feedback Wickerbottom Lacks an "Active" Perk

[lakhnish]

I think Wickerbottom lacks a "active" perk, for lack of a better term.

What I mean by that is that there are aspects to characters that are almost always a part of them, whether it be a downside or are their perks.

• Warly can only eat crockpot meals.
• Wolfgang is always managing mightiness.
• Wig' only eats meat and whenever she's fighting, she's gets her vampirism and innate armor.
• Wortox gets half values from food, heavily encouraging the consumption of souls.
• WX is (almost) always managing modules.

These are just some examples to give an idea of what I'm trying to say.

With Wickerbottom, you're not going to always be reading books, and the no-sleep clause and no-spoiled food clause really don't fill in that "active" perk aspect that I'm trying to describe.

They're not something you are going to run into often, making them like they're an "inactive" perk, unlike the other aspects I've described above which are forced or heavily encouraged, which makes them "active" perks.

[maxwell_winters]

I get what you're talking about. I'd love to see something like that, too. But it's too late to add it now because it might alienate a part of her player base. 

[lakhnish]

2 minutes ago, maxwell_winters said:

I get what you're talking about. I'd love to see something like that, too. But it's too late to add it now because it might alienate a part of her player base. 

If Wolfgang can get two reworks, I think they can keep on working on this aspect of Wickerbottom

[BezKa]

Wickerbottom should be averse to fire after the library burnt down. Lose sanity every time uncontained fire is started, whether it's torch or a campfire (not fire pit tho since that is safe) but most importantly wildfire. Even more sanity loss if she has books anywhere near.

I'm mostly joking but I do agree she could have something more.

[maxwell_winters]

Just now, lakhnish said:

If Wolfgang can get two reworks, I think they can keep on working on this aspect of Wickerbottom

I don't even know what I would add. I had an idea of losing sanity from the noise but that doesn't sound interesting enough.

[oregu]

Something more unique to the character that can always apply to more constantly? The science perk doesn't count?
I was thinking something related to crafting. Like she knows how to be efficient enough at crafting to skip the refine stage. That sounds like something that would rather be put into Winona though. I was also thinking she could 'teach' recipes to other survivors (either let her make blueprints to recipes or let others use her as a 'station' and when the player learns, they both get a sanity boost). She does seem to enjoy handing her knowledge onto others.

[Wonz]

Same as winona and warly. This what winona has currently is unnoticeable. Warly is worse wilson so that's why they're strongly switchable kind of character.

[lakhnish]

16 minutes ago, oregu said:

Something more unique to the character that can always apply to more constantly? The science perk doesn't count?

Something more constantly, yes.

The science perk doesn't count imo since that falls out use once you've gotten a science machine (which is easy to get since the Mosaic biome is 99& of the time close to spawn) and just allows for a disposable alchemy engine, which again becomes moot once you've placed down the Alchemy Engine (or use the Encyclopedia book). 

Keep in mind that it's only one book too and that none of her books really fill in that constantly applied aspect I tried describing above.

[oregu]

Just now, lakhnish said:

Something more constantly, yes.

The science perk doesn't count imo since that falls out use once you've gotten a science machine (which is easy to get since the Mosaic biome is 99& of the time close to spawn) and just allows for a disposable alchemy engine, which again becomes moot once you've placed down the Alchemy Engine (or use the Encyclopedia book). 

Keep in mind that it's only one book too and that none of her books really fill in that constantly applied aspect I tried describing above.

Ah, but the science machine lets you use it as an alchemy engine. Before the update if i was inclined I would carry a science machine precrafted as a makeshift Alchemy tier and hammer it again when I was done.

[Datanon]

she could get a cool sanity aura or performance buff once she gets a pet/critter. it is theorized that she has a cat if i remember correctly...

[Sapientis]

So are you actually suggesting the Book Meter?

[Capybara007]

Just now, Sapientis said:

So are you actually suggesting the Book Meter?

lakhnish is suggesting wickerbottom to be a little bit more than books

if you take the alarming clock from wanda for example, she still can use the backstep watch, fast traveling, infinite revival for teammates and aging mechanics

if you take the books from wickerbottom, she is wilson with some downsides that nobody will notice

[Ohan]

She got 11 new books many of which are suited for everyday/regular use unlike most of her old ones.

Like bees, arachno, temperature, rain, pyrokinetics and lux. Of her old ones i regularly use sleepy time stories too and ive heard of other wicker players using on tentacles as mobile hound defense. 

If ur counting wx and wolf as having active perks then wicker has it too imo. I dont play wx but i definitely read books more frequently than ive seen streamers switch circuits. And she has to manage her sanity similar to how wolfgang has to manage mightiness. 

As wicker you are heavily encouraged to use ur books as much as u can and especially now with the bookcase. 

I get where ur coming from but i genuinely dont think theres space left in her character for some new fundamental thing. People throw the “should be more than books” out there but nobody puts forth any concrete proposal cuz theres no space left.

The focus imo should be on making her books as good as possible so shes incentivised to use them as often/actively as possible.

tEiN is still as useless as ever and arachno doesnt slow down big lunge movements and pyro could use a bigger range, for starters. 

The way i see it wicker’s ‘active perk’ is the crafting of her *many* books including several copies of the same one, managing their durability with the bookcase and managing her sanity from frequent reading.

You could add setting up and managing certain farms which are required to enable some of her books to this too. 

6 minutes ago, Capybara007 said:

f you take the alarming clock from wanda for example, she still can use the backstep watch, fast traveling, infinite revival for teammates and aging mechanics

if you take the books from wickerbottom, she is wilson with some downsides that nobody will notice

But dont u see how in this hypothetical u only removed one of wanda’s watches but all of wickerbottoms books to prove ur point?  

and who exactly is taking them away and why? Thats like theorizing what would happen to wendy if u took abigail away.. what is the point of this?

The way i see it theres no point in dwelling on what would be left if u take wickers books or wandas watches or warlys dishes or wendys abigail away because none of those things are ever going to happen. 

[Wonz]

1 hour ago, lakhnish said:

Something more constantly, yes.

The science perk doesn't count imo since that falls out use once you've gotten a science machine (which is easy to get since the Mosaic biome is 99& of the time close to spawn) and just allows for a disposable alchemy engine, which again becomes moot once you've placed down the Alchemy Engine (or use the Encyclopedia book). 

Keep in mind that it's only one book too and that none of her books really fill in that constantly applied aspect I tried describing above.

Imo everyone should have something for endgame. Sad how her active perk could go unneeded day 1.

[lakhnish]

28 minutes ago, Ohan said:

I get where ur coming from but i genuinely dont think theres space left in her character for some new fundamental thing. People throw the “should be more than books” out there but nobody puts forth any concrete proposal cuz theres no space left.

The focus imo should be on making her books as good as possible so shes incentivised to use them as often/actively as possible.

I do agree with what's written in bold, but Klei didn't do that with this rework and ultimately, I think it boils down to the book-reading nature of how Wickerbottom is compared to other characters.

I may not have any solutions, but that doesn't mean that a problem doesn't exist :<

[LitulLola]

Since she's all about knowledge and magic maybe she could craft magic tier (shadow manipulator) items at a cheaper cost? She has the knowledge to be more efficient with the recipes. This may help with the living log situation?

[Sapientis]

28 minutes ago, Capybara007 said:

lakhnish is suggesting wickerbottom to be a little bit more than books

if you take the alarming clock from wanda for example, she still can use the backstep watch, fast traveling, infinite revival for teammates and aging mechanics

if you take the books from wickerbottom, she is wilson with some downsides that nobody will notice

I get it, my comment was a joke mostly. Though I could see her Sanity meter work somehow similarly to a Book Meter, but I'll expand that idea later.

Also as @Ohan pointed out if you take the clocks from Wanda she is Wilson who cannot heal and will die in 3.5 days.

But I know exactly what @lakhnish means, Wickerbottom gameplay still feels blunt as heck and no "OP" Book can't change it. I played her a lot back in the day, she was very powerful but somehow playing her was just uninteresting. Now she is even more powerful, her books can affect the whole world, alter physics and all and she still lacks that little something... Something that would make the player want to play her.

16 minutes ago, Ohan said:

She got 11 new books many of which are suited for everyday/regular use unlike most of her old ones.

Like bees, arachno, temperature, rain, pyrokinetics and lux. Of her old ones i regularly use sleepy time stories too and ive heard of other wicker players using on tentacles as mobile hound defense. 

If ur counting wx and wolf as having active perks then wicker has it too imo. I dont play wx but i definitely read books more frequently than ive seen streamers switch circuits. And she has to manage her sanity similar to how wolfgang has to manage mightiness. 

As wicker you are heavily encouraged to use ur books as much as u can and especially now with the bookcase. 

I get where ur coming from but i genuinely dont think theres space left in her character for some new fundamental thing. People throw the “should be more than books” out there but nobody puts forth any concrete proposal cuz theres no space left.

The focus imo should be on making her books as good as possible so shes incentivised to use them as often/actively as possible.

Yes, many of the new books are very good (I personally love Apicultural Notes because of its selfish summoner vibe). The problem is that a great part of them are extremely situational and you cannot possibly carry all of them with you because they take too much inventory slots and have to be kept in the Bookcase to restore their durability, unless you swim in Papyrus for some reason.

On top of that they drain a lot of sanity with each use, which normally isn't a problem, but because of Wickerbottom's massive 250 maximum sanity restoring that is a much bigger issue than it is for other characters. She also doesn't have any special way to restore it.

There have been a lot of jokes about her so called Book Meter (hence my joke) but the problem is her Sanity IS in fact her Book Meter on top of just being her Sanity meter and that borns many issues. Low Sanity just isn't fun, playing on constant low Sanity Color Cubes isn't fun, restoring Sanity all the time isn't fun, Shadow Creatures are a bad and lazy drawback to a charakter.

Mentioning Wolfgang actually brings a great analogy: his Hunger used to be his Mightiness Meter, just as Sanity is Wicker's Book Meter, both when empty will promptly try to lower one's Health, but Hunger is inadequately easier to restore and yet Wolfgang's Mightiness Meter has been separated from his Hunger meanwhile Wicker's "Book Meter" remains hidden in her Sanity Meter.

The issue of Sanity and using Books are linked means you have to either sacrifice time to restore Sanity quickly at will, deal with possible Shadow Creatures because of using Books in an emergency or just don't use Books at all. Sadly the last one is sometimes the easiest/least tedious.

WX-78 plugs a circuit - gets pure benefits, Wolfgang pumps his bicep - gets pure benefit, meanwhile Wickerbottom uses her Book and suddenly has to explain to some Terrorbeaks why she wants to remain at her current health.

Wigfrid also uses songs, but they're much more versatile, less powerful, sure, but they have no drawbacks, they don't even have durability at all - again pure benefit.

 

In my opinion if her Sanity remains linked with her "Book Meter" she must have a way to somehow restore it.
 

Spoiler

A Favorite Book on a 2 minute cooldown that would restore 20 Sanity?
Wanda's eyes grow to the size of her Ageless Watches.

I don't know... But I feel like I suggested something like that...

[Mysterious box]

2 hours ago, Capybara007 said:

lakhnish is suggesting wickerbottom to be a little bit more than books

if you take the alarming clock from wanda for example, she still can use the backstep watch, fast traveling, infinite revival for teammates and aging mechanics

if you take the books from wickerbottom, she is wilson with some downsides that nobody will notice

While I get your point techincally if you take the clock from Wanda she's a poisoned Wilson(all her crafts are clocks)

[oregu]

Just now, Mysterious box said:

While I get your point techincally if you take the clock from Wanda she's a poisoned Wilson(all her crafts are clocks)

No you have clockmaker's tools which has revolutionary uses outside clocks. Can be craft/deconned to duplicate twigs.

[Mysterious box]

1 minute ago, oregu said:

Can be craft/deconned to duplicate twigs.

News to me could you explain?

[oregu]

Just now, Mysterious box said:

News to me could you explain?

Sure. Construction amulet makes it cost two twigs then you can decon it for a net gain of 1 twigs. It's sick.

[Mysterious box]

1 minute ago, oregu said:

Sure. Construction amulet makes it cost two twigs then you can decon it for a net gain of 1 twigs. It's sick.

Next meta exposed waiting for nerfs!

[Cheggf]

How you gonna say wx has an active perk but not Wickerbottom? WX runs around with permanent passive effects, Wickerbottom has a variety of books she chooses when to use and has a cost to reading them.

[Mantispidae]

Shes mostly fine IMO. She certainly could be fine-tuned and isn't perfect by any means, but not every character needs to be physically unique to play as long as the character themselves offers some sort of special perk.

Wickerbottom's main perk is her books, and she doesn't actually have the problem Winona and Warly have because they are (for the most part) limited to her use. Wurt and Maxwell have nice little mechanics that use them but since they are less effective (or in Wurt's case a completely different effect), the books stay something special to her rather than making something that can be "taken" from her and put on other characters the same way catapult operation or Warly foods can.

DST has a big cast and they should mix and match what kind of things every character offers. Wickerbottom's mechanics are fairly vanilla but give a player quite a bit to toy with in craftables. It won't be everyones cup of tea but some people like things more simple and equipment based mechanics are still valid mechanics as long as the player actually engages with them. I can't really think of any ways interestingly manipulate her base person that wouldn't feel weird for a librarian or pointlessly mucking her up for the sake of complexity.