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Combat in this game is too simple, and I think more whips are one of the answers.


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Like I said in my previous post- as long as there’s a way for people to still enjoy the Old Combat System, (for whoever may want that..) Klei can crank everything else up to 11 with a Reimagined Combat System.

There actually is a world Gen setting to choose to host your worlds as “Classic” or “Together” and while currently: I don’t see much difference in those settings..

Imagine what the differences COULD BE.

As long as people who enjoy the game for what it is can still enjoy it for what it is- why hold back what it could become?

People who loved Old School Minecraft didn’t stop the Creators of Minecraft from making a full on Combat Update. (Literally named Combat Update..)

The people who want more in-depth combat gets to experience the new version, while people still wanting the classic experience can play the simplified way.

You satisfy both the people who want change, and the ones who hate change.

Sprinkle in some extra world Gen preset settings/difficulties, host some Klei official/dedicated worlds with Classic/Together Gameplay toggles, and celebrate your victory in being able to do something new and exciting without making people who didn’t want it upset.

As you said- Forge was 3-4 YEARS ago, that means Klei probably has some ideas that’s just been floating about since then, they may have even used some of those ideas in their newest “RotWood” game. 

I don’t feel like mobs should be a direct copy/paste of forge mechanics- while I never got to play it, from the way it’s described implies Forced Team Cooperation or Utter Failure. and people seem to forget that DST can still be played Alone- So despite any changes it still needs to be playable and enjoyable alone.

What Klei “Could” maybe do is offer up a separate Mode, or maybe some distant island out at sea where while on the island survivors are bestowed gifts/powers that once leaving the island are taken away.. 

But, if Klei just stopped doing updates on DST and released a Dont Starve 2 with all the huge combat changes and mob behavior changes you would expect from an official sequel- significantly LESS people would complain instead of just updating DST’s combat out of blue without even an option of playing the old style.

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17 hours ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

i dont get the suggestion, whips makes the combat even simplier. As Wanda most of the time you only need to hold F and move a little in the opposite direction, that with a character without healing limitations would be very boring

There are three sides which could change combat.

  1. Enemies
  2. Players
  3. Weapons

1. Enemies: not much to explain. Just an example of crab king how it can absolutely suck or example of ancient guardian how it can be more fun than average boss. Anything that allows you to benefit from anything than facetanking or hit X times and outside attack range is a breath of fresh air.
Though reworking this many enemies is too much effort for small team so it's unlikely.

2. Players: Probably simplest thing that could make combat more lively would be making enemies attack every 1-2 seconds which would be too fast to leave their range but allow all characters to have wheeler's dodge. Dark souls style though it wouldn't be very much different from what we have now if bosses will have 1-2 attacks and making more is also an effort to make.

3. Weapons: Making them actually different item in other terms than just damage and sprite. While whips have range of 2 spears as long weapon could have range of 1.5 and maybe along with axes ability to be thrown and retrieved. Ever played ARK? I hate that game but the ability to throw spears for one big damage was fun. Hammers could stun some enemies so you can have different way to deal with hordes which i mentioned here also I've once shared parry like dodge attack idea for fencing sword if you're interested

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3 minutes ago, Wonz said:

There are three sides which could change combat.

  1. Enemies
  2. Players
  3. Weapons

1. Enemies: not much to explain. Just an example of crab king how it can absolutely suck or example of ancient guardian how it can be more fun than average boss. Anything that allows you to benefit from anything than facetanking or hit X times and outside attack range is a breath of fresh air.
Though reworking this many enemies is too much effort for small team so it's unlikely.

2. Players: Probably simplest thing that could make combat more lively would be making enemies attack every 1-2 seconds which would be too fast to leave their range but allow all characters to have wheeler's dodge. Dark souls style though it wouldn't be very much different from what we have now if bosses will have 1-2 attacks and making more is also an effort to make.

3. Weapons: Making them actually different item in other terms than just damage and sprite. While whips have range of 2 spears as long weapon could have range of 1.5 and maybe along with axes ability to be thrown and retrieved. Ever played ARK? I hate that game but the ability to throw spears for one big damage was fun. Hammers could stun some enemies so you can have different way to deal with hordes which i mentioned here also I've once shared parry like dodge attack idea for fencing sword if you're interested

ok but i was talking about adding a standart whip to fix combat when that would make it less interesting

as i said, adding more tools for combat can make a huge difference. Also adding fun to fight enemies helps a lot, two of my favourite mobs are dragoons from SW and scorpions from hamlet for how fun and dinamic are their kit, instead in dst we fight a huge % of the time a -100IQ rooks

pd. i have to say that CK is a really fun boss when fought with people, the problem is how imb4 are his stats and how punishing is for such little to 0 reward

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I skipped the thread - just replying to the op.  I'll go back to read the thread later sry

I think the problem is just that you're good at the game.  Any new mechanic will be quickly devoured and exploited, leaving an even more simple game in its wake.  Its a simple fact, if new option is better than old option, then new option gets used and the game gets even easier.  If new option is worse than old option, then its not used like 90% of other bad options aren't used, and nothing changes.

Its better that Klei lets combat remain mostly the same and focuses on giving bosses new and interesting mechanics that we play around instead - ie crab king, toad stool, celestial champion, etc.  Each boss being different, and an encapsulated experience gives use variety in our play even as our combat remains the same.  What puts AFW on top of most ppl's lists of best bosses is that you have multiple things you need to prepare for the fight, as well as different tasks to complete during the fight, and little of it overlaps with other fights.

Wanda is a great example of this - while her whip is a fun and unique mechanic for many it became too easy too quick and they were dissatisfied because of it.  Even the severely punishing low health of staying in old form isn't that dangerous if you're on your game.

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worth pointing out that if you think combat is too simple because it's "count x hits and then press a button" well then I hate to break it to you but a dodge roll or parry wouldn't change anything because you'd still have to count hits and press a button, the only difference would be that now you don't even have to move so it's even more braindead than before

like shosuko said, any new mechanic that gets added will instantly be learnt by all the players with thousands of hours, the game will go back to being easy as hell and nothing will have changed 2 weeks later

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Having more tools to engage allows different ways to approach combat you could go on into more suicidal situations and possibly come out on top or it would just make the game an even bigger snooze fest to the already experienced.

If the enemies are too difficult to face alone like forge it would make the single player experience hellish if its not the same difficulty anybody with a couple friends will just blow through the game.

Honestly I'm fine with a couple weapon animation changes/reworks and more interactions with the already existing mobs.

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20 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

for example maybe something like a Turtle that spins around inside it’s shell trying to hit you before becoming dizzy for a few moments leaving it vulnerable for attack.

Spoiler

Mosnado.webp.650db43e4ec55d6d7d6cd8007a5ac7f8.webpDizzy_Mosling.webp.a4add223c418d1f7d1fb1a668d0e5b8d.webp

3 hours ago, Wonz said:

2. Players: Probably simplest thing that could make combat more lively would be making enemies attack every 1-2 seconds which would be too fast to leave their range but allow all characters to have wheeler's dodge. Dark souls style though it wouldn't be very much different from what we have now if bosses will have 1-2 attacks and making more is also an effort to make.

Spoiler

 

Now I've read the thread - and I find these threads really interesting b/c a lot of suggestions are actually already in the game!

People just tend to do what works best.  There are a lot of crock pot recipes and ppl come here to complain about meatballs as if they can't cook something else...

Want a whip?  We have a whip!

Spoiler

Can't find it anymore T_T but there is a recording of a player taking out AFW with a whip using Wes...

I mean basically anything Wanda can do with a whip anyone else can with tail o 3 cats, it just takes them longer.

 

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Ornery beefalo scratches this itch for me. Idk if anyone has brought up beefalo yet in this thread but theyre a really refreshing way to approach combat i think.

saddles, domestication proces, special healing food which is gonna get more interesting with the new treats, the fact that ur weapon is a very precious living mob that cant be revived, having to feed ornery before u can mount it and all the other beef quirks make the fighting part of the game a lot more interesting to me. 

Practical Rain Rituals has also introduced the possibility to play with morning star as ur main weapon while u deal with the constant creeping wetness, sanity cost of the book and goat horn gathering. An interesting change of pace. 

Bramble Husk (Wormwood in general) and WX electric circuits are also two ways to approach combat in an unconventional way. 

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On 10/12/2022 at 1:51 PM, Guille6785 said:

worth pointing out that if you think combat is too simple because it's "count x hits and then press a button" well then I hate to break it to you but a dodge roll or parry wouldn't change anything because you'd still have to count hits and press a button, the only difference would be that now you don't even have to move so it's even more braindead than before

like shosuko said, any new mechanic that gets added will instantly be learnt by all the players with thousands of hours, the game will go back to being easy as hell and nothing will have changed 2 weeks later

I mean.. dodging/damage negation mechanics have existed in Don't Starve for a very long time. To name a few:

  • The Snurtle shell armor. You can hide in it at the last second of an attack to completely absorb damage, skip the hiding animation, and continue hitting something.  It has so much durability that it can suffer a beating,and be used to avoid damage for a very long time, without ever kiting, and it's literally just timing a button press with some weird and otherwise mediocre armor (it only has 60% natural damage negation without hiding). Really fun way I mix up combat every now and then.
  • The Lazy Explorer. While not conventional for constant use, is very good for quickly escaping dangerous situations, and nigh essential for the AFW fight.
  • With the DST-exclusive characters, Wortox's hop can work as a psuedo-permanent dodge, only limited by his souls (and recently with the Soul Echo mechanic is actually encouraged to be used like this, now) and most people know by now how easy it is for him to amass these and use them for whatever he wants, to include dodging. Wanda's Backstep watch works a similar way and is infinite use.

I already mentioned Wheeler, but I never once felt her dodging was brainless either, nor is it for the other characters I mentioned. There's no coincidence these characters are picked by veteran players who enjoy fighting but wanted something different than the raw damage/defense of Wolfgang or Wigfrid. They're far from bored of those mechanics as the poll I linked in my post suggested as well.

On 10/12/2022 at 4:15 PM, Ohan said:

Ornery beefalo scratches this itch for me. Idk if anyone has brought up beefalo yet in this thread but theyre a really refreshing way to approach combat i think.

saddles, domestication proces, special healing food which is gonna get more interesting with the new treats, the fact that ur weapon is a very precious living mob that cant be revived, having to feed ornery before u can mount it and all the other beef quirks make the fighting part of the game a lot more interesting to me. 

Practical Rain Rituals has also introduced the possibility to play with morning star as ur main weapon while u deal with the constant creeping wetness, sanity cost of the book and goat horn gathering. An interesting change of pace. 

Bramble Husk (Wormwood in general) and WX electric circuits are also two ways to approach combat in an unconventional way. 

Same here, ornery beefalo taming is my go-to 90% of the time. Throwing a battle-hardened 10-ton animal at a boss or group of mobs after hours of back-breaking training for it is one of DST's greatest, non-character specific playstyles for me. The ritual rain method you mentioned is also viable, but kind of circle back to my main complaint of utilizing raw damage options that still rely on the same combat meta.

I have to say that I once saw a Wortox solo Bee Queen with several bramble husks a long time ago, and it is still to this day the most amusing and unique way I've seen anyone fight a boss. Living armor shooting the crap out of her adds that he processed into raw HP for several minutes was hilarious. Wx's new electrocution circuit may have similar niche uses I haven't seen yet, but I agree that these are cool options.

At the end of the day, I understood most of the replier's takes for why combat shouldn't get too complicated or focused on in this game, but it does bother me how comfortable everyone is with what I perceive as a stagnation in this game. Maybe it's not that much of an issue after all and I just need a break, which I'm fine to admitting.

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Yes, the combat is one is one of the top contenders for worst (simple) combat you can find in the most popular and successful survival games out there (though every other popular and successful survival game I played had much more engaging combat so dst is probably the #1 worst combat).

Simple combat =  hold F / click on an enemy till it dies hold f then every 2-3 seconds hold wasd for .25 to 1 sec then repeat. That is not really engaging or fun and it gets stale super fast if you play this game for a meaningful amount of time. i did play games with simple combat such as minecraft and its combat feels a lot more fun because it has knockback, critical hits, jumping, sprinting, the player isn't glued to the ground, ect.

 

There needs to be more actions that players can preform 

  • a dodge roll or a small dash forward with short invincibility frames (telepooping ~= dodging)
  • shields capable of blocking attacks hitting your front while allowing the player to still slowly move around (skeleton armor ~= shield)
  • sprinting (there is no need for a stamina bar, just make hunger drain faster) (speed boosting items ~= sprinting)
  • special weapon based attacks like the forge had
  • proper ranged weapons (bow and arrow) with manual aiming instead of the current aimbot aiming
  • different weapon types having different attacks such as a spear doing piercing strike which can hit enemies behind other enemies, hammers having slower but beefy attacks which can knockback enemies or keep them in hitstun longer, swords hitting multiple close enemies, axes being able to be thrown, ect.
  • throwing poop at your enemies to blind them

those are just some examples

also this is my personal beliefs and opinion which i need to stay or otherwise some people might pick apart what i say to say how it would ruin dst and the game is combat is mona lisa perfection rn and attack me so dont ty, peace.

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2 hours ago, . . . said:

Yes, the combat is one is one of the top contenders for worst (simple) combat you can find in the most popular and successful survival games out there (though every other popular and successful survival game I played had much more engaging combat so dst is probably the #1 worst combat).

Simple combat =  hold F / click on an enemy till it dies hold f then every 2-3 seconds hold wasd for .25 to 1 sec then repeat. That is not really engaging or fun and it gets stale super fast if you play this game for a meaningful amount of time. i did play games with simple combat such as minecraft and its combat feels a lot more fun because it has knockback, critical hits, jumping, sprinting, the player isn't glued to the ground, ect.

for me is the opposite. I have tried games like valheim, terraria, core keeper, zomboid, etc and dst combat is funnier or equal to some of them. Some games like valheim have fancy actions but become boring for how the progression works, all the roll or blocking you add is nothing when you can spam atacks on weak enemies. knockback brings this problem like in terraria where you are safe as long you keep your enemies back by spaming atack or where ranged combat is dumb in most scenarios (same in dst but atleast is expensive to compensate instead of nearly free).

what dst has are enemies with huge damage, armor that might not be equiped and dont last forever and stunlock which is a very interesting mechanic that, imo,. beats any fancy mechanic to cover a lame, poor or umbalanced combat.

also, dst characters arent warriors, mage or rogues. They are simply humans so really fits to have a children or a mature scientific hitting in a pathetic way with a rock tied to a stick instead of a gigachad warrior lvl69 rolling arround and giving a critical hit in the back of a bemoth 

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1 hour ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

They are simply humans so really fits to have a children or a mature scientific hitting in a pathetic way with a rock tied to a stick instead of a gigachad warrior lvl69 rolling arround and giving a critical hit in the back of a bemoth 

^and because someone will inevitably bring it up everytime something like this is said: yeah, DST is not supposed to be realistic, but realism =/= immersion

realism = trying to follow the rules of our world (which dst obviously doesn't)

immersion = staying consistent with the rules that the game universe sets for itself (literal kids suddenly becoming dark souls warriors and jumping into the air with a hammer like in forge would be immersion breaking because we're told that these are helpless survivors just barely managing to stay alive)

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The alarming clock is considered a great weapon not because the range is unique, but because it makes long, tedious fights a breeze where the enemy, and bosses especially, will not be able to attack anywhere near as frequently. Couple that with high damage output and you have yourself a meta. It boils down the combat more, but the intricacies of engaging with a regular weapon combat, like dark sword become more tedious due to the high health pools of many bosses. To make combat more interesting, you would need to look at Forge, as you mentioned, but whips in terms of range do the exact opposite.

As for the mechanic, sure, but if I'm holding a weapon, I expect it to be usable as a damage dealer unit primarily. Secondary weapon usage just doesn't feel right when I have multiple head slot and especially body slot items to exchange during combat already. But primarily because I also have to exchange the weapon with the walking cane all the time, and because of a bug, I have to hold it under a cursor, otherwise spam-left clicking it in inventory will register item placement incorrectly due to late updating, something that isn't an issue in single player. There are some aggro issues to iron out with bosses anyway, otherwise this mechanic doesn't mean much, I would much rather just kill the boss or clear a horde of mobs and if need be, just run away a bit to get my bearings and heal up or whatever is needed to continue clearing.

But let's also go out of the box of combat too. As you mentioned, survival isn't necessarily about combat. If anything, there is way too much necessity for it in the game already. Because the combat existed as it did and was so prevalent, it attracted a lot of people who mostly enjoy the game primarily for the combat and the loot that it yields. Making magic and ranged weaponry much like in forge, are also much better ways to improve the combat system. Traps and defence systems would be more in line with a survival game, to be fair. There is also this method.

But another, bigger issue I think is that combat is too prevalent. There can be more to this game than just fighting bosses with melee weapons for hours on end. Before RoG DLC, you could never even think of that being the thing to do in this game, you only had, what we would now consider mini bosses (tree guard and spider queen), deerclops and the ancient guardian. That's it. The game just took too much of a Dark Souls turn instead of focusing on other things that made up the survival, exploration and the horror gameplay aspects and atmosphere interesting. The recent update made something new, the drama play. Though as far as I can tell, that gives you nothing of value besides the story, no progress or valuable items. It's just there if you want to engage in it? I will give some feedback on that later once I explore it more, there is more that you could get out of doing the play other than to just find out more about the story through emotes and wordplay.

On 10/11/2022 at 10:48 PM, Trevindo said:

Does Wanda have healing limitation? lol I think you have to say this to Wanda lovers who make more than 5 healing clocks, although some of them find only 3 enough.

On 10/11/2022 at 10:53 PM, ArubaroBeefalo said:

yes, she has healing limitation since cant heal by spamming 234242 tomatoes, cant heal while getting damage and the healing can stop if she receive damage while the clock is going backwards. Also, 5 healing clocks = 5 slots to heal just 100 hp with cooldown while 1 slot of piergies heal 1600 without cooldowns. If someone needs 3 clocks (imagine 5) means that they will die a lot. Idk what kind of "wanda lovers" did you meet..

I have beaten every boss as Wanda with only 2 clocks since I rarely take damage and I stack up on thulecite crowns. Because the cooldown resets, that gives an infinite healing pool over time. If anything, at my juncture, the clock healing is better than regular healing, I don't have to prep healing food at all at any point in the game.

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4 hours ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

I have tried games like valheim, terraria, core keeper, zomboid, etc and dst combat is funnier or equal to some of them.

i played all of those games too

valheim is a very clunky unpolished game, i would even say its combat is much worse than dst just because the game is so clunky its not even fun to play the game at all

core keeper is a small neat game but that's all it is, the combat in that game is very simple and almost the same as dst with the only difference is you have to actually aim attacks (including projectile shots) because there's no aimbot attacking system like in dst and there's also some dash action and a few different weapons which work differently so it makes it like a little bit more engaging and fun than dst but still it's still boring

i can't really talk about terraria because i didn't play it much but i know it has a lot of bullet hell combat which is very engaging and can be intense i seen calamity boss videos and it looks real crazy and fun

zomboid has a pretty engaging combat to me because the player has limited vision, can sprint, push zombies down, get swarmed by zombies at times, sneak and stealth kill zombie, has to avoid objects or can trip, have to be wary of your surroundings, can fight with different weapons (spear, axe, knife), ect. it engages the player a lot its very fun and intense combat.

dst is combat honestly on the MOB side it is not too bad for CERTAIN mobs like celestial champion, ancient fuelweaver, queen bee, klaus, ect. and some basic mobs just have 1 attack is completely fine to me too and can still be fun fighting a bunch of spiders which all they do is follow and bite you. the problem with dst combat to me is unlike actually all the other aforementioned games is the PLAYER has barely any engaging actions they can do to make combat more fun. combat being fun is completely reliant on the mobs having complex attacks to keep engaging the player and keeping the fight fun because all the player is limited to is holding an attack button which then the game auto-walks up to an enemy and whacks them and then you walk away and you repeat this process multiple times there is no special thing you can do to mix up the combat and feel good about yourself or feel like you did something cool it's just walk, hit, walk, hit, walk, hit.

and because obviously all mobs can't have engaging complex attacks and attack patterns like those raid bosses they will only do a single thing usually and when you couple that with the player only being able to walk, hit, walk, hit, it starts eating away your sanity after you do that for hours and hours and hours after playing for few hundred hours.. idk it's just my opinion and i lost my sanity to dst a long time ago

 

5 hours ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

also, dst characters arent warriors, mage or rogues. They are simply humans so really fits to have a children or a mature scientific hitting in a pathetic way with a rock tied to a stick instead of a gigachad warrior lvl69 rolling arround and giving a critical hit in the back of a bemoth 

anyone put in a survival situation can learn to run from danger (sprint), get adrenaline pumped in them in a fight to take a swift step to avoid a hit that could have killed them (dodge/sidestep/backstep.. when i say dodge i dont mean a dark souls dodge roll lmao), and yes in desperate times they may gamble their life and go for a critical blow to the head or another vital organ with all their strength to end their foe (critical hit).

all humans are capable of this unless they are too old or too young and since all the dst characters are capable of fighting then they are capable of doing such actions as well, you shouldn't forget humans evolved from apes we are animals too with instincts we aren't all just some creatures only capable of talking, eating, and sitting on our butts and using smartphone lol

all those action can be done by walter to wickerbottom and perfectly believable as long as they don't make the animation too goofy (the awkward punch animation they made) or over the top (dark souls dodge roll) it would look great and best of all it would be fun for gameplay

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Perhaps Klei could look at monster hunter for some improvements to combat since that game is all about just killing large mobs with a long time to kill.

Status effects, food buffs, traps, knockdowns, knockback, choreographed "special" moves, different weapon "goals" or attributes, stuns.

Right now combat is either you're in the rhythm or you're not. Mobs will just walk straight at you never stopping or letting players recollect themselves they either constantly whiff you if you runaway straight or always get a hit in (dragonfly).  If they have a choreographed attack (ancient guardian) it tends to leave easy openings for even the worst players to can catch on to get a couple of hits. If its attack has directional AoE (deerclops) it leads to better group and combat since the less experienced can aim for the back/sides while it's distracted with less fear of getting hit it also leads to better kiting options since you can move side to side instead of always running away.

I think the main issue is the way mobs attack in general since every attack is aimed directly at an entity there isn't much option for "maneuvering" instead of just stepping back a few steps since most mobs can't move and attack at the same time but they can do a complete 180 in a millisecond if you gain their agro whilst they're attacking. 

For example I don't think a jumping warrior spider can "miss" what it's targeting and still hit another entity since it isn't targeting that one.

Unlike the rook which does AoE damage as it runs but still stops once it hits a mob.

Spoiler

Actually I think rook mobs need their charge move reworked. It shouldn't stop once it hits an enemy enless it was a direct impact it should bulldoze through mobs like it does trees possibly slowing down per entity or dealing less damage so that way it's AoE potential is better and so it doesn't look as sad getting swarmed by spiders.

 

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