an almost all around combat option, but kinda still is fundamentally broken. Yeah, you save on weapons and armor while still having longevity, but then when are you going to make use of marble suits or night armor? Ruins gear? Fuelweaver loot? Enlightened crown? He'd still pale in comparison to what that equipment can offer you, and you can amass large quantities of them that you effectively have infinite amounts which will just kick the obsolescence down the road a bit. The Wereforms need something almost unmatched or at least much harder to amass than what they currently offer.

Kinda like how the Beaver is the best single entity chopper in the game but worse than Bearger or Maxwell/Wurt, the Wereforms should be the absolute best at one aspect, but only on their own. So the Moose would have unparalleled armor and damage but only if you don't consider things like Thul crown shield, Enlightened crown gestalts, Fuelweaver invincibility, Wolfgang/Wanda, etc.  It'd keep the idea that there are better options to offset the cheapness while still having good use if you lack the preparation or time to acquire more specialized gear.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

i think that woodie only needs a way to remove the tediousness in moonstorm and a buff in his forms instead of changing them or removing parts of how they work

wearing amulets doesnt bring anything new and eating would mean removing a limitation to make him a wilson with steroids, being trap in the form makes the gameplay unique

buff speed for goose, health and dps for moose and you will see people using the forms in more scenarios outside of early and for killing spiders and hounds while keeping the gameplay unique

downsides are a huge component in the gameplay and the fun and woodie's form have really fun downside concept. He feels unique not like wilba which was just a very hungry and speedy wilson with hambat and tools as hands

[Spirit Glow]

9 minutes ago, MadMatt said:

This change would make the Moose absolutely viable as an almost all around combat option, but kinda still is fundamentally broken. Yeah, you save on weapons and armor while still having longevity, but then when are you going to make use of marble suits or night armor? Ruins gear? Fuelweaver loot? Enlightened crown? He'd still pale in comparison to what that equipment can offer you, and you can amass large quantities of them that you effectively have infinite amounts which will just kick the obsolescence down the road a bit. The Wereforms need something almost unmatched or at least much harder to amass than what they currently offer.

Kinda like how the Beaver is the best single entity chopper in the game but worse than Bearger or Maxwell/Wurt, the Wereforms should be the absolute best at one aspect, but only on their own. So the Moose would have unparalleled armor and damage but only if you don't consider things like Thul crown shield, Enlightened crown gestalts, Fuelweaver invincibility, Wolfgang/Wanda, etc.  It'd keep the idea that there are better options to offset the cheapness while still having good use if you lack the preparation or time to acquire more specialized gear.

Great point! I didnt consider the fact that no matter how you slice it, playing as moose will always essentially deny you out of some great gear in the late game.

 

The only issue is how to fix this without making moose too strong right from the start :0 I appreciate the input 

Just now, ArubaroBeefalo said:

downsides are a huge component in the gameplay and the fun and woodie's form has a really fun downside concept. He feels unique not like wilba which was just a very hungry and speedy wilson with hambat and tools as hands

Definitely! I admittedly was thinking about Wilba when making the suggestion haha 
When you say health for moose are you saying base health or more of a regen?

 

[MadMatt]

1 minute ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

wearing amulets doesnt bring anything new

It does though, not just for the Wereforms capabilities but also for Woodie gameplay over all. Having 20% more speed on the Moose would make previously needlessly difficult boss fights like Ancient Guardian and Klaus MUCH easier, and if you add a road you'd have the benefits of the Moose while having the speed of the Goose. Not to mention the Magi is a straight performance enhancer to the Goose, and honestly alone would encourage Woodie to go to the ruins to strengthen his Wereforms. But then of course there's the newly buffed Lazy Forager and potential for LG amulet healing yadda yadda...

I've already addressed this with you before so I won't insult you by going over all my points again, but tying some forms of progression to important areas of the game would do more for making a character enjoyable than giving them those same benefits as part of their base kit.

Agree on not budging for his lack of actions downsides though, it makes him truly unique and fun to play compared to other characters!

[Juny Pear]

Without having read any other comments beside the main post, I feel there are very little characters who actually could even get anything out of a second refresh.

I thought Woodie's was substantial enough despite what some might say and genuinely changed how you approach playing woodie entirely [especially compared to previous iterations which in my opinion were never that fun or relied on weird mechanics]. It'd be nice to get a little extra something but that's mostly just smaller tweaks if anything.

Willow is definitely a character I feel would be great to get a second refresh because to be honest I feel using fire in general as a mechanic has so much unapped potential and is currently not well fleshed out for any character.

Probably the character with the most untapped potential though is winona in my eyes because i genuinely feel like her buildings come way too rarely into play, practically speaking. The spotlight is... honestly pretty expensive in my opinion for what it does [in terms of fuel] and catapults have the problem of feeling like they were specifically made for farms, and thus they just don't provide much impact. And as much as I like fast crafting, this feels like it could easily be given to every character through some kind of structure or item as a sort of qol thing and not really a character exclusive perk.

Spoiler

Lastly [I feel this could be an unpopular opinion, idk] in my eyes wickerbottom got done dirty. It feels like half of her books before the refresh mostly existed somewhere between "Makes for good farms" and "I don't really know what to do with this", and that didn't really change much. Sure she got more practical books compared to before but not only do some of them feel very derivative of already exisitng books, the most useful ones feel like they shouldn't be the responsibility of a single character. And that's on top of their actual effects being still pretty simple, in the boring way. I understand that this might play into her theme of being a librarian [as in doing things in a sorta dry and straight way] but at the same time I do feel there could have been some more interaction with books/their effects or maybe something related to researching crafting recipies for instance. As it stands the most interesting interactions that currently come to mind for me are farms [which i dont like to directly factor into things like character design], having some access to weather control [which i would prefer to be available to all characters in some form] and the fact that wurt can read books for varying amounts of sanity. Most other interactions in my eyes either have some kind of better alternative [on tentacles for farms], feel relatively impractical [everything encyclopedia imo] or just feel lackluster [the end is nigh as a whole].

TL;DR for the spoilered part but I'm probably just biased because I never really considered wickerbottom to be an interesting character to play, but... yeah I was pretty disappointed by the refresh and think she could probably stand another look. She has tools that are powerful, they just don't feel engaging to me, nor do they feel up to snuff compared to how other characters play.