Randomness in this game is what kills the fun

[Mike23Ua]

Well this thread got way way off topic.. but I feel like I should insert the official product description for what DS/DST is here:

This is the information people read (or at least they SHOULD BE reading..) Before they purchase this game & as such- I can NEVER agree with OPs desires to want less random generation because that’s literally one of the product descriptions for buying the game.

[Guille6785]

10 hours ago, kirihime said:

tl;dr speedrunning is not the intended way to play the game and more than 99% of the playerbase isn't doing it but these speedrunners still demand the game be rebuilt entirely around them

op is not a speedrunner lol if you think doing ruins before winter is speedrunning your standards are absurdly low

[Cheggf]

2 hours ago, Guille6785 said:

op is not a speedrunner lol if you think doing ruins before winter is speedrunning your standards are absurdly low

He keeps resetting worlds because he doesn't want to spend 5 more minutes looking for something. He may not be good at speed running but he definitely is.

[Guille6785]

7 hours ago, Cheggf said:

He may not be good at speed running but he definitely is.

except they're not a speedrunner because speedrunning has the element of a competition and they're nowhere near achieving something that is relevant from the perspective of a competition

for example, if you beat super mario bros in 10 minutes that'd actually be kind of impressive to me because I've never tried to speedrun that game and I couldn't pull that off, but in the grand scheme of things nobody would refer to that 10 minute run as a speedrun because the competition is happening with runs below the 5 minute mark (world record is 4:54), so while one may subjectively consider it a speedrun, the community as a whole wouldn't, and not to mention the sentiment that referring to a 10 minute run as a speedrun would be undermining the achievements of those that are actually getting top runs by putting them all in the same bag

back to dst, in this community for some reason common sense doesn't apply and therefore killing fuelweaver on day 62 makes you a """"speedrunner""""" to a lot of people even if the current record is 7 hours faster, and like I said this puts all speedrunners in the same category and makes the actually impressive runs look like a meme

speedrunning =/= rushing btw

[Falkenpelz]

Randomness is what brings me fun. I like mods like Random Spawner for even more of it - chaos rules!

[Mike23Ua]

28 minutes ago, Falkenpelz said:

Randomness is what brings me fun. I like mods like Random Spawner for even more of it - chaos rules!

Interestingly enough DST actually does have some RNG but some of it is so obscure with such low odds of happening that not many people are even aware that it happens at all- here is an example:

(gif below is from before Wurts change so frogs won’t attack her anymore)

that is not a mod, hostile enemy mobs can indeed spawn from random tumbleweeds the player attempts to pick open. But it happens at such a low % that you pretty much have to spend all your time plucking tumbleweeds to get it to happen.

Shipwrecked and Hamlet amped up the RNG factor of mob encounters with things like snakes, scorpions or even just Piko squirrels who steal your tree seeds and scurry away with them.

I would love more RNG like that, but I’d also enjoy more RNG in how my worlds are generated.. maybe some worlds have fewer or no roads? Maybe Pig King spawns on Lunar Island or somewhere deep in the Caves or maybe it won’t spawn at all?

In general I absolutely HATE with a burning passion: Repetitive games, anything I can play through once and then know exactly what to do the second time I play: I find those types of games BORING..

Which is why I gravitate towards games like Spelunky, Spelunky 2, DS, DST, State of Decay 2, Apex Legends, Fortnite, etc…

Because when it comes to these types of games: Your not always going to find the same zombie in the same building, or the same weapon in the same location.

I’d absolutely love to see Speed Runners attempt to Speed Run Apex Legends or Fortnite.. Spelunky & Spelunky 2 even have Speed Running Achievements for completing the entire game (and all the RNG levels it throws at you) in less than 10 minutes.. Speed Running DS/DST?? Well- because most biomes always spawn the exact same resources, and most boss fights always happen the same way- Speed Running DST is way more achievable than something like Apex Legends, Fortnite or Spelunky. In fact: I’d gladly shake the hand of any speed runner who can accomplish such a near impossible task.

I could probably speed run the original 3 Sonic and Mario games because I know every level layout and enemy encounter by heart.. but those were games I played as a kid.. before Mario/Sonics lovechild Spelunky was created- I feel like all those years playing Mario/Sonic has lead me to the ultimate challenge that is Spelunky.. and I’m not afraid to say that as hard as I’ve tried- I still have yet to beat either of them. This is obviously factored in by the RNG of every level each time I play.. and that’s one of the original promises Klei’s product description for the DS franchise states as a Key game feature-

“At any time you can generate a new living & breathing world that hates you and want you to die.”

RNG is literally one of the reasons I bought DS/DST and I deeply DEEPLY wish there were a whole lot more of it.

If that means making the game almost impossible to speed run like Apex/Fortnite or Spelunky? Then that’s too bad for Speed Runners.. I want more of what the game promised I would get.. I don’t want the game changed to be more speed run accessible.

[ALCRD]

8 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

(gif below is from before Wurts change so frogs won’t attack her anymore)

About that. This doesn't apply to Frogs from Tumbleweeds.

On my recent Wurt world i got a frog from farming Tumbleweeds and it automatically started attacking me without any provocation.

[kirihime]

2 hours ago, Guille6785 said:

except they're not a speedrunner because speedrunning has the element of a competition and they're nowhere near achieving something that is relevant from the perspective of a competition

for example, if you beat super mario bros in 10 minutes that'd actually be kind of impressive to me because I've never tried to speedrun that game and I couldn't pull that off, but in the grand scheme of things nobody would refer to that 10 minute run as a speedrun because the competition is happening with runs below the 5 minute mark (world record is 4:54), so while one may subjectively consider it a speedrun, the community as a whole wouldn't, and not to mention the sentiment that referring to a 10 minute run as a speedrun would be undermining the achievements of those that are actually getting top runs by putting them all in the same bag

back to dst, in this community for some reason common sense doesn't apply and therefore killing fuelweaver on day 62 makes you a """"speedrunner""""" to a lot of people even if the current record is 7 hours faster, and like I said this puts all speedrunners in the same category and makes the actually impressive runs look like a meme

speedrunning =/= rushing btw

So if I want to speedrun Mario and I manage to get my run time down to 10 minutes I'm not yet speedrunning it?
it just seems like a kind of elitism to me

as far as i'm concerned if you're playing with the intent of achieving a specific state in the minimum time possible, that's speedrunning, regardless of how competent you are or aren't at it

 

edit: as for speedrunning vs rushing, to me, rushing is when you intend to keep playing the world afterwards, with the rewards themselves being the focus, speedrunning is when you shoot to achieve a specific thing and then you're done, with time being the sole priority

[Dextops]

8 minutes ago, kirihime said:

So if I want to speedrun Mario and I manage to get my run time down to 10 minutes I'm not yet speedrunning it?
it just seems like a kind of elitism to me

no, it's just that the speedrunning scene has run so far from where you currently are, what you're doing is leagues below what is happening at the speedrunning scene. It's like me submitting a 2 hour speedrun for mario odyssey even though the average is much much less 

[Guille6785]

10 minutes ago, kirihime said:

So if I want to speedrun Mario and I manage to get my run time down to 10 minutes I'm not yet speedrunning it?
it just seems like a kind of elitism to me

telling my mom to take ibuprofen doesn't turn me into a pharmacist

it's not elitism not to want to award participation trophies to everyone and their mother, anyone who isn't a novice can come out of the ruins before winter, if it's fine to refer to all those people as speedrunners then the word just loses its meaning completely

[kirihime]

31 minutes ago, Dextops said:

no, it's just that the speedrunning scene has run so far from where you currently are, what you're doing is leagues below what is happening at the speedrunning scene. It's like me submitting a 2 hour speedrun for mario odyssey even though the average is much much less 

i mean you called it a speedrun right there
 

29 minutes ago, Guille6785 said:

it's not elitism not to want to award participation trophies to everyone and their mother, anyone who isn't a novice can come out of the ruins before winter, if it's fine to refer to all those people as speedrunners then the word just loses its meaning completely

calling someone a speedrunner is hardly a trophy and it's certainly not something to be proud of

 

[Dextops]

4 minutes ago, kirihime said:

i mean you called it a speedrun right there

because calling it "completing a game in a semi quick matter, but not enough to be considered speedrunning because of how far below the bar it is" is a very big mouthful

 

5 minutes ago, kirihime said:

calling someone a speedrunner is hardly a trophy and it's certainly not something to be proud of

why would you not be happy to be called a speedrunner? im sure it's amazing to be recognized for your skill and to be appreciated in it and it's something i'd be extremely proud of.

[skile]

On 5/20/2022 at 7:47 PM, goodguythatguy said:

I don't know who invented the concept of "Rushing", it sounds like a strategy for people that are desperate, have no patience, have little long-term thinking, and aren't much interested with collaborating with other players. I guess the fiends need their fix. 

from my personal experience, ruin rushers are actually pretty cooperative, but I guess that differs from person to person. 

[Guille6785]

44 minutes ago, kirihime said:

calling someone a speedrunner is hardly a trophy and it's certainly not something to be proud of

except it is something to be proud of

this right here sums up the dst community

[Third Porkus]

56 minutes ago, kirihime said:

calling someone a speedrunner is hardly a trophy and it's certainly not something to be proud of

I feel like that is very insulting to a very competitive and very difficult skillset that is absolutely an achievment to be happy about! Remember when Joeshmocoolstuff did his fuelweaver speedrun? That was a massive stride and an insane challenge for a boss that had just recently came out and was extremely hard for the community at the time. Making new strategies and compiling them together and pioneering things, absolutely awesome. Why would someone not be proud of that? And why would someone not be proud of replicating it? Times are a lot faster now but imitating speedrunners is also an achievment because at the very least you are comparable in mechanical skill and pathing, which is great for whoever wants to do that. Speedruns have gotten a lot more complicated since then, but the same principle is there, there is pioneering which is difficult and there is replication which is less difficult but still something to be proud of. It almost seems like you are reaction baiting. Point is: Speedrunning is hard and rewarding.

[Mike23Ua]

I’m assuming the moderators are on holiday, otherwise we would’ve already gotten the get back on topic please post by now.

If the Ops complaint is about RNG of the game making their speed runs less effective then in this particular scenario with this particular type of game Speed Running = Bad. End of subject..

Its also worth pointing out that in general and in every sense of the competitive nature of speed running- Everyone has to be able to do the exact same thing… so someone ELSE can beat their run.. Aka Speed Run.

If you want to get Technical: Racing your Lap Ghost in any racing game ever is considered a speed run so long as you beat your previous record.

However: and it is important to note- that in those types of games the vehicle and track layout are always the same and your always using the same equipment to beat yourself.

AKA why the DAILY CHALLENGE for Spelunky 2 has EVERYONE In the ENTIRE WORLD play on the same World Seed- but you can only attempt the challenge ONCE and where you fail is just where someone else attempts to beat you.

DS/DST isn’t this type of game and as much as gullie likes to think so- it shouldn’t be treated as one either- Why? Because as I stated earlier- A speed run requires all competitors to be using the same equipment and competing on the same track with the same rules..

Its technically a game of H-O-R-S-E like from the old Tony Hawk games, you have to perform the exact combo the other player does and then add your own tricks to it.

DS/DST isn’t this type of game: The character you pick, the RNG odds of getting resources, the way your world generates all play factors into your so called “Speed Run”

If everyone could play on the same world seed and encounter the same experiences as everyone else then you could argue DS/DST could be speed ran.. but in its current form a myriad of things will disrupt that- including but not just limited to: frequency of meteor showers, enemy mob spawns, pure blind luck.

For example: if you “Speed Run” getting to Lunar Island but you do it in your world and I do it in mine (which has lunar connected to the main land) is it fair that you have to sail a good distance and/or have a wild encounter with a RockJaw shark that you need to deal with that chips away at your time?

no… no it is not- And that is EXACTLY why the daily challenge for Spelunky 2 has everyone run the same level with the same enemy mobs and resources to put them all on the same playing field.

[goodguythatguy]

19 minutes ago, Third Porkus said:

I feel like that is very insulting 

I feel like you are manipulative and tyrannical, doesn't make it true.

[Third Porkus]

Just now, goodguythatguy said:

I feel like you are manipulative and tyrannical, doesn't make it true and doesn't mean moderators need to get involved either. I don't see anything here that's off track and in need of moderator action.

God dizzamn, some people.

Huh?

[goodguythatguy]

8 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

I’m assuming the moderators are on holiday, otherwise we would’ve already gotten the get back on topic please post by now.

I don't see anything here that's off track and in need of moderator action.

[Guille6785]

10 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

A speed run requires all competitors to be using the same equipment and competing on the same track with the same rules..

lmao no look at doom eternal which basically requires you to sink 500$ on a gpu if you want to stand a chance at performing certain skips that are framerate dependent

10 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

DS/DST isn’t this type of game

you don't decide that

4 minutes ago, goodguythatguy said:

I feel like you are manipulative and tyrannical, doesn't make it true and doesn't mean moderators need to get involved either. I don't see anything here that's off track and in need of moderator action.

God dizzamn, some people.

are you high

[goodguythatguy]

2 minutes ago, Third Porkus said:

Huh?

Sorry, I got the quotes mixed up in my comment. I said I feel like you are manipulative and tyrannical.

[Third Porkus]

1 minute ago, goodguythatguy said:

Sorry, I got the quotes mixed up in my comment. I said I feel like you are manipulative and tyrannical.

why do you feel that way?

[goodguythatguy]

3 minutes ago, Guille6785 said:

 

are you high

I'm not sharing my stash, sorry. 

Do you understand that's not an argument, or a point and is totally unrelated to what I said?

[jan Mele]

5 minutes ago, goodguythatguy said:

I feel like you are manipulative and tyrannical, doesn't make it true.

This is not a place to discuss *people*

We are talking about contents of a game and related things

[goodguythatguy]

1 minute ago, Third Porkus said:

why do you feel that way?

Because you are claiming a comment is insulting to a skillset. That's just...whatever.