[Suggestion]Allow WX's shock circuit to break the threshold of 100 damage.

[goatt]

Currently, shock circuits' max possible damage is 90 (with 3 shock circuits). It's not enough to kill any hostile mobs other than bats, lureplant eyes, tiny tentacles and birchnutter.

Increasing its damage from 30 to 34 will essentially make him unique because he can passively kill lots of weaker mobs with somewhat reasonable cost. Currently, 1 football helmet can shock kill 10 spiders with additional cost of 80 hp. But if the damage is increased to 34, it would be 1 helmet / log suit for 20 spiders, which is a reasonable trade.

Because this kinda trade is innately terrible for other characters, but ok for WX, it becomes somewhat a viable perk. It would also make it reasonable to passively shock other mobs such as hounds, cookie cutters, frogs, mosquitos, fruitflies, crawling horrors, and more. This could give people of different skill level and play style a new circuit option.

But this change won't affect boss fights such as bee queen, because it still takes 2 shocks to kill a grumble bee of 180 hp.

 

Alternatively, there is another way to break the 100 threshold without increasing shock, that is to allow wetness buff. With wetness buff, shock damage will increase from 90 to 150 for 3 circuits, or from 60 to 100 for 2 circuits, still not enough to one shot grumble bees, but enough to make it a unique trait.

[pyroisshy]

If this change does happen, Wormwoods bramble husk Realllly needs a buff

[ArubaroBeefalo]

7 hours ago, pyroisshy said:

If this change does happen, Wormwoods bramble husk Realllly needs a buff

which would take few seconds...idk why they dont buff it with a reasonable recipe (we don't need chests filled with hound teeth while waste bones from fish (growth formula)...) and change the durability number to a little bigger one

[goatt]

7 hours ago, pyroisshy said:

If this change does happen, Wormwoods bramble husk Realllly needs a buff

@ArubaroBeefalo One bramble husk paired with helmet is enough to handle an entire hound wave without any weapon (excluding varglet), if you can pull the crowd into a relatively small place. I've tried it. Regarding the effect, it's no less effective than 100 damage shocking circuit if it's used in proper scenario, namely wealking herds. The real effect depends on the size of the crowd. Bramble husks provides good enough option when dealing with a herd of weaklings. As passive damage is demoted in this game, I say its current form is as reasonable as 100 damage shocking circuits.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

6 minutes ago, goatt said:

@ArubaroBeefalo One bramble husk paired with helmet is enough to handle an entire hound wave without any weapon (excluding varglet), if you can pull the crowd into a relatively small place. I've tried it. Regarding the effect, it's no less effective than 100 damage shocking circuit if it's used in proper scenario, namely wealking herds. The real effect depends on the size of the crowd. Bramble husks provides good enough option when dealing with a herd of weaklings. As passive damage is demoted in this game, I say its current form is as reasonable as 100 damage shocking circuits.

but that herds can be killed easily without tanking with a made of living logs and bones armor...

i support the idea of the circuits reaching 100 damage, would make them more useful than now but would still being very niche tho

[goatt]

3 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

but that herds can be killed easily without tanking with a made of living logs and bones armor...

i support the idea of the circuits reaching 100 damage, would make them more useful than now but would still being very niche tho

I also think bramble husk's current form isn't an ideal option for anything. But that's the point. Like you said, it's very niche. Keeping them niche is a way to demote this kinda play style in general. My suggestion doesn't intend to take them out of the niche category, but make it relatively "reasonable", but really, still high price if you know the game well enough. That means I do want to still keep it niche, but it will be at the upper boundary between niche and practically useful, because currently, shock damage is discouragingly niche.

I think, shocking circuit and bramble husk are under the same category and so should be balanced to a similar degree. Bramble husk is kinda cheap, since you can use 4 dead wobesters as bone shards, and wobster dens are quite abundant. Its current form can achieve same result as 100 damage shock circuit, and can do better than that if the crowd size is bigger than 5. At cost of same 80 hp, bramble husk can potentially kill way more than 100 damage shock circuits, given 100 damage shock circuits requires all slots which is a huge price to pay. Plus bramble husks have other utility functions. So I think it's a balanced niche item. The downside of bramble husk in comparison is that its use case is even more narrow, but that seems fair.

[Ohan]

8 minutes ago, goatt said:

shocking circuit and bramble husk are under the same category and so should be balanced to a similar degree.

Theyre not though. 

In ur comparison ur forgetting to mention which character the husk belongs to and what that means. Tanking as wormwood is way, way, way more expensive than tanking as WX. Additionally, the electric circuits have potentially infinite durability (and if not infinite, incredibly long) and can be worn with a marble suit. And their recipe is quite cheap too. 

Not only does the husk break if u sneeze on it so it needs to continuously be recrafted but it also has *abysmal* protection so if u want to tank with it you are forced to equip a head slot armor. Which means u are tearing through two pieces of armor that need to replaced if u want to tank with it. If u want to achieve similar protection to electric circuits + marble suit u need thul crown which further increases the divide of these two mechanics in terms of cost, function etc. 

The two mechanics might both reflect damage but their similarity ends there. They are vastly different and need to be balanced /approached differently. 

[goatt]

13 minutes ago, Ohan said:

In ur comparison ur forgetting to mention which character the husk belongs to and what that means. Tanking as wormwood is way, way, way more expensive than tanking as WX. Additionally, the electric circuits have potentially infinite durability (and if not infinite, incredibly long) and can be worn with a marble suit. And their recipe is quite cheap too. 

I want to remind you that both shock damage and bramble husks are for weaklings. Specifically, I’m thinking of mobs with less than 150 hp and less than 20 damage. Neither of them is a reasonably viable mean to offend larger mobs. No one should really take bramble armor as a viable armor for anything. I think it should be used only in very few narrow cases.

Bramble husks are very cheap. You can make one by 4 wobsters corpse + 2 living logs. Wobesters are very easy to catch without sailing. While shock damage has infinite use, it can not be given to other players. There is no point in comparing durability of an un-shareable perk.

I'm pretty sure wormwood is discouraged from tanking even with the best armor. A fair comparison should use a WX with shock damage and the same WX wearing bramble husks but no shock damage. In that case, hp trade to loot ratio can be potentially similar depending on how well it was utilized. Again, I want to remind you that the ratio is in the context of herd weaklings. Neither of them are good general purpose offensive means.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

3 hours ago, Ohan said:

Not only does the husk break if u sneeze on it so it needs to continuously be recrafted but it also has *abysmal* protection so if u want to tank with it you are forced to equip a head slot armor

i agree with what you say but this in particular might be intended because, as far as i heard, the less protection an armor have the less durability it loses since isnt absorbing that much damage. But i might be totally wrong

 

3 hours ago, goatt said:

I want to remind you that both shock damage and bramble husks are for weaklings. Specifically, I’m thinking of mobs with less than 150 hp and less than 20 damage.

which arent worth to fight in that expensive way when you can make a hambat and go without armor... atleast bramble armor is aoe but still..

[loopuleasa]

I think just making the damage electric should be fine

[ArubaroBeefalo]

2 minutes ago, loopuleasa said:

I think just making the damage electric should be fine

wont be against of changing the module to cost 3 pines, adding 45 damage on touch plus a 10% (or a small flat number could be more interesting than another multiplier) electric damage

[Notecja]

So you can put bramble husk and use these circuits on WX? And now buff bramble, and both circuits... In either way, WX will be in better situation than Wormwood.

[goatt]

4 hours ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

which arent worth to fight in that expensive way when you can make a hambat and go without armor... atleast bramble armor is aoe but still

No it's not worth. I think because like you said, it's intended.

But if you look at it from another angle, it's not too bad. Let's compare bramble husks to bramble traps. Husks each cost 2 living logs while traps cost 1, so let's compare 1 husk to 2 traps.

I ran tests with hound waves of 7 (4 normal 3 magic) excluding varglets.

Fighting using husks, I also extra armor football helmet, and hambat, to be realistic. I pulled all the dogs into a relatively tight crowd, and walked into them first to let husk to do the first wave of damage. This usually kills 4 to 5 hounds. Then I hand trim the remaining. This way, husk usually cost about 30% durability. It's made of 2 living logs, so the cost is roughly 0.6 living logs.

Fighting using bramble traps, I used 3 different formations (illustrated in spoiler), the two loose ones are better. They usually triggered 7 traps to kill 4 to 5 hounds. Then I hand trimmed the remaining. (The tight traps usually triggered 12+ which is a waste). So one hound waves cost about 0.7 living logs.

Different trap setups in spoiler

Spoiler

In comparison, husks aren't that bad, plus you get the flexibility of choosing arena location instead of getting stuck with trap location. I would argue that husks are actually better than bramble traps.

(7 traps killing 4 or 5 hounds, of roughly total 500 hp,  which would require 8 to 10 regular tooth traps. Because of that, I would argue bramble traps aren't that bad either. Since husks are similar to traps, husks aren't that bad either, if used properly. In this case, proper way includes two things: 1. pull them together, 2. hand trim partial of them.)

 

I like how this thread end up focusing on bramble products.

 

[ArubaroBeefalo]

1 hour ago, goatt said:

No it's not worth. I think because like you said, it's intended.

But if you look at it from another angle, it's not too bad. Let's compare bramble husks to bramble traps. Husks each cost 2 living logs while traps cost 1, so let's compare 1 husk to 2 traps.

I ran tests with hound waves of 7 (4 normal 3 magic) excluding varglets.

Fighting using husks, I also extra armor football helmet, and hambat, to be realistic. I pulled all the dogs into a relatively tight crowd, and walked into them first to let husk to do the first wave of damage. This usually kills 4 to 5 hounds. Then I hand trim the remaining. This way, husk usually cost about 30% durability. It's made of 2 living logs, so the cost is roughly 0.6 living logs.

Fighting using bramble traps, I used 3 different formations (illustrated in spoiler), the two loose ones are better. They usually triggered 7 traps to kill 4 to 5 hounds. Then I hand trimmed the remaining. (The tight traps usually triggered 12+ which is a waste). So one hound waves cost about 0.7 living logs.

Different trap setups in spoiler

  Reveal hidden contents

In comparison, husks aren't that bad, plus you get the flexibility of choosing arena location instead of getting stuck with trap location. I would argue that husks are actually better than bramble traps.

(7 traps killing 4 or 5 hounds, of roughly total 500 hp,  which would require 8 to 10 regular tooth traps. Because of that, I would argue bramble traps aren't that bad either. Since husks are similar to traps, husks aren't that bad either, if used properly. In this case, proper way includes two things: 1. pull them together, 2. hand trim partial of them.)

 

I like how this thread end up focusing on bramble products.

 

but that scenario isnt realistic because the only players that would take advantage of it are players that cant kite 5 hounds (which consumes 15% of a dark sword = 0.15 living logs+few potential armor lose and some health in case the kiting wasnt perfect vs your 0.6+other armor and healing) but those player will suffer a lot playing wormwood in general and wont be able to farm the materials needed for the brumble armor neither for keeping ww alive as an experience player do. Maybe for players with lag is very useful but for everyone else is just a waste, a funny waste tho

[goatt]

@ArubaroBeefalo But we are talking about a niche product. We can't talk about as if it's not niche. We have to talk about it in the context of niche. Is it reasonably useful niche product? To summarize my point, yes, but only reasonable in a narrow sense. You say wormwood cannot tank, yes, but avoid tanking is a normal game play. We are talking about niche game play's fairness. By no means I'm recommending this as a preferred way. So I completely agree with your points. But they aren't kinda irrelevant to my points.

Just like weather pain is a niche product in the narrow sense.

[reallychina]

2 hours ago, goatt said:

No it's not worth. I think because like you said, it's intended.

But if you look at it from another angle, it's not too bad. Let's compare bramble husks to bramble traps. Husks each cost 2 living logs while traps cost 1, so let's compare 1 husk to 2 traps.

I ran tests with hound waves of 7 (4 normal 3 magic) excluding varglets.

Fighting using husks, I also extra armor football helmet, and hambat, to be realistic. I pulled all the dogs into a relatively tight crowd, and walked into them first to let husk to do the first wave of damage. This usually kills 4 to 5 hounds. Then I hand trim the remaining. This way, husk usually cost about 30% durability. It's made of 2 living logs, so the cost is roughly 0.6 living logs.

Fighting using bramble traps, I used 3 different formations (illustrated in spoiler), the two loose ones are better. They usually triggered 7 traps to kill 4 to 5 hounds. Then I hand trimmed the remaining. (The tight traps usually triggered 12+ which is a waste). So one hound waves cost about 0.7 living logs.

Different trap setups in spoiler

  Reveal hidden contents

In comparison, husks aren't that bad, plus you get the flexibility of choosing arena location instead of getting stuck with trap location. I would argue that husks are actually better than bramble traps.

(7 traps killing 4 or 5 hounds, of roughly total 500 hp,  which would require 8 to 10 regular tooth traps. Because of that, I would argue bramble traps aren't that bad either. Since husks are similar to traps, husks aren't that bad either, if used properly. In this case, proper way includes two things: 1. pull them together, 2. hand trim partial of them.)

 

I like how this thread end up focusing on bramble products.

 

Vs hounds none is that good because they stop to bark so you cant group them all tightly.

The one efficient use and i would argue the only one, is traps on splumonkey trains because they stack very, very tight.

[goatt]

2 minutes ago, reallychina said:

so you cant group them all tightly.

Of course they can't, that's why i didnt use math, but showed test results.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

1 minute ago, goatt said:

@ArubaroBeefalo But we are talking about a niche product. We can't talk about as if it's not niche. We have to talk about it in the context of niche. Is it reasonably useful niche product? To summarize my point, yes, but only reasonable in a narrow sense. You say wormwood cannot tank, yes, but avoid tanking is a normal game play. We are talking about niche game play's fairness. By no means I'm recommending this as a preferred way. So I completely agree with your points. But they aren't kinda irrelevant to my points.

Just like weather pain is a niche product in the narrow sense.

but imo is a bad niche item with potential to be better like the wx electric module

wather pains are very useful even outside of boss fights 

[goatt]

58 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

wather pains are very useful even outside of boss fights

How so?

[Hornete]

5 minutes ago, goatt said:

How so?

While I haven't tried, a friend of mine recently started using weather pains for chopping trees and they've personally really liked using them for that purpose so far.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

32 minutes ago, goatt said:

How so?

cleaning sea stacks, one shotting poison birchnut trees, mining trees and petrified trees (even more useful if you plant them very close to each other) or opening more than one chest worth of stacks of stonefruit (god send when playing old wurt) for example

i always keep in base the <100% durability ones that i end up having from boss fights to use them for these works because they save a lot of time

edit: also, i didnt try, but lakhnish said many times that come in handy with old hound waves so i can guess they are also good for other mob crowds like monkeys or killer bee biomes (i guess you can destroy the hives safely from distance with them)

[Just-guy]

In my opinion, it seems like an unnecesary change. I thought the purpose of the Electrification Circuit was to compensate if you get hit during a fight not as a way to deal damage because it's not reliable. If you're attacking you'll be better attacking back as well, killing the enemy faster and preventing taking too much damage from the enemy.

[dzzydzzy]

what if instead of increasing dmg past threshold, the shock circuits had a second ability of an electrical dmg multiplier? That way WX is encouraged to use the morning star and electric darts (something I NEVER use, personally) which would add a more thematic feel to their character.

[goatt]

21 hours ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

cleaning sea stacks, one shotting poison birchnut trees, mining trees and petrified trees (even more useful if you plant them very close to each other) or opening more than one chest worth of stacks of stonefruit (god send when playing old wurt) for example

(maybe also @ @Hornete) I would imagine weather pain in your examples are as rewarding as bramble husks or less. Because the time and resources spent to farm 1 weather pain (mainly feather and horn) make this use case not so rewarding.

Weather pain is very useful when their functions are hard to replace, such as in some boss fights, that's why we can skip looking at how expensive weather pain is. But the one you mentioned can be easily substituted with the most primitive methods, so we have to look at the cost of weather pain, and its high cost makes it niche in those cases.

19 hours ago, Just-guy said:

I thought the purpose of the Electrification Circuit was to compensate if you get hit

You thought right. Without the damage increase, shock damage is pretty much just that. But it will make Electrification Circuit undesirable among most (maybe all) relatively seasoned players. The motivation behind the op was to create a new reason to use it by seemingly tiny changes.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

3 minutes ago, goatt said:

(maybe also @ @Hornete) I would imagine weather pain in your examples are as rewarding as bramble husks or less. Because the time and resources spent to farm 1 weather pain (mainly feather and horn) make this use case not so rewarding.

Weather pain is very useful when their functions are hard to replace, such as in some boss fights, that's why we can skip looking at how expensive weather pain is. But the one you mentioned can be easily substituted with the most primitive methods, so we have to look at the cost of weather pain, and its high cost makes it niche in those cases.

1 spring gives you many WP (and killing moose goose with morning star reduces the time expend of them) that can be used for many stuff, horns can be keept by decon WP and morning star at low %. Also, as you said, you already need them for bosses so why not using the leftovers from a fight for something useful to reach that 7% for decon instead of mining stone fruit or other stuff i mentioned which means that you dont expend time to farm them for the works i mentioned but is a side effect of farming them to fight bosses

wp having many uses>>>>fighting spiders like a newbie wasting armor, healing (which requires time to farm) instead of 2 shooting spiders with hambat

and nobody is suggesting making bramble armor a day to day thing since it will keep being niche because tanking isnt only boring but inefficient, just making it less worthless with some little durability and recipe tweks. IDK how can you be against things like increasing by 100 the durability or changing the recipe to waste hound teeths instead of bones which not only have more sense since is spiky but also we dont have good uses for teeths, we only waste 2 for sewing  kits and noobs for traps, outside of that they only feed lureplants