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would you have prefered wormwood or warbuck


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4 minutes ago, . . . said:

bro, i'm just gonna give you this advice to not mention or care about warbucks on this forums because it's a waste of your time it will do nothing but waste your time.

 

i see that with the chatting in the ocean gang above

i hope they put their effort of doing what they like and not what a bunch of white knight crying babies in twitter wants

8 minutes ago, sylvia wander o said:

Warbucks fans I have bad news for you about Wilton, Winnie, Wallace, Waverly, and Watricia.

neither of those were cancelled for being cultural problematic, that is the point if you missed it which shows how right is @. . .

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The reality is that these two things are examples of why it's become more difficult to do things in an early access environment. 

In clear words this time. Warbucks was removed because the narrative became that we wanted a character that was racist, and wanted a "bad white guy" to be in the game. It wasn't because people were complaining. I have explained this before. 

The problem wasn't complaints to us, the problem was players bickering to each other about who Warbucks was and what he represented. We had already fixed issues with the ingame messaging and were fine with it. But the conversations about it were bad, and players were being crappy to each other. He wasn't so good of a character that it was worth keeping him around.

The mutations were just something that was ultimately decided didn't fit within the game artistically. I don't remember a single complaint about it at the time, other than discussions internally. (did that ever even reach the live game?)

If you are going to argue that we're bowing down to the complainers, these are both examples of how we're literally doing the opposite. Because there were no complainers to begin with, and now there are.... 

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16 minutes ago, sylvia wander o said:

Warbucks fans I have bad news for you about Wilton, Winnie, Wallace, Waverly, and Watricia.

well at least they never realy released and were playable, unlike warbucks that was part of the hamlet trailer, and realy fits the hamlet dlc, and if you think he was bland or boring then what about walani? her personality was all about being boring even, so how she was ok? and again, warbucks to me was like the wilson of hamlet, basic and stuff, and if what ever he was or not like racist or what ever simple being able to change that aspect of him is easy to do, i mean klei even done that even where they changed some warbucks quotes and even changed his portrait from that blunderbus to a shovel even, and i do still think removing warbucks was a weird thing to do

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10 minutes ago, JoeW said:

Warbucks was removed because the narrative became that we wanted a character that was racist, and wanted a "bad white guy" to be in the game.

lol and then wagstaff was added as the replacement big bad white guy character :wilson_ecstatic:

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18 minutes ago, JoeW said:

The problem wasn't complaints to us, the problem was players bickering to each other about who Warbucks was and what he represented. We had already fixed issues with the ingame messaging and were fine with it. But the conversations about it were bad, and players were being crappy to each other. He wasn't so good of a character that it was worth keeping him around.

i dont see a good thing to punish innocent players because others used warbucks as weapon...

18 minutes ago, JoeW said:

The mutations were just something that was ultimately decided didn't fit within the game artistically. I don't remember a single complaint about it at the time, other than discussions internally. (did that ever even reach the live game?)

i though some people complained about the morbid nature of the mutations because of phobias (which is a valid complain) which made the company add the setting to diseable their appearance (like how grounded has setting for their spiders). Maybe was a goship but one that fitted with how the setting was added

18 minutes ago, JoeW said:

If you are going to argue that we're bowing down to the complainers, these are both examples of how we're literally doing the opposite. Because there were no complainers to begin with, and now there are.... 

with how short was the explanations of such changes goships extend. TBH and with all due repect to workers, i wont say the team did preciselly the opposite, not atleast int he warbucks example

6 minutes ago, . . . said:

lol and then wagstaff was added as the replacement big bad white guy character :wilson_ecstatic:

plot twist, wagstaff is a researcher for certain paramilitary organization looking for ocultist stuff from certain european country during WWII 

edit: looks like einstein which was from that country xD

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4 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

i though some people complained about the morbid nature of the mutations because of phobias (which is a valid complain) which made the company add the setting to diseable their appearance (like how grounded has setting for their spiders). Maybe was a goship but one that fitted with how the setting was added

Such a setting doesn't even exist, you're just able to turn the mobs off entirely in the world settings like most anything else.

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3 minutes ago, sylvia wander o said:

Such a setting doesn't even exist, you're just able to turn the mobs off entirely in the world settings like most anything else.

The only thing like this that exists is a mod, which is... not official, so...

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2 minutes ago, Nettalie said:

The only thing like this that exists is a mod, which is... not official, so...

Yea in fact I made the art (or, well, more like an edit to the vanilla textures) for that mod in response to the singular thread asking for a toggle for the body horror mobs, BECAUSE Klei wasn't going to add a toggle on their own.

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6 minutes ago, sylvia wander o said:

Such a setting doesn't even exist, you're just able to turn the mobs off entirely in the world settings like most anything else.

 

1 minute ago, Nettalie said:

The only thing like this that exists is a mod, which is... not official, so...

image.thumb.png.6ae3a4f924d1dfe29f4a5be9bfed4329.png

idk what does to the revive mechanic or the pengull loot but there is a way to dont have the 2 morbid mobs which was my point

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8 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

idk what does to the revive mechanic or the pengull loot but there is a way to dont have the 2 morbid mobs which was my point

You may notice these settings also contain near every single mob in the game. Are you suggesting that Klei was giving in to people's complaints by... adding world settings for these mobs along with settings to disable every individual piece of content added since 2017? Either way this is an entirely different claim, this isn't a visual toggle they were forced to add, these are world settings they added like a year later along with an entire rework of the world settings system and options for every single piece of content that was without a toggle since 2017.

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8 minutes ago, sylvia wander o said:

You may notice these settings also contain near every single mob in the game. Are you suggesting that Klei was giving in to people's complaints by... adding world settings for these mobs along with settings to disable every individual piece of content added since 2017? Either way this is an entirely different claim, this isn't a visual toggle they were forced to add, these are world settings they added like a year later along with an entire rework of the world settings system and options for every single piece of content that was without a toggle since 2017.

????????????

 

the setting was added way after they said they wont continue the horror theme and also almost all settings at the time have "more" and "less"

idk why you are saying that but ok, whatever, really tired of your comments

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I miss him, I do.
However, responding to the actual thread name, it was Wheeler that we got out of Warbucks.

Wormwood was in production FAR before his demise, this was shown and explained with his various different concepts and his heavy connection to the Lore.
Wheeler had none of these concept stages or any lore-tie-ins that were publicly showcased or explored, and she fills the exact same roles Warbucks did.

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22 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

????????????

 

the setting was added way after they said they wont continue the horror theme and also almost all settings at the time have "more" and "less"

idk why you are saying that but ok, whatever, really tired of your comments

I don't want to be rude, but I honestly fail to see what that has to do with why that setting was added.

Just because they don't have more and less options doesn't mean it was done for that specific reason, especially when at that point in time nobody was really talking about the horror mobs and coincidentally at the same time the entire worldgen settings got an overhaul.

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27 minutes ago, Nettalie said:

I don't want to be rude, but I honestly fail to see what that has to do with why that setting was added.

Just because they don't have more and less options doesn't mean it was done for that specific reason, especially when at that point in time nobody was really talking about the horror mobs and coincidentally at the same time the entire worldgen settings got an overhaul.

im not saying that the setting probes that they stopped developing horror mobs because complains (less when i already said that the setting was added way before) im answering joew saying "i dont remember complains at the time", maybe he doesnt but i see logical and a must to add such setting if there is a phobia that is related to that kind of shapes like how a must is having an arachnophobia setting in grounded. So someone in the team acknowledge it. Maybe im wrong but the setting was added at a different time than the overhaul of the world setting

maybe i shouldn't say both things in the same sentence because is confusing or maybe i shouldnt even argue this in this forum

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9 hours ago, -Variant said:

I miss him, I do.
However, responding to the actual thread name, it was Wheeler that we got out of Warbucks.

Wormwood was in production FAR before his demise, this was shown and explained with his various different concepts and his heavy connection to the Lore.
Wheeler had none of these concept stages or any lore-tie-ins that were publicly showcased or explored, and she fills the exact same roles Warbucks did.

Based on this update post by KLei:

It's implied that Wormwood replaced Warbucks, at least that's how I interpret it, correct me if I'm wrong.

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11 hours ago, JoeW said:

The problem wasn't complaints to us, the problem was players bickering to each other about who Warbucks was and what he represented. We had already fixed issues with the ingame messaging and were fine with it. But the conversations about it were bad, and players were being crappy to each other. He wasn't so good of a character that it was worth keeping him around.

I was part of the Hamlet beta and early-access and I don't fully remember people complaining about Warbucks' narrative and/or messaging (so I am in no position to comment about this), what I do remember was people complaining about his art-style and that he looked more of a "modded" character than an official Don't Starve survivor. (A complaint which I believed and still believe to be untrue in my eyes, Warbucks' art-style fitted perfectly in the game.)

11 hours ago, JoeW said:

If you are going to argue that we're bowing down to the complainers, these are both examples of how we're literally doing the opposite. Because there were no complainers to begin with, and now there are.... 

Of course there are complainers, you removed a character that was loved by, I admit, a select few and because it was unorthodox on your part to remove a character people joined the bandwagon and started complaining as well that things could've been done differently. If you admit that the in-game messaging was fixed but the game-play aspect of Warbucks was "not very interesting to play" as you stated then you could've reworked the character to be more interesting instead of choosing the option to remove him entirely. Just because the community were complaining and being crappy to each other over a character is no justification to punish them by removing him entirely, you merely redirected this hatred towards yourselves and even increased the complaints by this choice.

P.S. In regard to Hamlet and what we lost I will link a post by MasteroftheTDS that was released a few hours ago in the DS:Hamlet forums:

 

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2 hours ago, mathem99 said:

Based on this update post by KLei:

I have seen this post and while the wording on this specific post implies this, none of the other evidence or what has been shared on the Rhymes with Play live streams supports it at all.

I'm willing to have a dev disconfirm this but Wormwoods heavy lore importance suggests against him being a sudden replacement for Warbucks.
This also includes all the early files of him that made it into the files and all of the concept art and development shown off by Klei.

Wheeler who also fits Warbucks general niche just appeared later on, she might not've been his replacement but I find it hard to look at it that way since I don't think she's ever actually been talked about or explored outside her introduction post, including concept phases.
(I don't even think she's got any publicly showcased concept art at all currently?)

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2 hours ago, mathem99 said:

Of course there are complainers, you removed a character that was loved by, I admit, a select few and because it was unorthodox on your part to remove a character people joined the bandwagon and started complaining as well that things could've been done differently. If you admit that the in-game messaging was fixed but the game-play aspect of Warbucks was "not very interesting to play" as you stated then you could've reworked the character to be more interesting instead of choosing the option to remove him entirely. Just because the community were complaining and being crappy to each other over a character is no justification to punish them by removing him entirely, you merely redirected this hatred towards yourselves and even increased the complaints by this choice.

I think part of the problem in terms of gameplay was that there simply... wasn't really much to do with warbucks that wouldn't feel out of place. His gameplay [at least on paper] revolved around going out adventuring and accumulating money for sanity bonuses that would help with adventuring more, but at the tradeoff of needing to keep food in mind more. In practice though this mostly didn't impact gameplay quite as much as it was probably meant to, which resulted in him being pretty basic in a more underwhelming way than someone like Walani, who could approach sea travel in shipwrecked way differently than other survivors. And if we factor in the scope of what hamlet tried doing, with characters that honestly in terms of gameplay impact imo surpass anything we had seen in DS up until that point, Warbucks stuck out even more as just sorta boring to play.

But that is only the gameplay side, which if anything I think is fair to say was not the main reason they decided to just soft remove him. You also need to think about if it was worth it to rework him in the first place, and honestly as parts of this thread show it probably wouldn't have been because the folks at klei wanted to specifically avoid the sort of discussions where people argue over whether or not Warbucks is a problematic character or not or that people think the intention behind Warbucks was to be a racist character. And that is regardless of whether or not they change parts of his dialogue or art, because those same parts of dialogue and artwork that made him problematic have already been released to the public and thus the perception a lot of players will have of him will forever be stuck on that first release. As joe said himself, it wasn't about the ingame messaging itself, it was about how people talked about him.

With that in mind and the team internally discussing whether or not Warbucks should remain in the game, I do not think we should just dismiss that as a valid argument because it was seemingly "fixed already". In my eyes selectively picking out what is being talked about in this case only serves to undermine the actual thought process that went into the decision and puts the devs into a bad position for reasons that at least I feel are pretty uncomfortable to think about.

2 hours ago, mathem99 said:

P.S. In regard to Hamlet and what we lost I will link a post by MasteroftheTDS that was released a few hours ago in the DS:Hamlet forums:

Also I think it is worth mentioning that we don't know how credible this person as a source even is in the first place. I don't think it's far fetched that a bunch of hamlet content was left on the cutting room floor and I'm sure the reasons behind it are unfortunate, but they are presenting very vague things as fact without any tangible evidence that they have actual knowledge. Granted I don't even know if they would legally be allowed to say more [assuming that they indeed do have some sort of actual knowledge about things], but I feel like I can't really be blamed for staying skeptical on this.

It's not like everything they say is wrong either, some parts do hold a bit of truth we could prove, but for the most part what they say is either too vague or something we just can't know at all for sure without jumping to conclusions.

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5 hours ago, mathem99 said:

If you admit that the in-game messaging was fixed but the game-play aspect of Warbucks was "not very interesting to play" as you stated then you could've reworked the character to be more interesting instead of choosing the option to remove him entirely

nah, better removed than keeping him without his racism

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46 minutes ago, Echsrick said:

i honestly never even remembered him saying anything racist, and i played him when his art still got the gun

Well he didn't say anything that was racist, but some of his quotes referenced stuff that historically was... well it was problematic. I believe one thing was the east india company, which had a big role in colonizing the americas and it was phrased vaguely positive, so... yeah I think it's fair to say that it can be seen as problematic for sure.

Also the gun was the artwork that was made later. The art that got replaced was him with a shovel, which never got into any publicly playable builds for hamlet. We only know about it because of an art stream. It might have been changed for a similar reason to some quotes, but we can't be sure about the exact reason so who knows.

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1 hour ago, Echsrick said:

i honestly never even remembered him saying anything racist, and i played him when his art still got the gun

1 hour ago, Nettalie said:

Well he didn't say anything that was racist, but some of his quotes referenced stuff that historically was... well it was problematic. I believe one thing was the east india company, which had a big role in colonizing the americas and it was phrased vaguely positive, so... yeah I think it's fair to say that it can be seen as problematic for sure.

Also the gun was the artwork that was made later. The art that got replaced was him with a shovel, which never got into any publicly playable builds for hamlet. We only know about it because of an art stream. It might have been changed for a similar reason to some quotes, but we can't be sure about the exact reason so who knows.

there were just few. I remember one about ice boxes that was the most problematic

he had potential for more xD

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I felt like a lot of the hype behind Warbucks was a result of his removal. Like a kid who only wants a toy because they can't play with it. 

His lore- basic

Design- lackluster

Gameplay- boring

If I were Klei i certainly wouldn't have any regrets about removing the character. 

 

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