[Opinion] Iridescent Gems and "Balance "

[Wumpair]

In the last couple of days people have been heavily debating weather an Iridescent Gem [IG] is a too high cost for infinite full moon.

Being a member of this community (although not a very active one), I wanted to present my opinion. Take it with a pinch of salt ofc.

A little bit on Balance

"Balance" - The thing we can't figure out quite well... In a game where you can get bundling wraps, you usually get from killing Bee-queen, for free by enabling hollow nights and have your food never spoiled; a game where we can change to Warly via the portal to cook insane recipes, change then to Wolfgang/Wanda and kill bosses in seconds; a game where no-matter what new food Klei ads, we all will eat meatballs+pirogi 90% of the time... The idea of "Balance" sounds ridiculous. 

Let me remind you that DST is mainly a sand box game; it doesn't have too challenging bosses, or doesn't have harsh permanent death mechanics. Starting from there, the idea of infinite light to ease the experience of base-building and survival is indeed a pilling. But how early should we be given this privilege?

Is the change to Iridescent Gems [IG] costly?

I personally don't see the change to the IG that significant, due to the 2 archive IG - You can easily "borrow" them early game and enjoy infinite light early on. Some people are afraid of griffin potential, in here I am afraid I am not an expert. Others, claim that the resources needed to restore the IR are too costly (Are they?): Living logs can be farmed by Wormwood/Killing Mush-gnomes that are close to the archives, yellow gems don't have any use aside from the star-caller and the yellow amulet (You need max. 1 per player since it's refulable to use it in boss fights as the Shadow pieces, the guardian or Claus 2nd phase for speed), and at least I don't really need a ton of them (I need them only to light up boss arenas, and sometimes in winter I prefer to explore with a staff and a thermal stone), but I guess some people use them more regularly...

The real problem with the IG

The problem I do see with the current recipe, is that it is an illusion of being challenging - No one stops you from taking the archive IG early on; some people suggested making it impossible to take them, but I think that is just poor game design.

If you think the reward of having infinite full moons is too high to be given away early game, the IG is not a solution! The only difference it does make, is that it requires you to go some cave exploring.

My preferred solution:

Here is the middle ground I see would fit best: Make the recipe use Distilled Knowledge [DK] instead of an IG.

*Disclaimer: The idea is not mine, it's been on the forums for some time, but I don't quite know who first suggested it*

"This makes getting the book too easy", I hear you argue, no it is not:

To get the DK, you first need to activate the archives, and to do so, you need... Yes, an IG!

However, by having the DK in the recipe, you would solve the issue of having the two free IG, making the player work for the reward more (that's your main argument why the IG is better, right?). You can't just go to the Archives and get some DK on day 1, the fountains are inactive until you activate them; and then you would have the "hazard" of fighting the robots in there to claim the reward

At the same time, using a DK would compromise the issues that star-caller lovers have, with having to waste valuable magic stuffs for a book (you would only need to deconstruct one to activate the archives).

But wouldn't this cheapen the recipe too much, after all you can get infinite number of DK for no cost once Archives are active?

I don't think so, you only need 3 books max. any way to have full moons all the time, the difference would only be in that for IG you need to invest some more time into getting yellow gems and living logs to get to the maximum; I don't see this that much. If for instance the book had less uses (extreme case 1), then of course we could make a point in here; but otherwise it seems reasonable to me.

Final thoughts:

As I said, DST is not balance, so I think in the end of the day it is not that important what the book is made of. However, if the recipe changes from an IG into a DK, I think it will justify more the idea of putting effort into getting a reward. But then, if you want to have infinite light you have WX (Who also kinda has infinite healing from gears).

I would live to hear what you guys think - Is a DK a better choice?

Do you think it would be more challenging (Since it actually forces players to do the moon-storm event)? Or it is more cheap (Since after the first book-craft the next ones become cheaper)? 

Remember, we all want DST to be a great game, and at the end of the day Klei releases this stuff for free which is just unbelievable!

Ok, I am going back to being a silent observer, see ya! :)

[Ohan]

53 minutes ago, Wumpair said:

I would love to hear what you guys think - Is a DK a better choice?

It definitely is imo and also the more interesting choice if you take Wickerbottom’s examination quote for the grimoire into account. 

53 minutes ago, Wumpair said:

Do you think it would be more challenging (Since it actually forces players to do the moon-storm event)?

Definitely. (I think u meant moon base event). An opal for each book is just way too grindy and introduces too many problems with the 2 free ones up for grabs in the archives in mind. 

Needing to make your own moon caller on a natural full moon and travel to the archives to activate it for a distilled knowledge is much more of interesting progression/quest leading up to the grimoire than stealing the two free opals and then using the grimoire to grind 3 moon base events to activate the Archives when u want to do the game’s main storyline lol. 

[Faintly Macabre]

56 minutes ago, Wumpair said:

"Balance" - The thing we can't figure out quite well... In a game where you can get bundling wraps, you usually get from killing Bee-queen, for free by enabling hollow nights and have your food never spoiled; a game where we can change to Warly via the portal to cook insane recipes, change then to Wolfgang/Wanda and kill bosses in seconds; a game where no-matter what new food Klei ads, we all will eat meatballs+pirogi 90% of the time... The idea of "Balance" sounds ridiculous. 

All the rest of your argument aside, this isn't going to win you any points with people who all feel those things were bad balance decisions, too.

[Copyafriend]

7 minutes ago, Faintly Macabre said:

All the rest of your argument aside, this isn't going to win you any points with people who all feel those things were bad balance decisions, too.

I didnt realize opinions are on a point based system on these forums i’ll be more careful in the future

[Faintly Macabre]

4 minutes ago, Copyafriend said:

I didnt realize opinions are on a point based system on these forums i’ll be more careful in the future

It's an expression.

[Jaisac HF]

I don't think it's such a bad idea, at least it solves the problem of stolen gems,
but personally I would rather it be a price in the middle of the two extremes between moon rocks and gems.

maybe keep the ingredients from the moon island and trade the gem for something of the same difficulty to obtain as the items of the island

allowing use of the book is just beginning to be useful for farming

 

[xxXolot]

2 hours ago, Wumpair said:

Here is the middle ground I see would fit best: Make the recipe use Distilled Knowledge [DK] instead of an IG.

*Disclaimer: The idea is not mine, it's been on the forums for some time, but I don't quite know who first suggested it*

Astral Detector can also be used in lieu of DK too if:

• DK felt a bit awkward due to it being an encrypted special blueprint for other specific item.
• Astral Detector can be made anywhere after learning recipe, while to get DK you must go to Archive again
• Actually made with a Thulecite and a Moonrocks so it actually cost something, if that's important anyway

It might also feel like it fit lore more if 2 out of 3 DK blueprint being unrelated to moon feels a bit off.

 

By the way I think this DK idea originally came from @Mysterious box, @Noaa and @Ohan.

[Noaa]

Distilled Knowledge would be fun as an ingredient. And flavorful. 

[Notecja]

5 hours ago, Wumpair said:

The problem I do see with the current recipe, is that it is an illusion of being challenging - No one stops you from taking the archive IG early on; some people suggested making it impossible to take them, but I think that is just poor game design.

The Moon Caller Staff event is actually pretty easy - place some walls and stautes and you get easy cheese (hounds and pigs pathfinding derps with statues), prepare hambat and some armour for easy pigskins (actually I used to do it with mooseWoodie, so I didn't care too much for pigskins and lost most of them), meat delivery and moonrock delivery. It never illusioned me to be challenging. I just like having use for a IG, as there is no real sink for these. u_u

[Well-met]

something most people seem to disregard is the way a moon book gives you access to farm more opals

only the first craft might be a "challenge"

[Arcwell]

1 hour ago, Notecja said:

The Moon Caller Staff event is actually pretty easy

I agree, I don't think anyone's arguing that. The problem comes with the sheer cost of activating the event. I don't think there's a single character-specific craft that comes anywhere close to the cost of a full starcaller's staff (+ 1 minute of your life on a full moon), certainly not any of Wickerbottom's crafts at least. Now take into account you'd ideally want 2-3 of these as Wickerbottom, the price becomes so much worse.

1 hour ago, Notecja said:

I just like having use for a IG, as there is no real sink for these. u_u

That's fair. I just feel it's unfair that Wickerbottom alone gets saddled with the cost.

1 hour ago, Well-met said:

something most people seem to disregard is the way a moon book gives you access to farm more opals

That argument is brought up a lot actually. It's perfectly valid, but doesn't address how expensive starcaller's staves are.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

5 minutes ago, Arcwell said:

I don't think there's a single character-specific craft that comes anywhere close to the cost of a full starcaller's staff

neither there is a single character perk or item that affects the whole world in the many ways this book does and has potential Infinity uses once crafted

[Arcwell]

3 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

neither there is a single character perk or item that affects the whole world in the many ways this book does and has potential Infinity uses once crafted

 

[ArubaroBeefalo]

16 minutes ago, Arcwell said:

 

yep, for thar i said "many ways"

rain has less uses than full moon even if i consider controlling rain a more poweful perk

edit: wont be against increasing the cost of the rain book, anyways it autorepairs and has bigger impact in the game loop (mitigating 2 seasons, buffing electrical damage in both shards, watering crops, nullifies antlion and frog rains, respawn fireflies in the oasis desert, etc)

[Arcwell]

Just now, ArubaroBeefalo said:

yep, for thar i said "many ways"

rain has less uses than full moon even if i consider controlling rain a more poweful perk

How many ways is "many ways" and why does that even matter over the quality of the actual effect?

Here's a few I can think of for rain in particular:

- Can prevent wetness buildup
- Can stop frog rain
- Can prevent wildfires in summer
- Can turn the oasis sandstorm on and off (and by extension Antlion)
- Lets you turn an umbrella into Pearl in any season (except mid-winter)
- Lets you build wetness on enemies for Warly buffs

[ArubaroBeefalo]

7 minutes ago, Arcwell said:

How many ways is "many ways" and why does that even matter over the quality of the actual effect?

Here's a few I can think of for rain in particular:

- Can prevent wetness buildup
- Can stop frog rain
- Can prevent wildfires in summer
- Can turn the oasis sandstorm on and off (and by extension Antlion)
- Lets you turn an umbrella into Pearl in any season (except mid-winter)
- Lets you build wetness on enemies for Warly buffs

ye, controlling rain is more powerful than controlling the moon but controlling the moon opens a lot of possibilities even those are less impactful. Im not arguing moon vs rain because both book should have high cost since they get infinity uses

controlling the full moon give a lot but any of the uses are gamebreaking as some users claimed:

- giving light in the entire surface server

- farming more moon glass via grotto and moon island (meh if you kill often but more recipes migh come in future updates)

- were pigs (meh unless the players dont relly on thulecite gear)

- fighting shadow pieces more often

- farming via moon rock event (meat, pig skin, moon rock and moon caller staffs)

- farming krampii without the need of set ups to kill birds, just kill glommer every night which also gives goop for waterlogged biome's trees

- woodie forms lasting longer

comparing it with the rain book just shows how the recipe of this one should be higher than 1 umbrella and a watering can which even a new player could craft

[Arcwell]

Just now, ArubaroBeefalo said:

ye, controlling rain is more powerful than controlling the moon but controlling the moon opens a lot of possibilities even those are less impactful. Im not arguing moon vs rain because both book should have high cost since they get infinity uses

controlling the full moon give a lot but any of the uses are gamebreaking as some users claimed:

- giving light in the entire surface server

- farming more moon glass via grotto and moon island (meh if you kill often but more recipes migh come in future updates)

- were pigs (meh unless the players dont relly on thulecite gear)

- fighting shadow pieces more often

- farming via moon rock event (meat, pig skin, moon rock and moon caller staffs)

- farming krampii without the need of set ups to kill birds, just kill glommer every night which also gives goop for waterlogged biome's trees

- woodie forms lasting longer

comparing it with the rain book just shows how the recipe of this one should be higher than 1 umbrella and a watering can which even a new player could craft

We do not live in a timeline where Practical Rain Rituals is nerfed. I know you said at the beginning of that post you're not arguing moon vs. rain, but you are literally doing that with the last line of that post.

Nerfing the Lunar Grimoire recipe was already problematic enough that there's a post on game update 516063 arguing against iridescent gem that has more likes than the update itself, and players have voted 3:1 in favor of changing the recipe again.

All of this going back to the main point: Lunar Grimoire's cost is prohibitively expensive and extremely out of place for any item in this game. It has a lot of uses, sure. So do most of Wickerbottom's books. Part of the fun of playing Wickerbottom is finding all the unique interactions she has with each of her books. Gating that behind iridescent gems, especially seeing as you can just steal them from the archives (causing you to perform moon caller's event multiple times for essentially no benefit afterward), just kills any fun this book has.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

2 minutes ago, Arcwell said:

We do not live in a timeline where Practical Rain Rituals is nerfed. I know you said at the beginning of that post you're not arguing moon vs. rain, but you are literally doing that with the last line of that post.

Nerfing the Lunar Grimoire recipe was already problematic enough that there's a post on game update 516063 arguing against iridescent gem that has more likes than the update itself, and players have voted 3:1 in favor of changing the recipe again.

All of this going back to the main point: Lunar Grimoire's cost is prohibitively expensive and extremely out of place for any item in this game. It has a lot of uses, sure. So do most of Wickerbottom's books. Part of the fun of playing Wickerbottom is finding all the unique interactions she has with each of her books. Gating that behind iridescent gems, especially seeing as you can just steal them from the archives (causing you to perform moon caller's event multiple times for essentially no benefit afterward), just kills any fun this book has.

i even voted yes to that comment but is also true that isnt expensive. Is a infinity durability item that allows you to create more of them without waiting 21 days

[Arcwell]

1 minute ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

i even voted yes to that comment but is also true that isnt expensive. Is a infinity durability item that allows you to create more of them without waiting 21 days

Wigfrid's songs, Wanda's alarming clock, and (for the most part) WX-78's modules are infinite use and nowhere near as expensive.

Lunar Grimoire only sets the time for you to create more iridescent gems, it doesn't pay for the staff itself. 

[ArubaroBeefalo]

3 minutes ago, Arcwell said:

Wigfrid's songs, Wanda's alarming clock, and (for the most part) WX-78's modules are infinite use and nowhere near as expensive.

Lunar Grimoire only sets the time for you to create more iridescent gems, it doesn't pay for the staff itself. 

dont compare controlling the moon to have some hp reg on hit...

im not saying that the moon book has a perfect recipe. My point is that it and the rain book should be way more expensive than most items in the game

[Arcwell]

5 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

My point is that it and the rain book should be way more expensive than most items in the game

Sure, can't argue a difference of opinion. Was trying to defend my own argument, apologies if any of that was too aggressive. 

[Ornge]

What about using a moon-shroom instead of an iridescent gem? Both of these items require you to visit the archives to craft the book, but only one of them is a problem for activating the archives

[Well-met]

3 hours ago, Ornge said:

What about using a moon-shroom instead of an iridescent gem? Both of these items require you to visit the archives to craft the book, but only one of them is a problem for activating the archives

you do not need to visit the archives to obtain a moon-shroom, no

[Spep]

Personally the only problem with the iridescent gem is that if you use the book just one too many times before its fixed your gem is going to disappear into the ether, sp replacing it with something like an astral detector or moon callers a moon callers staff for a book that calls the moon, makes sense to me would alleviate the potential of borrowing one of your archives gems and then fat fingering it into the void.

[Bumber64]

10 hours ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

- fighting shadow pieces more often

???

Don't you mean "never"?