[Game Update] - 515595

[Faintly Macabre]

Of course it's a game limitation. We're playing a game. Balancing games solely by lore implications is a terrible idea. Dude can literally leave.

Edited July 16, 2022 by Faintly Macabre

[GelatinousCube]

2 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

Its like Nightcrawler in the X-men movies.. he couldn’t teleport people ANYWHERE there was a limit to how far the teleportation took him/them.

[Maxposting]

6 hours ago, Chubbylicious said:

And just to put a end to this comment, Wanda being able to teleport to ANY PLACE OF THE MAP while all she has is clocks... but Wortox, THE SOUL HOPPING DEMON, who travels through DIMENSIONS isn't... Well, I don't need to say much to express how this doesn't fit into the lore.

Her clocks allow her to travel in the 4th dimension, with constant being like it is, 3rd dimension is where it's at. Goofy lore explained.

[goblinball]

6 hours ago, Chubbylicious said:

BECAUSE THEY DON'T CARE ABOUT WORTOX. ALL THEY CARE IS TO THEIR TRINITY TO BE INTACT.

Hello, I play wortox and care about his playstyle. Please don’t try to invalidate other people’s opinions and silence their voices, it’s not very cool.

As for the wortox nerf itself, I’m glad we got it. His fast travel was a bit ridiculous. Being able to travel across the map at the cost of a few butterflies is not ok. If you ever need to do anything that isn’t directly next to your base, then no matter what that task is wortox will be one of the best for it, simply because he can reach it instantaneously at an extremely minuscule fee. It was overpowered, there is no way to argue against it.

[HowlVoid]

40 minutes ago, Faintly Macabre said:

Of course it's a game limitation. We're playing a game. Balancing games solely by lore implications is a terrible idea. Dude can literally leave.

Game limitations are not core mechanics and tend to be things that are not intended or limit what is possible. Do you suggest balancing the game around something set up by hardware and not human input to be sound?

Anyways, my argument isn't to go by what is possible in lore. The lore aspect is merely an excuse to keep things thematic. The point I was trying to make is that making hardware limitations as the reason for game balance should require a little more thought put into. I think it makes more sense to allow the player to teleport anywhere on the map from any point and begin adjusting the cost from there. 

As I said before the distance you can teleport may actually differ from person to person, so using it as a unit of measurement is truly to use a trivial number. Personally I believe it is better to make game balance decision based off human judgement.

I also hope Klei judges that Wortox being able to hop to any location on the map, is a balanced AND fun concept.

Edited July 16, 2022 by HowlVoid

[Mike23Ua]

12 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

Game limitations are not core mechanics and tend to be things that are not intended or limit what is possible. Do you suggest balancing the game around something set up my hardware and not human input to be sound?

Anyways, my argument isn't to go by what is possible in lore. The lore aspect is merely an excuse to keep things thematic. The point I was trying to make is that making hardware limitations as the reason for game balance should require a little more thought put into. I think it makes more sense to allow the player to teleport anywhere on the map from any point and begin adjusting the cost from there. 

As I said before the distance you can teleport may actually differ from person to person, so using it as a unit of measurement is truly to use a trivial number.

You may actually be on to something with this, DST on Nintendo Switch is hardware limited to 4 players maximum, meanwhile ps4 & Xbox One are capped at 6, the distance and direction in which the player can teleport as Wortox or cast fishing Rod are further limited on console to shorter distances than PC and to Unsummon Abigail into her flower to prevent her dying requires you to be right beside her, putting YOU in immediate danger as soon as you recall Abby.

If Klei is planning to ever make cross-platform play a thing, the distance may have been shortened so that all game platforms are on an equal playing field.

Otherwise- if your not playing on PC your playing an inferior gaming experience.

But really only KLEI could tell you why they reduced the distances..

Could be they plan to add some huge new content out at sea and a map hopping Wortox could complicate that..

Could be they plan to redesign cave biomes and hide extra “layers” in the same server shard but far enough away from one another that they can’t be seen.. but a Wortox could just Soul Hop from floor 1 of danger down to floor 9 etc…

Really there’s no clue why Klei makes the changes they do, I’m still wondering why they added Moon Quay curse and pirate raids if the curse is as easy as dying to remove and pirates rarely if ever spawn.

Edited July 16, 2022 by Mike23Ua

[Faintly Macabre]

8 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

Game limitations are not core mechanics and tend to be things that are not intended or limit what is possible. Do you suggest balancing the game around something set up my hardware and not human input to be sound?

Anyways, my argument isn't to go by what is possible in lore. The lore aspect is merely an excuse to keep things thematic. The point I was trying to make is that making hardware limitations as the reason for game balance should require a little more thought put into. I think it makes more sense to allow the player to teleport anywhere on the map from any point and begin adjusting the cost from there. 

As I said before the distance you can teleport may actually differ from person to person, so using it as a unit of measurement is truly to use a trivial number. Personally I believe it is better to make game balance decision based off human judgement.

I also hope Klei judges that Wortox being able to hop to any location on the map, is a balanced concept.

If what you meant was practical limitations, then practical limitations is not what they're going by. As you note, the distance any given person can soul hop at any given time is limited by things like whether they're playing on controller or where they're zoomed at. Since everybody can map hop the same distance, they obviously chose some scenario they think represents general expectations, and worked from there.

And the word I think you're looking for is "arbitrary". And lots things are arbitrary. Human judgment can be and often is arbitrary. And "this is the average scenario we want to use as a baseline" is a perfectly valid human judgment.

9 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Otherwise- if your not playing on PC your playing an inferior gaming experience.

Grats on catching up?

10 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Really there’s no clue why Klei makes the changes they do

They literally told us why they made this decision.

[HowlVoid]

1 hour ago, Faintly Macabre said:

If what you meant was practical limitations, then practical limitations is not what they're going by.

You are correct, re-reading the notes does say it is based on "expected" distance.

Quote

As you note, the distance any given person can soul hop at any given time is limited by things like whether they're playing on controller or where they're zoomed at. Since everybody can map hop the same distance, they obviously chose some scenario they think represents general expectations, and worked from there.

And the word I think you're looking for is "arbitrary". And lots things are arbitrary. Human judgment can be and often is arbitrary. And "this is the average scenario we want to use as a baseline" is a perfectly valid human judgment.

 I agree with that logic.

While that is fair judgment it would not be unreasonable to revert the changes. Seems the change actually made very little impact as to whether the player can traverse the whole map anyways. You just need to move a little bit first. So reverting the change would be a little more qol and keeping the change just adds a little extra tedium. Seeing as how the difference is so minimal I hope Klei reconsiders to keep things "fun".

Note: No I didn't mean arbitrary as I believe the choice was not random nor based on whim with no rhyme or reason.

I used trivial because I believe the reason was unimportant/of little importance.

Edited July 16, 2022 by HowlVoid
Made it sounds less redundant

[Faintly Macabre]

16 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

While that is fair judgment it would not be unreasonable to revert the changes.

I actually don't disagree and didn't personally think a nerf was necessary. Apparently Klei did, though, and I was just trying to highlight the lines of logic they used and that it's still better than the scenario their logic was based on.

 

[Arvian]

Well, some comments do make me doubt if they just don't want others be as good as them. They don't really care about others' feelings as long as their favorite characters are good or op enough. It's all about their pathetic sense of superiority. When Wortox could be as useful as their favorite characters, their previous sense of superiority will disappear. Frankly speaking, it's ridiculous to find superiority in games lol.

[Faintly Macabre]

3 minutes ago, Arvian said:

Well, some comments do make me doubt if they just don't want others be as good as them. They don't really care about others' feelings as long as their favorite characters are good or op enough. It's all about their pathetic sense of superiority. When Wortox could be as useful as their favorite characters, their previous sense of superiority will disappear. Frankly speaking, it's ridiculous to find superiority in games lol.

I think you're projecting a bit.

[Jakepeng99]

• Wortox Souls now only heal hurt players and have more diminishing returns when healing groups of hurt players.

I don't like this change, i tested it and they increased the soul penalty to 2 health instead of 1, this makes Wortox's souls bad in large group battles, and makes it much harder to heal himself, encouraging a character with good support to avoid large team batles since otherwise he would have to eat healing food which is very expensive. The one health penalty was fine, it was balanced, Wigfrid's health stealing song was still better for groups of 3 and more, but souls still worked well enough. Wortox can use healing salves and honey bandages, but it still makes him less at supporting.

 

[b l a n k]

The soul hop map distance felt really good, too bad it's already been reduced.

[z3rox12]

3 hours ago, Faintly Macabre said:

This actually seems pretty reasonable to me. In case it's not clear to others reading ("teleporting manually" kind of tripped me up for a sec): the distance you can jump instantly on the map is now in line with the distance that you could get with the same number of souls if you just Soul Hopped there. That seems fair; you still save a good bit of time, and bypass considerations like whether or not there's traversable terrain in a straight line from your starting point to your destination.

Thank you for explaining this. with this into consideration im more than ok with the change .

 

[h2mk]

3 hours ago, Faintly Macabre said:

This actually seems pretty reasonable to me. In case it's not clear to others reading ("teleporting manually" kind of tripped me up for a sec): the distance you can jump instantly on the map is now in line with the distance that you could get with the same number of souls if you just Soul Hopped there. That seems fair; you still save a good bit of time, and bypass considerations like whether or not there's traversable terrain in a straight line from your starting point to your destination.

100% agree with this, it makes sense and you can still soul hop over great distances of water

[h2mk]

11 hours ago, HugoM said:

•  
• The Everything Encyclopedia bonus now gets properly saved

What does this mean?

[GelatinousCube]

4 hours ago, Faintly Macabre said:

This actually seems pretty reasonable to me. In case it's not clear to others reading ("teleporting manually" kind of tripped me up for a sec): the distance you can jump instantly on the map is now in line with the distance that you could get with the same number of souls if you just Soul Hopped there. That seems fair; you still save a good bit of time, and bypass considerations like whether or not there's traversable terrain in a straight line from your starting point to your destination.

On console soul hop is a tiny distance rather than a full screen so I'm guessing this change is going to be even more limiting distance wise on console...

Fantastic..

[lionking102]

I have to say: I'm not playing Wortox, but I feel really bad for all Wortox players. 

In my opinion he was not a strong character before and the buffs were appropriate and fun. To bad that a lot of fun stuff is quickly considered "op" (without even really playing with it) and then get nerved and often is really bad afterwards. 

How was he that strong that he needs nerfs now? He has real downsides (I think the food thing, beeing a monster and soul drop at 20 is a real bad downside) and the soul hop is not as "op" as people state it. Yeah I know wortox can teleport just by killing butterflies... tbh in the time I kill 10 butterlies I can also walk that distance without the new teleporting feature. 

But all in all I don't really understand how every new and cool mechanic needs to be perfectly balanced in a game like DST which is impossible.

[Arvian]

Anyway, I just wanna say that TP is not equal with OP. High flexibility is just Wortox's feature and it shouldn't be exaggerated. A jumping imp won't break the balance I think.

[flamboyant wolf]

i don't have a strong opinion about the nerf, but during testing i found that Wortox doesn't seem to be able to map hop to a boat, even though he normally is able to do so with a regular soul hop(although i do see how it could be pretty problematic, considering a boat could be moved by another player off screen). 

rip "secret" base under the canopy. 

[lakhnish]

14 hours ago, HugoM said:

Wortox Soul Hop with the Map has had its range reduced by 20%.

• This puts it in line with the expected range a player experiences when teleporting manually.

Wortox gets a free soul hop if he hops shortly afterwards now though. Wouldn't it just be more soul-efficient to hop that way otherwise rather than with the map and only map hop for islands or places that are cut off from the main land?

[b l a n k]

 

On 7/16/2022 at 3:59 PM, lakhnish said:

Wortox gets a free soul hop if he hops shortly afterwards now though. Wouldn't it just be more soul-efficient to hop that way otherwise rather than with the map and only map hop for islands or places that are cut off from the main land?

Yes, you go farther with double hops instead of teleporting now... 10 souls against 12 for the same distance.

The previous teleport cost was good, but now it's not really worth it anymore, unless going to islands like you said, and even then it would be better to double hop until being close to the border before teleporting to minimize the cost.

Edit: idk why the borders are croped on the recording, skill issue

Edit 2: Fixed in 516063, thank you klei <3

Edited July 21, 2022 by b l a n k

[SadeceAtakan]

1 hour ago, lionking102 said:

I have to say: I'm not playing Wortox, but I feel really bad for all Wortox players. 

In my opinion he was not a strong character before and the buffs were appropriate and fun. To bad that a lot of fun stuff is quickly considered "op" (without even really playing with it) and then get nerved and often is really bad afterwards. 

How was he that strong that he needs nerfs now? He has real downsides (I think the food thing, beeing a monster and soul drop at 20 is a real bad downside) and the soul hop is not as "op" as people state it. Yeah I know wortox can teleport just by killing butterflies... tbh in the time I kill 10 butterlies I can also walk that distance without the new teleporting feature. 

But all in all I don't really understand how every new and cool mechanic needs to be perfectly balanced in a game like DST which is impossible.

Exactly. People don't seem to realize that his downsides are annoying enough to compansate his upsides. In my friend group, everyone wants a Wortox in the team for easy heals but rarely someone picks him. 

I don't understand what's the big deal about teleporting in the map back and forth. Wanda can already do it cheaper than him.

[Echsrick]

imagine klei would finaly nerf wendy when someone says that shes unreasonable strong, that would be actualy great

[maxwell_winters]

Why did this thread turn into bashing Wortox for being "broken OP" while Wickerbottom still has way more powerful books available for ridiculously cheap price? Is it OK for Wicker to be "broken OP" but not OK for Wortox?