The state of Webber/Wurt

[Mike23Ua]

Literally the only thing I would change about Wurt (and this is also assuming Walani also gets added into the game..) is to allow her and Walani to fulfill the roles of gathering items in tiny streams- Allowing her to swim short distances with a depleting stamina bar- which in turn: Would speed up her process to get Kelp for Merm King by 1000%
Needing to build an entire Boat just to get kelp that’s barely out of reach is freaking annoying.. that is 4 planks of wood + 1 extra wood for an oar at bare minimum: Or 17 pieces of wasted wood.

Late Game maybe getting wood isn’t difficult but on the early days your gonna want that wood for other stuff like building science, alchemy, Prestihatitator etc.. and this significantly hurts Wurts gameplay loop for me.

There I am a character with Goldfish & Anglerfish skins (by the way Klei why the Frick Ocean Content does not have Angler Fishies yet?) But yet I can’t swim out gather that kelp staring me right in the face to speed up my Royal Tapestry? It’s dumb.

To balance Wurts ability to “swim” and because she’s a scaled fish girl: I would also make her “Dry Out” faster overheating at a faster rate, needing to cool off by swimming or jumping into a pond if in caves before jumping back out.

If Klei REALLY wants to get unique with it, Ponds could randomly spit Wurt out at other areas of the map where a pond is located. Making them “Wormholes” only Wurt can use.

I would also make it so that she can build a garden of fruit or whatever near her Merm-King and then other nearby Merms (particularly the ones that are meant to protect the king…) will gather the fruit and feed them to him.

Think of it as sort of how important people in Roman time area had people bring them grapes and stuff while they sit around indulging themselves on grapes, wine & cheeses.

Wurt honestly doesn’t need an entire Re-Rework a few touch ups and she’s great.

Webber got the water gliding spiders.. but fish girl can’t even swim to get her own kelp. 
 

I smell favoritism Florp.

[Scrimbles]

33 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Wurts Gimmick isn’t anywhere on the same level with Webbers.. but since you want to to make that comparison- Webbers Gimmick wasn’t unique when even WES could Hire an army of Loyal Pigs, Bunnymen or Rock Lobsters.

Jesus christ.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

1 minute ago, Scrimbles said:

Jesus christ.

he is right

[Scrimbles]

2 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

he is right

No, he's quite literally insane.

[MondayNight]

4 minutes ago, Scrimbles said:

No, he's quite literally insane.

I doubt you're in any remote position to "cast the first stone" given your past-and-present track on these forums.

 

Madness aside, indeed Webber and Wurt have same followers mechanic as any other character, except Spiderboy rework made them semi-permanent (well, till de-logging/changing shards). And, en large, they all are still semi-efficient at best, as always. Not to mention Spider Hat and Clever Disguise make them even less unique (with said uniqueness being very debatable as it stands). There's also the hostility component related to Spiders and Merms, yet once more: pick-and-swap Portal gimmick provides elements to mitigate it for rest of cast. I for one see no reason to play Webber or Wurt, Wurt the most with her merms wandering randomly in middle of fights or forever walking into a map corner - but then, again, is a problem with followers mechanic as a whole.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

35 minutes ago, Scrimbles said:

No, he's quite literally insane.

if that is your argument we can finish here

[Octohunter777]

On 1/21/2022 at 11:03 AM, Catcoon-pop said:

So i decided to make my second thread about the character i play the most: Webber! (and how weak he is compared to the other minion centric character)

On paper it seems pretty simple. Webber trades out of combat utility for more control of his minions and in combat utility, compared to Wurt who has less control of her minions but more utility out of combat. But the thing is, her minions can be pretty good in combat as well, even without the merm king. the fact that merms kite enemy's increases their survivability by a lot. Webbers spiders can reach the same survivability with nurse spiders, but that requires time and resources (both of which are in short supply in dst).

Also, Wurt's perks go beyond just her minions, which I cant really say for Webber. Also the more i play post-rework Webber, the more i realize that the control he has over his minions doesn't really matter that much. they feel more QoL changes.

What i cant decide on if this is a Wurt problem or a Webber problem. So this thread is basically discussing what you think on the situation, because I honestly don't know that much about Wurt and wanna hear other people have to say about it. :}

 

Webber's out of combat perks are more relating to collecting monster meat, silk, and glands. Wurt's are more about collecting wood and rocks. They each have their own things. (Although Wurt's are more about having slightly better pigmen) Any character who uses minions have their own special uses and I personally enjoy playing as Webber. I think it could be a Wurt problem, but I will also admit I'm super biased. 

But I don't really feel like this whole argument is a needed one. Both characters are good. Let's just leave it at that. 

[Falkenpelz]

Dunno about Wurt, but I believe a good state for Webber would be California.

 

... I let myself out now.

[Gashzer]

Webber is in a perfect state right now, no bugs no issues, feels unique from wurt with the more easy to recruit, hard to organise at base, combat oriented followers. Compared with wurt's more versatile, stronger but harder to keep recruited, merms.

Wurt on the other hand is almost perfect, klei just needs to allow for pigs,bunnymen and merms to teleport back to homes when they are lost and give merms animations for when they're at low loyality/hunger and for refusing food at max loyality/full belly.

Merm king is great as is, his initial cost vs overall usefulness is balanced. You only really need to feed him before boss fights otherwise just let him die an recruit a new one.

Merm king's trading is fine as is too, it isn't his main perk, just a side perk to get more tentacle spots for his actual main perks of allowing you to use merm guards along side of course the overall stat buff.

Webber is better for short session public worlds were you want quick armies to decimate dfly quickly before quitting as winter start lol

Wurt is better for long sessions in private worlds were you can safely invest in merm guards to absolutely destroy everything + the seasonal fish and wurts immunity to rain turn every season into autumn, great quality of life perks for a long world which webber doesn't have.

To sum up, both characters have unique approaches to using followers without stepping too much on the toes of the other.

Love both characters, as you might have guessed, i play webber on public servers and wurt (joint fav character with walter) on my solo private worlds.

Edit: webber doesn't have as noticable of a downside as wurt (vegetarian) so it allows webber to be more accessible to newer players when compared to wurt, by making his early game easier which balances the fact webber lacks the same late game perks as wurt.

Webber for noob, wurt for pro lol

[Octohunter777]

1 hour ago, Gashzer said:

Webber is in a perfect state right now, no bugs no issues, feels unique from wurt with the more easy to recruit, hard to organise at base, combat oriented followers. Compared with wurt's more versatile, stronger but harder to keep recruited, merms.

Wurt on the other hand is almost perfect, klei just needs to allow for pigs,bunnymen and merms to teleport back to homes when they are lost and give merms animations for when they're at low loyality/hunger and for refusing food at max loyality/full belly.

Merm king is great as is, his initial cost vs overall usefulness is balanced. You only really need to feed him before boss fights otherwise just let him die an recruit a new one.

Merm king's trading is fine as is too, it isn't his main perk, just a side perk to get more tentacle spots for his actual main perks of allowing you to use merm guards along side of course the overall stat buff.

Webber is better for short session public worlds were you want quick armies to decimate dfly quickly before quitting as winter start lol

Wurt is better for long sessions in private worlds were you can safely invest in merm guards to absolutely destroy everything + the seasonal fish and wurts immunity to rain turn every season into autumn, great quality of life perks for a long world which webber doesn't have.

To sum up, both characters have unique approaches to using followers without stepping too much on the toes of the other.

Love both characters, as you might have guessed, i play webber on public servers and wurt (joint fav character with walter) on my solo private worlds.

Edit: webber doesn't have as noticable of a downside as wurt (vegetarian) so it allows webber to be more accessible to newer players when compared to wurt, by making his early game easier which balances the fact webber lacks the same late game perks as wurt.

Webber for noob, wurt for pro lol

You summed it up pretty well!

Although with Webber while he is good for new players, there are some more complicated mechanics for the people who have put a lot of time into the game. But yeah I agree with this for the most part.

[Mysterious box]

2 hours ago, Gashzer said:

Webber is in a perfect state right now, no bugs no issues, feels unique from wurt with the more easy to recruit, hard to organise at base, combat oriented followers. Compared with wurt's more versatile, stronger but harder to keep recruited, merms.

Wurt on the other hand is almost perfect, klei just needs to allow for pigs,bunnymen and merms to teleport back to homes when they are lost and give merms animations for when they're at low loyality/hunger and for refusing food at max loyality/full belly.

Merm king is great as is, his initial cost vs overall usefulness is balanced. You only really need to feed him before boss fights otherwise just let him die an recruit a new one.

Merm king's trading is fine as is too, it isn't his main perk, just a side perk to get more tentacle spots for his actual main perks of allowing you to use merm guards along side of course the overall stat buff.

Webber is better for short session public worlds were you want quick armies to decimate dfly quickly before quitting as winter start lol

Wurt is better for long sessions in private worlds were you can safely invest in merm guards to absolutely destroy everything + the seasonal fish and wurts immunity to rain turn every season into autumn, great quality of life perks for a long world which webber doesn't have.

To sum up, both characters have unique approaches to using followers without stepping too much on the toes of the other.

Love both characters, as you might have guessed, i play webber on public servers and wurt (joint fav character with walter) on my solo private worlds.

Edit: webber doesn't have as noticable of a downside as wurt (vegetarian) so it allows webber to be more accessible to newer players when compared to wurt, by making his early game easier which balances the fact webber lacks the same late game perks as wurt.

Webber for noob, wurt for pro lol

Merms being stronger than spiders combat wise is kinda debatable atleast in my opinion yea they hit harder so in fights they can participate and survive in they'll finish the fight faster but on the flipside spiders will simply survive more fights meaning overall they'll deal more in more situations.

I honestly don't get what late game Wurt really has over Webber as someone who has played both extensively I know Wurt has seasonal fish but webber's can basically setup a bed and breakfast all thru out the world where he can recover stats, recruit followers and stockpile resources and food.

My issue with the king is realistically he's not worth existence outside of boss fights to get merms with fear resistance which is the only thing he does that matters you could legit remove everything he does but the fear resistance and nothing would really change.

I don't think Wurt is horrible or anything but I do think the king needs reworked or removed merm guardians are fine just being a perm follower upgrade without the baggage.

[Octohunter777]

You make a good point 

[JJ0264]

I think Wurt is harder to start but more rewarding, Wurt can farm logs, rocks, easy living logs, easy cobblestone, 250 max health

Webber has army, easy silk, healing opinions, not forced into the swamp & gold over Wurt.  p.s. spiders eat meat, eyeball and horn

 

1 Berry + 3 Eggs for 50 hunger 20+ can get you through winter, Kelp fronds grow every 3-4 days even in winter/summer

Trail Mix, Figatoni, some veggies give 27 hp, getting jellybeans every 20 days with 30-40 merms guards are Wurt's best health opinions

Moleworm/Tileweeds farms is most likely Wurts best overall source for gold, killing Dfly with merms could be 2nd for more gold

Because Merms don't eat meat and don't judge you like bunnymen, you could farm pigs for hambats/helmets/merm king locations

 

As for improvements

Webber needs white spiders to be different from the yellows like fear immunity + cheaper cave spiders + pricer nurse spiders 

Wurt might need a 3rd type (Farmer merm) passive, tends + uses bins + waters crops, hut's pond doesn't spawn frogs/bugs

Farmer merms = 4 boards, 1 Dessicated Tentacle, either 3 of those --> onions, garlic, peppers are useless for Wurt, even though merm king gives you seeds for them

[ArubaroBeefalo]

1 minute ago, JJ0264 said:

Moleworm/Tileweeds farms is most likely Wurts best overall source for gold, killing Dfly with merms could be 2nd for more gold

celestial portal is the only reasonable way if you plant to build expensive stuff like scaled chest

srly klei, what a unnecessary downside

[abrocator]

3 minutes ago, JJ0264 said:

[snip]

Yeah all of this, spot on.  Late-game Wurt has a lot of potential.  But like I’ve said they should really fix how followers leave you (they should be teleported back to their home when they are unloaded instead of getting stuck on the way home).  But that might be my only need-to-fix for Wurt.

And nice idea about the farm merms.  A late-game crop farming perk would be nice.  They could be like the fishermerms in Shipwrecked who get scared so easily.

[JJ0264]

1 hour ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

celestial portal is the only reasonable way if you plant to build expensive stuff like scaled chest

srly klei, what a unnecessary downside

ya that's true, but I'm excluding the celestial portal + solo

btw farmer merms allow Wurt to place safe ponds anywhere + they uses trinkets

[ArubaroBeefalo]

9 minutes ago, JJ0264 said:

garlic

garlic isnt that bad if you wanna make potatoe pure,for fights like fw is confortable since 1 click and you get 3 stats even if the recipe isnt efficient

[JJ0264]

1 hour ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

garlic isnt that bad if you wanna make potatoe pure,for fights like fw is confortable since 1 click and you get 3 stats even if the recipe isnt efficient

Potato puree: hunger 37.5 (50) sanity 33 (44) health 20 (27)

1 cooked potato: hunger 25 (30) sanity 0 health 20 (27)

the only thing Potato puree has is sanity, keep in mind it requires 2 potatoes and 1 garlic (you lose half the hp)

[ArubaroBeefalo]

4 minutes ago, JJ0264 said:

Potato puree: hunger 37.5 (50) sanity 33 (44) health 20 (27)

1 cooked potato: hunger 25 (30) sanity 0 health 20 (27)

the only thing Potato puree has is sanity, keep in mind it requires 2 potatoes and 1 garlic (you lose half the hp)

i pointed that the recipe isnt efficient but is confortable

[Echsrick]

29 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

i pointed that the recipe isnt efficient but is confortable

spiraled tupers is way better, it only needs 1 potato, and you can use 2 sticks, and 1 not meat filler, it gives 3 health, but its sanity food, wich is 15, but because you only need 1 potato, its pretty much better, since you can make 2 tupers and get more hunger that way

[ArubaroBeefalo]

23 minutes ago, Dr.Medic said:

spiraled tupers is way better, it only needs 1 potato, and you can use 2 sticks, and 1 not meat filler, it gives 3 health, but its sanity food, wich is 15, but because you only need 1 potato, its pretty much better, since you can make 2 tupers and get more hunger that way

and again, i pointed that the recipe isnt efficient but is confortable because you only need 1 click

when iwas learning to fight fw that recipe helped a lot because i needed to time when to eat healing food+eating sanity food. Also is one slot so you can carry other food in your bundle plus, for how stupid are rwys farms, wasting more veggies isnt a problem

i even said what you are saying in the "wolfgang bundle" topic

23 minutes ago, Dr.Medic said:

and you can use 2 sticks

btw im dumb and i always use 2fillers even when a lot of times i have seen and cooket it with 2 sticks xD

[Mike23Ua]

I would still like to see Wurt be able to effectively set up a “Self Sustaining Merm Kingdom” as in- After she does enough… they’ll do the work Themselves.

Such as.. if she brings enough berry bushes or builds a farm near her Merm King then other nearby Merms will feed the king while Wurt is away..

She shouldn’t have to do everything herself all the time…

and that’s what hurts Wurt most, she has to play “Baby Sitter” for her King instead of doing enough tasks that it remains sustained.

Pearl doesn’t suddenly start “Disliking” You again once you befriend her but don’t continue to keep her happy.. so why should I always need to go back to Merm King and have him literally mock me for not being there to feed him? I put the berries/farms near him.. now let the Merm Guards I built near him do all the feeding in my absence.

Webber doesn’t have this problem once Webber sets up his Spider Army he doesn’t need to constantly “Baby Sit” them, he can quite literally get free spiders from Mama Spider..

I feel like even Wolfgang suffers from this type of “Baby Sitting” problem Wurt has, but I won’t get into that because topic is only about Webber/Wurt.

[JJ0264]

4 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

she has to play “Baby Sitter” for her King instead of doing enough tasks that it remains sustained

The merm king dies in 2 days without food - Merm king drops aren't that special since you either can't use it (trinkets) or there easy to gather (seeds/kelp) merms without king have a higher follower time, so it usually best to replace him every time you need to fight a boss. Also imo Warrior merm kind of suck - fighters only, they have 100 hp + 10 dmg over Basic but if the king dies 10- dmg than Basic, tedious to set up then Basic, screech immunity useful for like 2-3 bosses.

Bosses like Bee Q make senses for Warriors but for others I think its better to double it on Basic (W-20 B-30  BK-40 WK-50)

Wurt base in swamp (aka reeds) + can farm logs easily with Basic merms + civil war with Basic merms for fish = 30 BASIC MERMS WILL BE 45 BASIC MERMS THEN 666BASIC MERMS WILL BE...

[blacknight7890]

Haha funny spider boy.

[EssZee]

11 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

I would still like to see Wurt be able to effectively set up a “Self Sustaining Merm Kingdom” as in- After she does enough… they’ll do the work Themselves.

Such as.. if she brings enough berry bushes or builds a farm near her Merm King then other nearby Merms will feed the king while Wurt is away..

She shouldn’t have to do everything herself all the time…

and that’s what hurts Wurt most, she has to play “Baby Sitter” for her King instead of doing enough tasks that it remains sustained.

Pearl doesn’t suddenly start “Disliking” You again once you befriend her but don’t continue to keep her happy.. so why should I always need to go back to Merm King and have him literally mock me for not being there to feed him? I put the berries/farms near him.. now let the Merm Guards I built near him do all the feeding in my absence.

Webber doesn’t have this problem once Webber sets up his Spider Army he doesn’t need to constantly “Baby Sit” them, he can quite literally get free spiders from Mama Spider..

I feel like even Wolfgang suffers from this type of “Baby Sitting” problem Wurt has, but I won’t get into that because topic is only about Webber/Wurt.

empire builder wurt sounds like so much fun tbh. having a taste of my own merm kingdom is why she's my favourite character right now