New WX Mostly Overshadows Wormwood

[00petar00]

5 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

 

The issue i have comparing Wormwood to WX-78 after this refresh is because WX-78 always had speed and was even better before as he didn't need to sacrifice anything and speed is arguably the strongest stat in the game, so it is not just comparing these two but taking into consideration the stat itself and what it does for you. 

Speed in itself doesn't seem like it gives much identity to characters, its just the strongest so klei doesn't buff their other perks because of how much power is given to this.

Also if you compare any character to Wanda for example and you would come to conclusion that they all need to be buffed, literally similar can be said for WX-78, as he was just so strong before rework if he was always overcharged and he is still quite good after even if we conclude that it was a big nerf, he is his own character now and doesn't require help to access his power.

Klei won't put that much effort into balancing characters and i don't even think they can manage to do it without cutting down on the unique perks and making just copies of other characters and giving them all speed buffs, why do you think MOBA like league of legends gives almost all characters similar dash ability? Because such an ability literally can't be balanced around when some characters have it and others don't, same can be said about speed in DST.

All characters should have their own strengths, Wormwood is based around farming, he doesn't need to be good at combat, he is not the only character that has perks geared towards some areas of the game.

I think that most would agree that Wormwood needs a buff, it just comes down to what can be done to make the current Wormwood players not dislike it, that's why i don't think he can ever be separated from farming being his main perk, as many have accepted that as his identity. While you may be okay with such a big change, i don't know if the majority of Wormwood players would be too.

The reason WX-78 feels to you like it all comes together is because he has so many circuits and they are not hard for developers to code when it is basically using abilities from items that already exist, so he is very versatile and has some really good combinations and it is true that having permanent light and speed are really universal abilities that can be useful in almost every situation. Only characters that have somewhat similarly versatile kit to WX-78 are Wanda,Wickerbottom and Woodie, other characters are more straightforward and that's why they don't have as many situations where their abilities can be useful. 

[Ohan]

43 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

All characters should have their own strengths, Wormwood is based around farming, he doesn't need to be good at combat,

Wormwood was only made a farmer in DST because everything his *combat* armor was good against in Hamlet and other favorable conditions are not present in DST. 

1: making living logs in hamlet is much more useful than in DST because theyre way trickier to get: sources being either  elder mandrakes (not on starting plateau) or buying from magic shop (also not on starting plateau) or regular tree guards which u first have to grow from cones bought in the flower shop. This means wormwood can easily make shadow manip and dark swords and batbats with help from the ruins wells that spawn nightmares and give purple gems. Periodic vampire bat waves bring the wings for batbats to him. 

2: bramble husk is very effective against vampire bat waves because of their lower hp compared to hounds and the fact that they dont all attack at once but still fly close enough together to get hit with the thorns AOE triggered by another bat. The husk was also really good against rabid beetles which swarmed the jungles every lush season but had very low hp and low damage, their threat lying in numbers which the husk’s aoe easily eviscerated.

3: the way armor stacking works in DS:A it meant that husk+football helmet provided very effective protection. Vampire bats dropping pig skins made football helmets much cheaper to continually craft as well compared to dst. 

4: Pig Spas sell salves and poultices at a  cheap price which means healing is easily taken care of without needing to spend any time gathering materials for these items. Healing with poop although its only 2 hp is done verrrrryyy quickly, the animation is super short which means u can chug a whole stack very quickly. Pigs provide passive poop and dung beetles are everywhere and easy pickings. 

All of this made Wormwood quite a formidable warrior in hamlet despite his healing downside. Its only his iffy transplant to DST that changed this. 

this is not to say that hamlet WW is perfect, compost wrap heals for 30 and is made with extremely precious and non renewable nitre which is also needed to make hedges. Bramble trap is basically useless because theres no appropriate mob to use it against, vampire bats can fly. 

 

[00petar00]

15 minutes ago, Ohan said:

 

While what you said is true, i don't think that we should be comparing two different games, there are so many differences.

When Wormwood was introduced to DST he was converted from a solid fighter to support like character focused on farming, while i wouldn't mind if this changed, i wouldn't really want to see too many people complain about it.

Another problem is that DST already has too many fighters, do we need more? I think this is one of the big reasons he was changed.

DST is a multiplayer game, while in DS it was fine for most characters to have some fighting oriented ability or crafts, since you are alone and you will need to fight, in DST you don't need to fight that much depending on how many players you are playing with and there is a possibility to have more characters focused on supporting, since after all DST is balanced around multiplayer.

[HowlVoid]

1 hour ago, 00petar00 said:

The issue i have comparing Wormwood to WX-78 after this refresh is because WX-78 always had speed

Wormwood has also always had speed.

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 and was even better before as he didn't need to sacrifice anything and speed is arguably the strongest stat in the game, so it is not just comparing these two but taking into consideration the stat itself and what it does for you. 

Speed in itself doesn't seem like it gives much identity to characters, its just the strongest so klei doesn't buff their other perks because of how much power is given to this.

It's true his identity does not lie solely on speed because it lies in Hamlet. His identity did not transfer over into DST.  He is not his own character because he lost that identity and that whole identity has been pigeon holed into small patches of land where he grow crops in, rather than the entire land mass where he resides.

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Also if you compare any character to Wanda for example and you would come to conclusion that they all need to be buffed, literally similar can be said for WX-78, as he was just so strong before rework if he was always overcharged and he is still quite good after even if we conclude that it was a big nerf, he is his own character now and doesn't require help to access his power.

There is a reason I compare Wormwood to Wx-78, please see my first post in this thread.

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Klei won't put that much effort into balancing characters and i don't even think they can manage to do it without cutting down on the unique perks and making just copies of other characters and giving them all speed buffs,

Then you have little faith in Klei. I think they can do a good job in patching characters up as they have done Wurt recently.

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why do you think MOBA like league of legends gives almost all characters similar dash ability?

Not sure what the point is in comparing a competitive game to a sandbox survival game. There are more important things in the game than just dodging, such as resource gathering, time management as well acclimating to the changes in the biosphere. Giving everyone "speed" is hardly what you claim as there many more dimensions to this game.

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Because such an ability literally can't be balanced around when some characters have it and others don't, same can be said about speed in DST.

You can balance it if you use a point of reference, which is what I've been saying why comparing the two characters is important. Not sure what moral dilemma everyone seems to have in what is a basic video game tactic when approaching balance.

You take two characters that excel in a particular field and ponder how they can be different and how they can be the same.  If speed is as important as you claim that it makes for an even more important starting point.

This how you approach balance in games with a lot of characters, weapons and armor. Everything else you've said about making speed the focal point and only the focal point is not what good game development looks like. Saying it's a worse case example would undermine Klei as a competent game development company.

We have several damage oriented characters and they all approach damage differently. How is it that you don't see the same thing happening with speed?

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All characters should have their own strengths,

Though that is not the case, there are not a million different aspects in which every character can have a specialty in. There is a reason why characters overlap, and Wx-78 overlaps onto Wormwood several times. 

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Wormwood is based around farming, he doesn't need to be good at combat, he is not the only character that has perks geared towards some areas of the game.

Any self respecting Wormwood player that has mained him since Hamlet wouldn't call Wormwood a farming character.

The notion of him being a farming character came from inexperienced Wormwood players who were unable to set out with him and ended up only planting seeds at base.

Further development in that area came as direct result of losing that niche and Klei's attempt to compensate for that loss of niche.

Living logs do not affect farming, not the bramble husk, nor the bramble trap,  not even his lack of being able to reap the full rewards of the crops he grows (healing). He grew seeds as direct way to offset his inability to heal, thus he did not need to worry about hunger. A way for wormwood to live in the Hamlet jungle where he was in his element.

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I think that most would agree that Wormwood needs a buff, it just comes down to what can be done to make the current Wormwood players not dislike it, that's why i don't think he can ever be separated from farming being his main perk, as many have accepted that as his identity. While you may be okay with such a big change, i don't know if the majority of Wormwood players would be too.

The reason WX-78 feels to you like it all comes together is because he has so many circuits and they are not hard for developers to code when it is basically using abilities from items that already exist, so he is very versatile and has some really good combinations and it is true that having permanent light and speed are really universal abilities that can be useful in almost every situation. Only characters that have somewhat similarly versatile kit to WX-78 are Wanda,Wickerbottom and Woodie, other characters are more straightforward and that's why they don't have as many situations where their abilities can be useful. 

I think you have been trying too hard to fit DST into a box, when it shouldn't. DST is a game where the developers can take creative liberties and aren't restricted by a one dimensional game.

This is not a combat game, it's a game with multiple aspects to it. When approaching balance with such a large variety of playable characters you want to make sure that if overlaps happen they provide a different way in how you approach the game in a meaningful way. 

Though it may sound condescending please read the sentence above this one and take time to think it over.

Now, does Wormwood approach the game in a different way that is meaningful from Wx-78? Because that is where balance matters the most.

It's not farming because the differences there are rather small. Tilling vs direct seed into the soil,  gardeneer hat vs knowing the combinations vs relates to plants, and talking to plants vs one man band.

Is it combat? They have the same damage multiplier. Wormwood's only difference is living logs and they are guaranteed ways to claim those. Not to mention that in the main ways that they are used Wormwood does not have a clear advantage. Not in fuel gathering where they have the same damage, not in the same items they craft where the use for star caller is largely unecessary for Wx-78. Maybe Deconstruction staves if you really want more of a specific resource.

Is it resources gathering? No.

Is it scouting? Yes they both have a very strong speed perk, though one is more flexible than the other, and it's not Wormwood's. 

Now what is one BIG difference? That Wx-78 is highly adaptable and Wormwood is not. However, that is only to Wormwood's detriment. 

Do you see where the parallels are drawn? Wormwood is in a losing game, all it takes is to take an in-depth look to where the parallels are drawn and they are drawn very, very clearly.

[Ohan]

42 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

When Wormwood was introduced to DST he was converted from a solid fighter to support like character focused on farming, while i wouldn't mind if this changed, i wouldn't really want to see too many people complain about it.

when he got added to DST, pre-RWYS, in order for a wilson to grow 1 single crop at a reasonable speed he needed 10 cut grass, 6 poop and 4 rocks. In this context Wormwood’s wild planting is worth its weight in gold even after it was nerfed compared to Hamlet.

After RWYS his identity and focus as a dedicated farming character has lost a lot of its value and merit. The only thing he has over other survivors is not needing to till and being able to plant outside farm tiles which are ridiculously cheap to make compared to advanced farms before and which even Wormwood needs if he wants to grow giants. This perk alone does not make a fully realized character. 

So where does that leave wormwood? No longer the only survivor that can produce crops at a practical cost and with crafts that are underwhelming and no longer serve the functions for which they were originally made, most notably the bramble husk. The addition of mushgnomes made even his LL crafting less valuable. 

Theres no real farming niche for wormwood to satisfactorily fill anymore because farming has been made accessible to everyone. Or rather his design can no longer only be hinged on farming. 
theres also the fact that hes a survivor born from the moon which now finds himself in a game that has had a major contect arc focusing on the moon but which did not effect him at all. 

42 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

Another problem is that DST already has too many fighters, do we need more? I think this is one of the big reasons he was changed.

Wormwood even in DSA was never a real fighter in the way that wigfrid and wolfgang r.

What made him good at combat was the unique mingling of his living log crafting (scarce in hamlet) giving him easy access to dark swords, bramble husk AOE (many weak swarm mobs in hamlet), short rapid seasons (fast cycling to blooming season), and general hamlet mechanics like pig spa and plentiful poop. Outside of hamlet none of this applies, not even in DS:ROG wheres hes much more of pain to play. 

What im currently advocating for is returning Bramble Husk’s original combat potential which is the key to his combat prowess and his unique niche which would be unlike any other classical “fighter” in DST. 

A proposal: make it periodically trigger the thorns when worn by Wormwood in combat without needing to get hit at a small cost of durability. Increase the frequency based on how low his HP is. 
Increase the durability and/or make it repairable with fertilizers. Change the recipe from bone shards to hounds teeth, we’re not in hamlet anymore where 1 dead pugalisk gives a million bone shards. 

Besides that i strongly believe disregarding everything that has been said in this thread that wormwood deserves an update if only to connect him to DST’s lunar arc content, its absurd that wormwood’s lunar origin has been basically completely ignored throughout Return of Them. 

13 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

It's true his identity does not lie solely on speed because it lies in Hamlet. His identity did not transfer over into DST.  He is not his own character because he lost that identity and that whole identity has been pigeon holed into small patches of land where he grow crops in, rather than the entire land mass where he resides.

This^^^^^^^^^^ 

13 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

Any self respecting Wormwood player that has mained him since Hamlet wouldn't call Wormwood a farming character.

The notion of him being a farming character came from inexperienced Wormwood players who were unable to set out with him and ended up only planting seeds at base.

Further development in that area came as direct result of losing that niche and Klei's attempt to compensate for that loss of niche.

Living logs do not affect farming, not the bramble husk, nor the bramble trap,  not even his lack of being able to reap the full rewards of the crops he grows (healing). He grew seeds as direct way to offset his inability to heal, thus he did not need to worry about hunger. A way for wormwood to live in the Hamlet jungle where he was in his element.

Also this^^^^^  i think it really comes down to who has played WW in hamlet vs who has only played him in dst. Because the two iterations are wildly different because Hamlet shaped wormwood’s playstyle so much and all of that has been lost in DST where the only thing thats left is base sitting farming simulator in the minds of players at large.

[sudoku]

How to buff Wormwood: 

Step 1. Join me in petitioning for a seasons refresh

Step 2. Hope Klei gives Spring more nature/overgrowth themes instead of just rain and that new plant mobs are added in some form.

Step 3. Allow Wormwood to recruit these plant mobs 

Step 4. Wait for people to declare that Wurt and Webber need buffs

Step 5. Uhh, im not sure where im going with this anymore

 

But please klei do a seasons refresh

 

[HowlVoid]

10 minutes ago, Ohan said:

Besides that i strongly believe disregarding everything that has been said in this thread that wormwood deserves an update if only to connect him to DST’s lunar arc content, its absurd that wormwood’s lunar origin has been basically completely ignored throughout Return of Them. 

Giving Wormwood unique interacts with the forces of the moon as well as what has already been influenced by the moon could be KEY in replicating his interaction with hamlet's jungles.

Absolutely agree, this above all else could solidify his identity again.

We need more moon friends.

[Ohan]

38 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

He grew seeds as direct way to offset his inability to heal, thus he did not need to worry about hunger. A way for wormwood to live in the Hamlet jungle where he was in his element.

Now that i really think about it its crazy how small of a part wild planting really plays in Hamlet and how it has been blown out of proportion with his port to DST. 

if they wanted a farming character for DST they shouldve just made a new botanist survivor or something. 

Wormwood is unlike any other DST survivor where his niche literally is “Hamlet”. It originally was not farming, farming was pushed on him after he was taken out of his context… 

in that respect they really did a good job on him as a character made for Hamlet (even despite the flaws). Perhaps similar only to Wilba but i have no experience with her. 

Its a pity that so much of his playstyle etc was lost with the port, but Return of Them really has provided a new perfect context for Wormwood to flourish in if the desire is there on the dev’s part to make it happen. 

[00petar00]

50 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

It's true his identity does not lie solely on speed because it lies in Hamlet. His identity did not transfer over into DST.  He is not his own character because he lost that identity and that whole identity has been pigeon holed into small patches of land where he grow crops in, rather than the entire land mass where he resides.

Read my other post about why i think DST shouldn't be compared to hamlet.

When it comes to balance, its not that i have little faith in klei its that i actually hope they don't and as time has passed it has shown that they don't try to competitively balance characters as if it is a PVP game.

50 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

You can balance it if you use a point of reference, which is what I've been saying why comparing the two characters is important. Not sure what moral dilemma everyone seems to have in what is a basic video game tactic when approaching balance.

You take two characters that excel in a particular field and ponder how they can be different and how they can be the same.  If speed is as important as you claim that it makes for an even more important starting point.

This how you approach balance in games with a lot of characters, weapons and armor. Everything else you've said about making speed the focal point and only the focal point is not what good game development looks like. Saying it's a worse case example would undermine Klei as a competent game development company.

We have several damage oriented characters and they all approach damage differently. How is it that you don't see the same thing happening with speed?

I agree with you that comparing characters can be important but as you have said Wormwood has had his speed since release and when you look at WX-78 he was stronger before the refresh, so it is a bit weird to compare it right now after refresh but i didn't see much discussion on it before.

Speed is the most important stat, it allows you to do everything faster since you can move around the map faster, you can  dodge attacks that you otherwise wouldn't be able to, i don't know  how you don't see how important it is, the only thing that can be said to partially surpass it is Wanda's backtrek watch when it comes to travelling but even that doesn't help with dodging attacks, while Wanda has backstep too which she probably shouldn't.

As mentioned having higher speed allows you to dodge more attacks which means you use less armor.

Because damage oriented characters have perks that make their combat different, Wanda has range while Wolfgang has safety from his  high HP and can tank much more, Wigfrid has support oriented songs that help fights and so on.

When it comes to speed it is just pure stat, there are some things that klei can probably do but mostly what it does is that it allows you to move faster and that literally allows you to do many tasks quicker compared to other characters.

50 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

It's true his identity does not lie solely on speed because it lies in Hamlet. His identity did not transfer over into DST.  He is not his own character because he lost that identity and that whole identity has been pigeon holed into small patches of land where he grow crops in, rather than the entire land mass where he resides.

The problem here goes back to hamlet, he was made around that game not DST.

50 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

there are not a million different aspects in which every character can have a specialty in. There is a reason why characters overlap, and Wx-78 overlaps onto Wormwood several times. 

  There are nearly limitless possibilities when it comes to unique abilities and so many areas in the game that don't have many abilities or characters tied to them, if you don't try to keep every character perfectly balanced with each other so much can be done.

50 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

Any self respecting Wormwood player that has mained him since Hamlet wouldn't call Wormwood a farming character.

The notion of him being a farming character came from inexperienced Wormwood players who were unable to set out with him and ended up only planting seeds at base.

Further development in that area came as direct result of losing that niche and Klei's attempt to compensate for that loss of niche.

Living logs do not affect farming, not the bramble husk, nor the bramble trap,  not even his lack of being able to reap the full rewards of the crops he grows (healing). He grew seeds as direct way to offset his inability to heal, thus he did not need to worry about hunger. A way for wormwood to live in the Hamlet jungle where he was in his element.

You are going back to hamlet when he was changed to fit the vision klei had for him in DST, as mentioned before we don't need more fighting characters but ones that work well in multiplayer.

Hamlet is a completely different game and he wasn't made for DST as that version of him, as @Ohan has mentioned how many benefits he had in hamlet compared to DST.

50 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

This is not a combat game, it's a game with multiple aspects to it. When approaching balance with such a large variety of playable characters you want to make sure that if overlaps happen they provide a different way in how you approach the game in a meaningful way. 

I agree with you but i don't think this overlap should've appeared when it comes to Chorusbox circuit, it shouldn't exist in the way it does, there was no need for that when he has so many other circuits that are good, this just causes both characters to have less individual identity, while WX-78 will be fine considering  how many other abilities he has, he takes away from Wormwood.

50 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

Now, does Wormwood approach the game in a different way that is meaningful from Wx-78? Because that is where balance matters the most.

 

50 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

Now what is one BIG difference? That Wx-78 is highly adaptable and Wormwood is not. However, that is only to Wormwood's detriment. 

Do you see where the parallels are drawn? Wormwood is in a losing game, all it takes is to take an in-depth look to where the parallels are drawn and they are drawn very, very clearly.

 

43 minutes ago, Ohan said:

when he got added to DST, pre-RWYS, in order for a wilson to grow 1 single crop at a reasonable speed he needed 10 cut grass, 6 poop and 4 rocks. In this context Wormwood’s wild planting is worth its weight in gold even after it was nerfed compared to Hamlet.

I understand all that and i think that he should be buffed and changed to fit the game more, reap what you sow update made his perks weaker and now WX-78 release and he gets the ability to talk to plants too which as i said above i don't think he should have this, it just feels like updates are making Wormwood worse.

@Ohan you should probably read the previous posts, i completely agree with you and what you said about RWYS.

43 minutes ago, Ohan said:

theres also the fact that hes a survivor born from the moon which now finds himself in a game that has had a major contect arc focusing on the moon but which did not effect him at all. 

That is a possible solution that klei could take and focus more on making him unique with another ability that is related to the moon.

43 minutes ago, Ohan said:

Wormwood even in DSA was never a real fighter in the way that wigfrid and wolfgang

The point isn't whether he was the best fighter or not, i think that he was made into a support like character because DST was lacking when it comes to that and he didn't really fit as he was made for hamlet so they decided to remake him into what he currently is.

43 minutes ago, Ohan said:

What im currently advocating for is returning Bramble Husk’s original combat potential which is the key to his combat prowess and his unique niche which would be unlike any other classical “fighter” in DST. 

While this would make him another unique fighter, it goes back to how many fighters do we need? There is already a lot of fighter characters that are unique.

I would rather like to see a moon related that gives him unique power that is for general purpose like how WX-78 has light circuit, something that is useful at all times that fits his lore.

 

[Ohan]

33 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

i think that he was made into a support like character because DST was lacking when it comes to that and he didn't really fit as he was made for hamlet so they decided to remake him into what he currently is.

Yes that is true i dont think neither howl or myself is denying that. Our shared point i think is: now that his ‘support’ identity has been much weakened and there no longer is a use nor need for survivor who’s whole design purpose is to farm since everyone now can be effective at farming, he should be adjusted to be a more satisfying and unique survivor to play.

Nobody is as selfless of a support character to not warrant their own versatility and fun. Warly being the prime example.

DS/T has never known a purely supportive survivor. (In the way a healer is completely helpless on their own in other generic games as an example). Every survivor can be played as supportive as u want or go at it on ur own as much as u want. That has always been a core feature of DS, versatility. 

im convinced Klei agrees with this as well judging from the way they made his blooming (and thus access to mspeed) much more accessible in the same patch that adjusted his farming perks. They could still go further with this since all the lunar content that has been added since provides the perfect opportunity to embedded Wormwood in a new ecosystem to make up for the one he lost in Hamlet. 

33 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

While this would make him another unique fighter, it goes back to how many fighters do we need? There is already a lot of fighter characters that are unique.

The husk’s combat potential was a core feature of WW in Hamlet. Returning that in a fun and satisfying way is not gonna make him rival wanda and wolfgang or make him lose his supportive utility in the form of farming. Its not an either/or situation. His armor can regain its combat power while maintaining his passive support farming playstyle for those who have grown accustomed to it. 

theres no other survivor that combats through armor instead of a weapon. Combined with his healing downside this would make a really fun and unique playstyle. Its more than halfway there anyway, my proposal is mostly just to make the husk trigger periodically without being hit and to boost its durability. 

[QuartzBeam]

4 hours ago, 00petar00 said:

his perk of being able to just plant seeds anywhere became lackluster

I guess it's time for this again:

"Lackluster". I wanna see anyone else plant and harvest 6.5 years' worth of food in 4-5 days.

[00petar00]

17 minutes ago, QuartzBeam said:

I guess it's time for this again:

"Lackluster". I wanna see anyone else plant and harvest 6.5 years' worth of food in 4-5 days.

Now tell me how many days it took to gather that many seeds and why can't other characters with one man band do something similar with farm plots now?

I may not really have the most knowledge when it comes to farming since i almost never farm but food is easy to gather in DST and never an issue, just get a few beeboxes and you'll never need to care about food again.

This really doesn't change the fact that RWYS made Wormwood's ability to plant seeds redundant when plots are so easy to make.

[Ohan]

1 hour ago, QuartzBeam said:

 

its lackluster not because its bad or because u cant spend days covering an entire biome with seeds and then spend more days staring at picking animation loop but because it concerns food acquisition, one of the most trivial tasks in the game. 
 

edit: i should clarify, its lackluster in my opinion because its no longer enough to pass as a main perk of a survivor. Hoe-less (wild) planting is a fun fitting gimmick and a truly unique, inimitable aspect of WW. But after rwys it has undeniably lost a big part of its power when compared to what other survivors can accomplish.

[HowlVoid]

36 minutes ago, QuartzBeam said:

I guess it's time for this again:

"Lackluster". I wanna see anyone else plant and harvest 6.5 years' worth of food in 4-5 days.

Who would even want to farm that much? I also wonder how this can be optimized with giants veggies.

What's more how much time did you waste planting and harvesting this.

I get food for days in seconds with bee boxes, sorry but I really can't see this as more than redundancy from my perspective.

[QuartzBeam]

13 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

Now tell me how many days it took to gather that many seeds and why can't other characters with one man band do something similar with farm plots now?

I may not really have the most knowledge when it comes to farming since i almost never farm but food is easy to gather in DST and never an issue, just get a few beeboxes and you'll never need to care about food again.

This really doesn't change the fact that RWYS made Wormwood's ability to plant seeds redundant when plots are so easy to make.

Wormwood's insta-planting is up to 10 times faster than tilling and planting the seed manually. (It's less than that in practice, due to the human element, but it's nonetheless a huge difference.)

For any other character, this kind of mass production would require:

• tilling 1000 holes and manually planting 1000 seeds across 100+ turfs, then one-man-banding them once, or
• tilling anywhere 334-500 holes and manually planting 334-500 seeds 34-50 turfs, then babysitting them all while they grew (which is extremely tedious, unless it's raining)

Even without going for such a ridiculously big harvest, Wormwood has a massive speed advantage when it comes to farming. If that's redundant to you, then I believe we have vastly different understandings of the word.

 

25 minutes ago, Ohan said:

its lackluster not because its bad or because u cant spend days covering an entire biome with seeds and then spend more days staring at picking animation loop but because it concerns food acquisition, one of the most trivial tasks in the game. 

Who said anything about food acquisition? I'm talking about the fuzzy feeling you get inside when Status Announcements tells you have 1033 Pumpkins.

 

17 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

Who would even want to farm that much?

Some people might... *whistle* #MegabaserProblems

And as I outlined above, I think I'd rather gouge my eyes out before attempting to grow giant crops on a scale this big.

[Cheggf]

People really be acting like being able to completely ignore hunger entirely for 61 real life hours is completely pointless just so they can pretend WX is super OP and way better than Wormwood because he can ignore holding a light every once in awhile or something.

I think WX is overshadowed by Wanda's instant transmission, that's way faster than WX can go. Klei pls add rift watch circuit to WX.

[sudoku]

I mean Woodie could focus on cutting logs for 30 days straight, Winona fill an entire biome full of catapults, but is it really the best use of your time after you reach the threshold of diminishing returns?

[Ohan]

7 minutes ago, Cheggf said:

People really be acting like being able to completely ignore hunger entirely for 61 real life hours is completely pointless

You dont really ignore it though. Youve just condensed all the labor in one long intense and mind numbing session of 5 days of planting and staring at harvesting animation.

And while ur burning through rope bundling and unbundling all those pumpkins as u eat them, the game is gonna throw all kinds of meat at u between bosses, hounds and any meat as a result of resource gathering like silk or goat horns. Or while ur bundling and unbundling ur pumpkins a host of beehives are chugging away producing honey with 0 effort on ur part after setup. Food is not an issue if ur not a beginner.

11 minutes ago, Cheggf said:

just so they can pretend WX is super OP and way better than Wormwood because he can ignore holding a light every once in awhile or something.

Thats not what we’ve been discussing contrary to what the title might suggest, at least i havent. We’re assessing wormwood’s current situation and the degree to which hes been powercrept on not just by other survivors but changing game mechanics like RWYS and his unrealized potential. Nobody is asking for wx nerfs, we’re discussing wormwood buffs and changes. 

[HowlVoid]

17 minutes ago, Cheggf said:

People really be acting like being able to completely ignore hunger entirely for 61 real life hours is completely pointless

You can't get food in smaller sessions that in the end would result in the same amount of time it takes to harvest that much and not bore yourself to death?

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just so they can pretend WX is super OP

Can you please point to the number of time is has been claimed that Wx is OP in this thread?

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 and way better than Wormwood because he can ignore holding a light every once in awhile or something.

You mean.. permanently, right? 

 

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I think WX is overshadowed by Wanda's instant transmission, that's way faster than WX can go. Klei pls add rift watch circuit to WX.

Speed≠teleportatiom but go off, I guess.

[Cheggf]

7 minutes ago, sudoku said:

I mean Woodie could focus on cutting logs for 30 days straight, Winona fill an entire biome full of catapults, but is it really the best use of your time after you reach the threshold of diminishing returns?

You know you have to eat, right? What's a biome full of catapults going to do? And how did it go from 4 days to 30? And what do you think diminishing returns means, do you think after a certain day count you stop starving or something?

[Mike23Ua]

The TL:DR of this thread- Klei should add more Hamlet like Plant-Life for Wormwood to interact with.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

5 hours ago, Ohan said:

You two do realize the husk was part of Wormwood’s kit in DS:A right? Where the A stands for alone, meaning it was made for himself alone and not for the purpose of giving it to other players. And it served him very well in his native DLC like i mentioned above without needing to be relegated to niche utility that “is made to be shared and not for himself”. 

didnt said the opposite but in DS there is armor stacking, bees cant be kited and hamlet become filled with thorns in one of the seasons

edit. and even there i wont say that the armor was core part of wormwood just another "little" perk

[Cheggf]

7 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

You can't get food in smaller sessions that in the end would result in the same amount of time it takes to harvest that much and not bore yourself to death?

Are you telling me you're capable of going to your base, harvesting a stack of honey, and going back to where you used to be in less than 0.05 days? Because that's how fast you'd need to do that to compare to the efficiency of getting 6.5yrs of food in 4 days.

[sudoku]

13 minutes ago, Cheggf said:

You know you have to eat, right? What's a biome full of catapults going to do? And how did it go from 4 days to 30?

I didnt know there was a specific number of days we were comparing, forgive me this thread is full of looooooong replies. But i figured youre spending more time than just the actual act of planting, you are collecting the seeds off the ground, doing whatever it entails you to do to get a giant crop (i dont farm so i literally do not know).

But as @Ohan said the game will throw food at you, theres not really a reason to stockpile that amount of veggies unless you are doing like a farming only run or something.

[Ohan]

3 minutes ago, Cheggf said:

Are you telling me you're capable of going to your base, harvesting a stack of honey, and going back to where you used to be in less than 0.05 days? Because that's how fast you'd need to do that to compare to the efficiency of getting 6.5yrs of food in 4 days.

Do u think the number of pumpkin seeds in order to get 6.5years worth of food fall out of the sky all at once? The hidden piece of information behind that number is the tremendously long and laborious journey undertaken to get to that many seeds.