Pop Guy Posted January 31, 2022 Share Posted January 31, 2022 If shadow magic "empowers" Wolfgang by allowing him to lift wagons off a train, it means that Wolfgang without magic is a normal human being, not weaker. From "lore" we never see the Wimpy form, also removing it would make the new reworking of the character less indigestible. Just a thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Echsrick Posted January 31, 2022 Share Posted January 31, 2022 so that he can become a worse wes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abrocator Posted January 31, 2022 Share Posted January 31, 2022 gameplay > lore Not that Reworked Wolfgang has great gameplay, but… he needs some kind of might-related downside. His downside can’t just to be a Wilson with terrible dusk/dawn sanity drain when normal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atkvin Posted January 31, 2022 Share Posted January 31, 2022 from gameplay perspective, it's what neglecting actively maintaining refreshed Wolfgang punishes you with, making you more vulnerable and weaker. But unfortunately the way they designed mightiness and how to maintain it most people seem to get tired of it and prefer to just suck it up and travel around in wimpy form without worrying about it From lore standpoint, I can only assume it's the constant making some statement about how it's how Wolf feels deep down, like he's still too weak because of his failure, or reflects his cowardly nature slightly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shiguld Posted January 31, 2022 Share Posted January 31, 2022 18 minutes ago, abrocator said: gameplay > lore Not that Reworked Wolfgang has great gameplay, but… he needs some kind of might-related downside. His downside can’t just to be a Wilson with terrible dusk/dawn sanity drain when normal. I used to think that sanity downsides were completely negligible, but then i tried clearing the ruins as Wolfgang yesterday and it was a terrible experience. I was constantly fighting nightmare creatures between the insanity and nightmare phases. I could mine only one or two statues before a nightmare creature would interrupt. So much time wasted between fighting swarms of nightmare creatures, which made me sit through more nightmare phases, which depletes my food so i had to spend time collecting lichen, by which mightiness drained, so i had to work out again, and within that time, my sanity dipped again and the cycle continues. I logged out after Ancient guardian cause i just needed a mental break after all that. Also, is it just me or did the forums explode in activity yesterday? Must be the holidays... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike23Ua Posted February 1, 2022 Share Posted February 1, 2022 I understand it from a Gameplay perspective but I was hoping someone at Klei would shed some light on the lore perspective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainChaotica Posted February 1, 2022 Share Posted February 1, 2022 I just wish he wasn't vulnerable while changing form. I would still be startled and annoyed every time it happened, but if I at LEAST couldn't be chomped whlie completely helpless due to an animation with bad timing, that'd be something. As it is, Wolfgang is STILL a very "babysit-y" character, so I'm still not interested. When I heard he was getting a revamp the annoyance factor was the only thing I hoped might possibly go away. It didn't. It didn't get any less problematic, either. So meh. Yeah yeah yeah just keep track it's easy to keep him in mighty form what's wrong with you blah blah I CAN'T BE BOTHERED. Constantly counting calories for my character just doesn't sound like fun, and sometimes you lose track and it gets to where he's about to change forms down RIGHT when hounds attack. Just give us a couple invincibility frames during that for pete's sake. But they're not gonna, because he already HAD his refresh, so blah blah nobody wants to hear my whining anymore. ...Notorious Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheggf Posted February 1, 2022 Share Posted February 1, 2022 Because this rework wasn't thought about at all. They just changed how you get mighty without thinking about what that means for the gameplay. It's just here because it used to be here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HowlVoid Posted February 1, 2022 Share Posted February 1, 2022 From a lore perspective maybe it would of made more sense if his wimpy form was tied to sanity. When insane Wolfgang is afraid and would see himself as weaker and more frail version of himself. Wimpy form would only exist in insanity and he would temporarily turn wimpy for a short duration after being hit. But who cares about character depth? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dollmaker Posted February 1, 2022 Share Posted February 1, 2022 My theory is related to his fraud background. He is given the inhuman strength he desired, but he has to earn it trough physical effort, if he doesnt work for it, he's essentially punished by making him weaker instead, as a way to humiliate him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiwikenobi Posted February 1, 2022 Share Posted February 1, 2022 I figured that the wimpy form was a side effect of prolonged exposure to the shadow powers. The rebound back down from mighty goes beyond his normal form because of the magic messing with his body. That was my idea, anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yuuko Posted February 1, 2022 Share Posted February 1, 2022 Lore wise I think a decent amount of magic in the constant happens passively, reacting to a character's thoughts without them realizing they are directly causing action. I see Wolfgang's wimpy form as what happens because he feels week. Feels weak => body becomes week. Similarly his mighty form is basically caused by a placebo. You don't gain 100lbs of muscle by lifting weights for a minute, or chomping down 1500 calorie snacks lol but they make him *think* he is getting strong, and the constant magic does its thing. Mechanically... Its a vestigial mechanic left over from his previous power set that wasn't scrapped ... I believe ... mostly because the goal wasn't to actually evaluate / change / improve Wolfgang. It was simply to remove his food consumption and speed boost. In doing this they swapped eating for lifting weights, and speed buff for marginal work improvements. Why does his mighty go down when he's hungry? Because it used to. Even though the new system, the way the mighty meter works, its a horribly vague and nonsensical interaction. You don't gain anything from having high hunger, you're only punished if it falls. You don't gain anything from going wimpy => normal, you're only punished from going normal => wimpy. Its a bad play pattern imo, but its what we got. Klei said they're done with Wolf, don't care and move on. w/e 9 hours ago, shiguld said: I used to think that sanity downsides were completely negligible, but then i tried clearing the ruins as Wolfgang yesterday and it was a terrible experience. I was constantly fighting nightmare creatures between the insanity and nightmare phases. I could mine only one or two statues before a nightmare creature would interrupt. So much time wasted between fighting swarms of nightmare creatures, which made me sit through more nightmare phases, which depletes my food so i had to spend time collecting lichen, by which mightiness drained, so i had to work out again, and within that time, my sanity dipped again and the cycle continues. I logged out after Ancient guardian cause i just needed a mental break after all that. Also, is it just me or did the forums explode in activity yesterday? Must be the holidays... ^^ I felt that too. The increased sanity drain causes him to waste a bit more time than normal fighting off shadow monsters. It kinda gets annoying. If only he could refuel his gem weights with nm fuel... lol Do note that if you adopt a critter pet that it counts as an ally and decreases your sanity penalty. A kittykit or vargling aren't too difficult to get early depending on what you run into as you get started. If you fight eyeball boss before going down, the eyeball pet might not be too tough either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeeClops Posted February 1, 2022 Share Posted February 1, 2022 9 hours ago, shiguld said: I used to think that sanity downsides were completely negligible, but then i tried clearing the ruins as Wolfgang yesterday and it was a terrible experience. I was constantly fighting nightmare creatures between the insanity and nightmare phases. I could mine only one or two statues before a nightmare creature would interrupt. hey you're not supposed to test those things, just assume and have a strong opinion on it. I agree that wimpy form became useless after the rework, but I think removing it won't help his overall case that much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArubaroBeefalo Posted February 1, 2022 Share Posted February 1, 2022 9 hours ago, Dollmaker said: My theory is related to his fraud background. He is given the inhuman strength he desired, but he has to earn it trough physical effort, if he doesnt work for it, he's essentially punished by making him weaker instead, as a way to humiliate him. is like a monkey pawn curse Do you want to be the stronger? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubious little Posted February 1, 2022 Share Posted February 1, 2022 12 hours ago, HowlVoid said: From a lore perspective maybe it would of made more sense if his wimpy form was tied to sanity. When insane Wolfgang is afraid and would see himself as weaker and more frail version of himself. Wimpy form would only exist in insanity and he would temporarily turn wimpy for a short duration after being hit. But who cares about character depth? Honestly the rework should've been sanity based, considering thats a weakness of his and honestly sanity is barely a downside for any character besides maybe Walter because it happens while hes in combat, maybe like Webber/Wes/other low sanity characters because fights that massively drain sanity like Deerclops can become an annoyance with the slow nightmare creatures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pop Guy Posted February 1, 2022 Author Share Posted February 1, 2022 I do not know; I still don't understand why Wolfgang has to train if his strength comes from shadow magic ... at most he would have to eat nightmare fuel to become powerful. Sorry, it's okay that gameplay > lore, but damn it, in this game the tradition seems to be from a different universe than that of the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pop Guy Posted February 1, 2022 Author Share Posted February 1, 2022 Wolfgang should be able to lift other characters, both to train (when he doesn't have dumbbells available) and to be able to throw them at enemies (damage 68+) and to allow other characters to overcome rivers and crevasses (one-way flight). So he makes himself a symbiotic character with everyone else and interesting. Furthermore: a powerful presence like Wolfgang should instill security and confidence in his companions (who would not be more peaceful knowing that a nearby Hercules is ready to defend him from the monsters?) So Wolfgang should have a sanity aura of around 2 sanity per minute, like a wreath. Small, but precious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HowlVoid Posted February 1, 2022 Share Posted February 1, 2022 2 hours ago, Pop Guy said: Wolfgang should be able to lift other characters, both to train (when he doesn't have dumbbells available) and to be able to throw them at enemies (damage 68+) and to allow other characters to overcome rivers and crevasses (one-way flight). So he makes himself a symbiotic character with everyone else and interesting. Furthermore: a powerful presence like Wolfgang should instill security and confidence in his companions (who would not be more peaceful knowing that a nearby Hercules is ready to defend him from the monsters?) So Wolfgang should have a sanity aura of around 2 sanity per minute, like a wreath. Small, but precious. You just wanted a reason to post these... Didn't you? Not that I'm complaining... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pe Dabliu Posted February 2, 2022 Share Posted February 2, 2022 I think we just need to be able to still gain mightyness while walking with the dumbbells, maybe at a lower rate or higher durability cost. Or maybe have a dumbbell and walking cane hybrid, that can keep wolf in his current state for as long as he's using it, having less speed bonuses the weaker he is Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohan Posted February 2, 2022 Share Posted February 2, 2022 Umm.. *cough* wes should totally be able to ride on wolfgangs shoulders… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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