[Opinion] Locking Lunar Grimoire Behind Iridescent Gem Is PERFECT

[goatt]

Edit: Reminder: there are 2 iri gems in archives waiting to be grabbed, free of charge, on day 1. as @Parusoid mentioned under this thread. I learnt about it after writing this post. I'm personally not a fan of it. I wish it's harder to craft lunar boosk than grabbing iri gems from archives.

 

I believe similar effects should have similar costs.

For example

1. Pots. Similar recipe. One is cheaper cuz it's a character's perk.

 

2. Tents. Similar recipe. One is cheaper cuz it's a character's perk.

 

3. Crock pot Foods, have similar max stats constraints. And in general, better food is harder or more costly to make.

Food with 75+ hunger is very good on hunger.

Food with 15+ sanity is very good on sanity.

Food with 40+ hp is very good on hp.

Almost all the best crock pot recipes only excel in 2 of the 3 areas. The only few that excel in all 3 areas are exceptional, such as mandrake soup.

 

4. Lights. Light sources are divided into different categories:

1. tiny, such as crockpot, lightning rod and fingomatic

2. small, such as torch

3. medium, such as lantern, miner's hat, wicker's light books, glow berry, mushlight & glowcap.

4. large, star light, polar light.

5. full screen, moggle, wx's moggle

6. global, natural full moon, mysterious energy, Lunar Grimoire

In the category of 1 to 5, from tiny to full screen, the lights in the same categories have similar cost in general, more or less depends on duration.

But in global light radius, Lunar Grimoire made of moon rocks has completely disrupted this balance.

Lunar Grimoire made of iridescent gem has restored this balance.

 

In comparison:

- Mysterious energy requires: iri gem, pearl quest, crab king, and moving 6 lunar atlars which takes days. Minimum about 60 days of intense play, or 8 hours.

- Lunar Grimoire: iri gem. Minimum 12 days (with teamwork), after first full moon. (it makes sense to require at least 1 full moon to unlock full moon power, excluding iri gems in archive).

The effort AND time required in the 2 tasks above still have significant difference, but it's much more justifiable.

 

I've seen people saying that full moon is not a big deal, and it shouldn't be so expensive.

I disagree!

In real life, luxury such as jewelries and Gucci bags are not a big deal to our survival, but its high price reflects how extraordinary they are in their own sense.

The power to control moon phase is not a survival necessity and is entirely optional. But it's extraordinary and should be luxuriously priced to reflect that.

[maxwell_winters]

12 minutes ago, goatt said:

4. Lights. Light sources are divided into different categories:

1. tiny, such as crockpot, lightning rod and fingomatic

2. small, such as torch

3. medium, such as lantern, miner's hat, wicker's light books, glow berry, mushlight & glowcap.

4. large, star light, polar light.

5. full screen, moggle, wx's moggle

6. global.

One another aspect. You eventually run out of every light sources and have to craft it again or recharge it, no matter how careful you're (the notable exception is glowcap with enlighted shards but those ar 2 boss drops, so come on). But The Lunar Grimoire is rechargable by just waiting. And the recharge isn't even that noticeable because there is absolutely no reason to use the book more than once a day. 

But anyway, prepare to be bashed critisized by people who claim that the entire purpose of Wicker's character is to craft OP items for cheap. 

[Cheggf]

Cc moon is infinite for free, grimoire takes huge chunks of sanity and tethers you to the base since you only get 2 uses out of it. You're right that it's not comparable to other light sources, it is hilariously bad at being a light source. 

[maxwell_winters]

4 minutes ago, Cheggf said:

Cc moon is infinite for free, grimoire takes huge chunks of sanity and tethers you to the base since you only get 2 uses out of it. You're right that it's not comparable to other light sources, it is hilariously bad at being a light source. 

Firstly, 50 sanity is a joke for the queen of crop mass production. Secondly, it's been discussed multiple times that moon storm isn't sunshine and rainbows like you make it out to be. And it's locked behind the Crab King, Pearl's quests and the archives. 

[goatt]

19 minutes ago, Cheggf said:

Cc moon is infinite for free, grimoire takes huge chunks of sanity and tethers you to the base since you only get 2 uses out of it. You're right that it's not comparable to other light sources, it is hilariously bad at being a light source. 

I agree it's a bad light source. But do you want to make it better? For what? So that other mandatory light sources appear to be unnecessary in early game?

It's fair that regular light sources are optional in late game. But they shouldn't be easily made optional in early game. Confronting darkness is one of the most important aspects in early game experience.

I think it's a good idea that Lunar Grimoire remains a bad light source. The book should be discouraged to use regularly as a light source.

[Mike23Ua]

I wouldn’t call it “Perfect” …. I would actually call it the most expensive hard to get “Character Specific” craftable in the entire game.

The first recipe was ridiculously too easy, the reworked recipe is ridiculously too difficult.

Depending on WHEN Klei wants players to be able to access this craft- should help determine what it’s crafting ingredients should be.

Keep in mind that with the original recipe Klei expected us to get this craft super early- but now.. if they do not intended for this to be a much later craft- then the recipe is too difficult.

finding a middle balance between what the crafting ingredients should be and around what point of the game they expect players to reasonably be able to acquire it is Key.

[goatt]

10 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

The first recipe was ridiculously too easy, the reworked recipe is ridiculously too difficult.

I don't think it's too difficult. But it does take a while.

In order to get it, you only need to get living logs, a shallow ruin visit, a moonstone event and chop a lunar tree, that's it. None of which is "too difficult". But it can lock out unexperienced players, which is a good thing.

But again, Wanda's powerful watches also take quite a while to craft.

They might considered the book to be an early item before. But is it really a good idea to make it an early item? Can devs change their mind? I have no idea, I'm just saying.

13 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

finding a middle balance between what the crafting ingredients should be and around what point of the game they expect players to reasonably be able to acquire it is Key.

I think a team of players can get it by day 12. But a solo players can definitely get it done by day 32. What do you personally think of those numbers?

[ADM]

I think we can keep reasoning simpler instead of applying comparisons from a character to another or do maths. I'm tired of reading why the gem is a good or a bad idea when half of what the people reply in the idk how many topics that have been posted now from any side are just lost bullets to fit one's interests making up many random factors. I'm certain you have only good intentions defending your position, @goatt especially since we share the same, but I don't think this sort of presentation achieve anything to justify it by a tier-list sort of scheme knowing it's what's the most argued about.

Anyhow as now I think everything full of sense and much less has been said since yesterday so I suppose it's already decided internally how it's gonna go in the next hotfix, I get the feeling that what will remain out of this was a beautiful attempt but no more.

[maxwell_winters]

23 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

I wouldn’t call it “Perfect” …. I would actually call it the most expensive hard to get “Character Specific” craftable in the entire game.

I agree but the book isn't balanced arong the new recipe. If Klei increased the durability to 5 uses and added the ability to summon the new moon, too, it would probably be the best solution for this extremely problematic book. 

[goatt]

@ADM Thank you. And I'm sorry you feel that way.

To say something about myself, my presence in the forum and my source of reasoning is mainly math and side-by-side comparison within same tiers. Game balance is one of the things that I care the most. My opinions have not been the popular ones most of the time, but I think math and game balance consideration from math is necessary in nurturing good game experience. That's the motivation behind my posting despite unpopular. I just hope it's been read, judged, criticized, discussed, maybe considered. I think math can speak for itself. I'm only presenting them. But I do welcome people to point out my mistakes.

[ADM]

3 minutes ago, goatt said:

To say something about myself, my presence in the forum and my source of reasoning is mainly math and side-by-side comparison within same tiers. Game balance is one of the things that I care the most. My opinions have not been the popular ones most of the time, but I think math and game balance consideration from math is necessary in nurturing good game experience. That's the motivation behind my posting despite unpopular. I just hope it's been read, judged, criticized, discussed, maybe considered. I think math can speak for itself. I'm only presenting them. But I do welcome people to point out my mistakes.

It's pretty much the same for me too, just among the globality of the game change decisions this one can be explained rather simply, as now it's mostly about preferences of how people want to play the game over anything else from what I can see. But I totally see your approach being fair in many other situations

[maxwell_winters]

42 minutes ago, goatt said:

 

To say something about myself, my presence in the forum and my source of reasoning is mainly math and side-by-side comparison within same tiers. Game balance is one of the things that I care the most. My opinions have not been the popular ones most of the time, but I think math and game balance consideration from math is necessary in nurturing good game experience. That's the motivation behind my posting despite unpopular. I just hope it's been read, judged, criticized, discussed, maybe considered. I think math can speak for itself. I'm only presenting them. But I do welcome people to point out my mistakes.

You're doing a great job, in my opinion. Speaking of, what's your opinion on the recipes for Horticulture 2 and Practical Rain? 

[Cheggf]

1 hour ago, goatt said:

But do you want to make it better?

No. It's fine being a bad light source that costs something like moon rocks, moon glass, or moon moth wings. I don't think it needs to be a good light source. 

[h2mk]

2 hours ago, goatt said:

The power to control moon phase is not a survival necessity and is entirely optional. But it's extraordinary and should be luxuriously priced to reflect that.

based post thank you

[goatt]

1 hour ago, ADM said:

just among the globality of the game change decisions this one can be explained rather simply, as now it's mostly about preferences of how people want to play the game over anything else from what I can see.

I also can see that. I see that as a problematic angle of looking at the game.

Players who have formed their preferred play styles, or who have a clear idea how they want to play the game, are all experienced players. It's impossible for new or average players to form a comprehensive opinion of such kind. Reasons of this sort are bad in the sense that it ruins the original early game experience, a big part of which is confronting darkness.

My current stance is against changing early game experience in compromise to just giving veterans a comforting early game nights. It totally makes sense to allow that to happen in late game as a server progression. But currently, they think full moon early game is "not a big deal" and should be allowed at a very cheap price, and that's unreasonable because of the reasons mentioned in the previous paragraph.

In summary, I can understand them and their reasons, but I can't side with them.

39 minutes ago, maxwell_winters said:

You're doing a great job, in my opinion. Speaking of, what's your opinion on the recipes for Horticulture 2 and Practical Rain? 

Thank you.

I think Practical Rain and Horticulture are reasonable in the sense that they are breaking any balance. I don't have a strong opinion when something is within its reasonable range, or out of range by too much.

[-Nick-]

If the recipe is really too costly, keep the moon moth wings, but change the opal to moonglass or moonrocks.

[maxwell_winters]

9 minutes ago, goatt said:

I think Practical Rain and Horticulture are reasonable in the sense that they are breaking any balance. I don't have a strong opinion when something is within its reasonable range, or out of range by too much.

If we talk about newer players, Practical Rain can basically save them from rainy spring and frog rain which are something they definitely need to experience fully, in my opinion. Adding dawn feathers to the recipe would balance it out imo. You don't need the book that much in the first autumn and winter, anyway. 

Horticulture 2 completely ignores the gardening system of the game. If we compare it to Wormwood, he has perks that make this easier but Wicker straight up ignores them with the new book. I don't might it that much, but I would probably add super growth formula to the recipe just for the sake of logic. 

[Arcwell]

3 hours ago, maxwell_winters said:

queen of crop mass production.

Please try it for yourself before you make this claim. I still believe Wormwood is far more efficient at mass-farming and I hope you'll see why:
Math post, sorry ADM.

With ActionQueue Reborn and Snapping Tills, it takes Wormwood roughly 9 seconds to plant 15 seeds. It takes Wickerbottom roughly 45 seconds to hoe and plant 15 seeds (You'd get slower times on both without mods but the difference would be the same). Horti expanded doesn't grow giant crops, that means you need to grow 2.75 the crops you would otherwise. 45 seconds * 2.75 as many crops = 123.75 seconds labor spent. That's nearly 14 times the amount of labor spent vs. Wormwood. Any time spent waiting for crops to grow can and should be spent doing something productive instead.

But what about time spent:
- tending to plants?: Friendly fruit fly solves this.
- adding nutrients?: Giant crop combos solve this.
- watering plants?: Wickerbottom still needs to do this with Horti expanded. 

1 hour ago, maxwell_winters said:

Horticulture 2 completely ignores the gardening system of the game.

You still need to gather and plant seeds, still need to water them, still need to give them a type bonus. She removes the waiting portion of farming, which if you ask me is perfectly reasonably given the amount of effort you still need to put in.

[Sapientis]

2 hours ago, goatt said:

I believe similar effects should have similar costs.

For example

1. Pots. Similar recipe. One is cheaper cuz it's a character's perk.

 

2. Tents. Similar recipe. One is cheaper cuz it's a character's perk.

 

3. Crock pot Foods, have similar max stats constraints. And in general, better food is harder or more costly to make.

Food with 75+ hunger is very good on hunger.

Food with 15+ sanity is very good on sanity.

Food with 40+ hp is very good on sanity.

Almost all the best crock pot recipes only excel in 2 of the 3 areas. The only few that excel in all 3 areas are exceptional, such as mandrake soup.

 

4. Lights. Light sources are divided into different categories:

1. tiny, such as crockpot, lightning rod and fingomatic

2. small, such as torch

3. medium, such as lantern, miner's hat, wicker's light books, glow berry, mushlight & glowcap.

4. large, star light, polar light.

5. full screen, moggle, wx's moggle

6. global, natural full moon, mysterious energy, Lunar Grimoire

5. Teleportation. Teleportation is divided into different categories:

1. already existing in the world linking only two places: Wormholes - reduce sanity, Big Slimy Pits - require to defeat Big Tentacle repeatedly 

2. random: Telelocator Staff - quite costly, massively reduces sanity, summons lightnings possibly starting fires, increases world's wetness level, only 5 uses

3. to a certain place, set up previously: Backstep Watch - only teleports where Wanda has just been, requires resources from Ancient Ruins or Archives, Telelocator Focus - costs additional 3 Purple Gems each time, Lazy Deserter - boss item, requires other people already in your destination place, drains sanity, costs Desert Stones each time or a second Lazy Deserter in a permanent place, Backtreck Watch - requires resources from Ancient Ruin or Archives and a Walrus Tusk, which is only accessible in winter, Second Chance Watch - teleports the ghost to the spot of death, possibly killing them again, also breaks if used on Wanda 

4. to any place on screen: Lazy Explorer, Wortox Souls

5. TO ANY PLACE ON THE MAP: Wortox Souls

In the category of 1 to 4, from already existing in the world to any place on screen, the teleportation in the same categories have similar cost in general, more or less depends on being a DLC exclusive character perk or not, but still reasonable.

But in global map radius, Wortox Souls made from Butterflies have completely disrupted this balance.

Wortox Souls dropping only from 10 000 health plus Bosses would restore this balance.

 

In comparison:

- Lazy Explorer requires: 2 Orange Gems and a Walking Cane which disappears after last use. Minimum about 21 days of intense waiting for winter, almost 3 hours, and it's still very RNG dependant on the amount of Walrus Camps in the world and if they have a healthy tooth, this can be omitted by finding a Cane near a dead body, but it happens rarely and it's a tragedy for the fallen, then you'll still need 2 remaining Orange Gems from Ruins or 27500 Dragonfly which can still have only 1 of them, you can also venture to the deepest part of the Ancient Ruins, defeat 10 000 health mutated with Nightmare Fuel Ancient Guardian and HOPE to get the Lazy Explorer

- Wortox Souls: kill a Butterfly. That's it. Seriously. No Sanity drop, no Ruins Venture, no wasted time. You can also teleport literally anywhere on the map.

The effort AND time required in the 2 tasks above have significant difference, so you can tell yourself Wortox Souls should only drop from 10 000 health Bosses.

 

I've seen people saying that teleportation is not a big deal, and it shouldn't be so expensive.

I disagree!

In real life, there is no known physical mechanism that would allow for teleportation, but on sci-fi movies it's very high technology or incredibly powerful magic.

The power to transfer matter or energy from one point to another without traversing the physical space between them is not a survival necessity and is entirely optional. But it's extraordinary and should be luxuriously priced to reflect that.

 

It's a joke, but I also find it a highly accurate comparison.
Characters vary in power and potential, usually doing normally hard things much easier, but what, Wortox is forgiven because he's a DLC character and Wickerbottom is not? Wortox does this for himself and himself alone, Wickerbottom's power is for everyone's good and she still pays for it herself.

It has been said before and I'll repeat it, the cost of Iridescent Gem is high (and so be it), but it may heavily cripple everyone in the game progression if she uses Archive's Gems, or Lunar Grimoire will almost never be made if she doesn't.
Full Moons on demand are powerful, but not that powerful. With current cost the Book should have 5 uses or just be made using Purple Moonlens and Moon Moth Wings.

[maxwell_winters]

39 minutes ago, Arcwell said:

 I still believe Wormwood is far more efficient at mass-farming and I hope you'll see why:

OK, I agree. But Wormwood doesn't have any interactions with banana bushes, berry bushes and stone fruit bushes as far as I know (it's been a while since I played him). Banana shake can be made with 2 bananas and 2 twigs, so we'll get 231 sanity from 1 read. She's still the best at mass farming fruits and veggies that aren't crops. 

[Gashzer]

 

4 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

I wouldn’t call it “Perfect” …. I would actually call it the most expensive hard to get “Character Specific” craftable in the entire game.

The first recipe was ridiculously too easy, the reworked recipe is ridiculously too difficult.

Depending on WHEN Klei wants players to be able to access this craft- should help determine what it’s crafting ingredients should be.

Keep in mind that with the original recipe Klei expected us to get this craft super early- but now.. if they do not intended for this to be a much later craft- then the recipe is too difficult.

finding a middle balance between what the crafting ingredients should be and around what point of the game they expect players to reasonably be able to acquire it is Key.

You can rush the archives to get a socketed iridescent gem and the lunar island before first autumn is over... i wouldn't say this craft is difficult at all... just requires abit more exploring. 

3 hours ago, Cheggf said:

No. It's fine being a bad light source that costs something like moon rocks, moon glass, or moon moth wings. I don't think it needs to be a good light source. 

The moon effects on the world are far more important than the fact its a good/bad light source hence the expensive recipe. Farm werepigs whenever want, farm glommer, do moon event whenever for more iridescent gems. And the full light during long winter nights is pretty good too.

Every world spawns with 2 free iridescent gems so two books can still be very easily rushed in first autumn that regen allowing for infinite light forever. 

[Parusoid]

5 hours ago, goatt said:

Lunar Grimoire: iri gem. Minimum 12 days

Minimum 12 days? Iri gem is available to take in archives just lying there with 0 threats around, so you can take it day 1

And it appears that your opinion might be in minority since below poll shows that people dont like iri gem in the recipe

 

[Jaisac HF]

I'll try to guess the future I see I see... a multitude of old ladies stealing gems including me xd

I keep thinking the same thing, the price is a bit expensive, and I don't want to waste time replenishing stolen gems.

[Bumber64]

6 hours ago, maxwell_winters said:

You eventually run out of every light sources and have to craft it again or recharge it, no matter how careful you're (the notable exception is glowcap with enlighted shards but those ar 2 boss drops, so come on).

Moondial (except new moon,) scaled furnace, and fireflies.

[Another membe]

7 hours ago, goatt said:

Food with 40+ hp is very good on sanity.

I can't add anything of value to the discussion, but I can point out that you made a mistake.