I hand an epiphany, maybe I sound dumb idk

[viberr]

1 minute ago, Gi-Go said:

Like whom? The only one I can think of is Toros - a truly loyal Wolfgang main. He will play him even if his perks are bad and boring. But he has some kind of history of hating on speed boost. Something about it being annoying during kiting or something. I still don't really get it. And that's about it, only one reasonable person dislikes speed, and his reasoning for it is a very personal issue. 

yeah but I haven't really seen many complain about the speed cept you and the guy with the troll face pfp

[Gi-Go]

8 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

The thing you have to look at and consider the most is reading his Compendium description: because that is a brief overview of how the character is meant to be portrayed and play.

Only portrayed. Not played.

Webber is portrayed as a kid who is a pure soul and is friends with spiders, but his whole playstyle can only be described as neverending violence and abuse of spiders. 

Gameplay is the only thing that matters. I'm not saying that your values are meaningless, I'm just writing it. 

[Toroic]

6 minutes ago, Gi-Go said:

Like whom? The only one I can think of is Toros - a truly loyal Wolfgang main. He will play him even if his perks are bad and boring. But he has some kind of history of hating on speed boost. Something about it being annoying during kiting or something. I still don't really get it. And that's about it, only one reasonable person dislikes speed, and his reasoning for it is a very personal issue. 

Getting a little tired of you putting words in my mouth without the decency to ping me about it.

Linear scaling on both speed and damage is poor design, because the optimal way to use it demanded micromanaging the hunger stat.  The new design doesn’t require as much micromanagement.  Unless you’re fighting wimpy has insignificant downsides, and maintaining mighty is far less resource intensive.

General purpose speed boosts are super good but hard to balance with other characters and not thematically linked to anything thematic about victorian era strongmen.  It’s an easy thing to cut to create space to buff other parts of Wolfgang’s kit significantly without increasing his overall power level.  Klei apparently wanted to reduce Wolfgang’s overall power level and increase the strongman theme and it appears they cut the speed to enable that.

It’s the logical choice within that context.  Wolfgang is still a powerful character and he has some fantastic synergies with warly in particular, and there’s now better distinction between him and Wigfrid because she has better durability now but lower damage.

[Gi-Go]

Like I said, I have no clue how to ping people 

[W0l0l0]

3 minutes ago, Gi-Go said:

Like I said, I have no clue how to ping people 

Use the "@" key. For example, @Gi-Go@Gi-Go, works on mobile, and likely computer too. Hope this helps! 

[Gi-Go]

1 minute ago, W0l0l0 said:

Use the "@" key. For example, @Gi-Go@Gi-Go, works on mobile, and likely computer too. Hope this helps! 

Thanks, @W0l0l0

I tried

[Gi-Go]

11 minutes ago, Toros said:

Linear scaling on both speed and damage is poor design, because the optimal way to use it demanded micromanaging the hunger stat.  The new design doesn’t require as much micromanagement.  Unless you’re fighting wimpy has insignificant downsides, and maintaining mighty is far less resource intensive.

Absolutely true. But why rework one and delete the another one. Was that the same in your Wolfgang mod? Did you reworked damage but deleted speed?

14 minutes ago, Toros said:

General purpose speed boosts are super good but hard to balance with other characters and not thematically linked to anything thematic about victorian era strongmen.  It’s an easy thing to cut to create space to buff other parts of Wolfgang’s kit significantly without increasing his overall power level.  Klei apparently wanted to reduce Wolfgang’s overall power level and increase the strongman theme and it appears they cut the speed to enable that.

I love thematically thematic characters as much as the next guy, which is why I love gym and even dumbbells, even tho most people think staying afk a little bit is a time waste. But do we really need to cut out all gameplay perks that aren't perfectly fitting into theme? Wolfgang is just a dumb strongman who is easy to scare stereotype, not a very deep theme to build character around. Willow has Bernie and that's not pyro themed.

Klei are wrong. I don't think this is something I need to explain. Even if it's their game they still don't know much about balance, which is why they rely on forums. And forums provided them with misinformation. I don't blame klei, but they sure did made a mistake in balance.

24 minutes ago, Toros said:

It’s the logical choice within that context.  Wolfgang is still a powerful character and he has some fantastic synergies with warly in particular, and there’s now better distinction between him and Wigfrid because she has better durability now but lower damage.

Wolfgang is very weak right now and needs buff instead. I'd say 2.5 damage, and a speed boost. Then he could match Wendy and Wanda - the only characters he should be balanced around. No point in nerfing combat character because he is better than working or minion character because of course he is - combat is the most important aspect of survival. Duh. Wigfrid is a tutorial character and should be ignored when it comes to balance, because people abandon her once they get better at the game. Tanking is not all that useful and everyone can do it. 

Oh and lastly, isn't Warly spice an overkill? Multiplayer throws balance out of the window and bosses are being bullied at that point. 

[Mike23Ua]

26 minutes ago, Gi-Go said:

Thanks, @W0l0l0

I tried

When you @ someone start typing their name & it will give you a list of names to choose from as you start typing like @Gi-Go or @Toros that’s how you ping people (try not to ping the Devs too often though, they are super busy people)

Anyway upon thinking it over: Wolfgang has a Myriad of Phobias as in he is Scooby and Shaggy Levels scared of many things, I mean just Look at how fast he jumps out of the way of little puny mouse in his animated short.

Now how do you give Wolfgang back his speed without directly giving him back his boring and broken constant speed?

Well.. I wanted to be a game designer so I looked around at what the game has to Offer, and I thought to myself:

“you know what would really be cool as heck?” Temporary TEMPORARY not permanent for cramming carrot in his mouth speed buffs.

What if when a Pipspook spawns: Wolfgang gains a frightened perk where he runs faster away from it? 

Like if I was a Scooby & shaggy levels scaredy cat I would high tail it out of there the moment I saw a spooky ghost.

This also gives him TEAM Synergy with Wendy or a Dead player.

Wouldn't you know it Wendy just so happens to have a a little potion that increases the movement speed of Dead players.

Wolfgang is not scared of Abigail (because that would just be too easy of a synergy and also defeat the entire purpose of Abigails petal buff, Wolfgang has been around Wendy/Abigail long enough that he knows Abigail isn’t a threat.. but a randomly spawning Pipspook? Or one being tagged along by Wendy?

Where Wolfgang?? Don’t know all I saw was a cloud of smoke where he used to be standing.

Wolfgang is also equally horrified of possessed dancing Teddy Bears or Enlarged BERNIE.

Dont you see it? TEAM WORK… and even without a Wendy anywhere on the server luck would have it: Pipspook still spawn for that temporary speed buff.

 

[Gi-Go]

18 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Speed boost from fear

Oh, you just proposed fundament to an actual great perk that would be both more fun, and more thematically fitting, as well as being very useful, and fitting into combat filled playstyle that the old boring speed boost was missing.

Fear is represented in this game with sanity draining auras. So everything that dosen't give Walter sanity drain, but gives it to other characters - could give Wolfgang speed boost that increases based on sanity drain respectively. I'm drulling just thinking of gameplay possibilities this provides, from easy kiting to running really fast in the dark. 

Such a shame it's too late now. Meaby I should make a post about it and klei will read and say "heck why not" and add it? 

[Mike23Ua]

I don’t think he should have speed boosts from everything.. that would defeat the entire purpose of removing speed from him at all, but think of it more as a temporary consumable or in smites case:

“I need the Jungle Buff!”

Its a temporary buff that goes away, if you don’t play Smite I’m sure you’ve played Mario kart or sonic where you hit a stationary speed ramp and go faster for a short time before needing to hit another ramp.

Similar to how the GYMS work currently.. but without the whole stopping to engage in a Mini-Game and something Wolfgang can’t just craft himself and place all over everywhere.

But you have yet to give me one legit reasoning why the character who has higher health then most, can wear armor without movement penalties, and deals twice as much damage so fights are over twice as fast.. also needs a permanent speed perk.

[Gi-Go]

31 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

I don’t think he should have speed boosts from everything.. that would defeat the entire purpose of removing speed from him at all, but think of it more as a temporary consumable or in smites case:

Yeah, you think pipspooks giving speed is an upside so I figured. 

[Frashaw27]

42 minutes ago, Gi-Go said:

Wendy and Wanda

That... is a terrible way to balence, anything. Balancing around the best will always lead to terrible results as evert thing just becomes unreasonably broken to match it. While I'm not saying that it couldn't be a place to go from, balancing any characters to it just makes them broken and boring instead of having a diverse roster of things their good and bad at. That's also not mentioning that these two aren't compatible to Wolfgang at all im terms of perks. Wanda needs a lot of set up to get to the teleporting witch you often see, and needs to be near death to have comparable dps to Wolfgang. Wendy, is different because all of her perks are essentially focused on Abigail. While that's not bad, she is also at a pure disadvantage when fighting if Abiagil dies, leading to a playstyle where you have to watch both Health bars to ensure you don't die or become insanely crippled. Wolfgang doesn't have to deal with any negative downsides to being Mighty, and that's why the speed boost was removed.

The reason why so many people, like me, think the 2x damage for Wolfgang is so good alone, is because you don't have to deal with a negative to reach it, and that's fine. Once you get big, you don't have to worry about anything else other them getting the meter back up. It's his big perk that others only get to share with when they deal with something to compensate. Other perks are designed like this too. Wx will always be the ruler of speed, but Wormwood gets to comparable at the cost of needing constant maintenance. The speed made him broken as he didn't have to sacrifice anything or focus on anything else for it, he just did what he always did usually.

58 minutes ago, Gi-Go said:

Wigfrid is a tutorial character and should be ignored when it comes to balance, because people abandon her once they get better at the game

That's also a really bad take. Wigfrid has grown out of Wolfgang's shadow ever since her rework, and even before then. Her songs really do make an impact at reducing the amount of resources needed for a fight, and even giving lesser used items more of a chance. The Glass cutter gets reachs well over double a dark Swords durability against a shadow opponent, the Guardian's crown is much better since she will always gain more sanity then she loses, leading a constant dps buff, she makes general tanking better as you'll have to heal significantly less, etc. Wigfrid isn't a tutorial character, no character is, she has actual depth and intrique to her kit, which Wolfgang now also has with his new kit. While I see that your idea to that Wolfgang needs a speed buff is an opinion, I also recognize that it comes from wanting something that was deliberately bad game design that allowed you to get on the non struggle bus, rather than a character that had an actual unique playstyle and goals instead.

I, among several other characters that have spoken up, enjoy the new Wolfgang better than the old one. You're in the minority because you upheld the speed boost in such high regard, you can't see the character that doesn't have it.

[Falkenpelz]

@HowlVoid, you amaze and worry me.

[Cloakingsumo198]

26 minutes ago, Frashaw27 said:

Snip

Don't care about speed, but not considering Wendy and wigfrid easy, beginner friendly characters? Strange take, they got more depth and stronger from their reworks no complaint there but still they aren't incredibly difficult I'm pretty sure Wendy can just immediately resummon abigail. Also with Wanda I always see people talk about being old for DPS but that's just taking risk for reward, she still has increased range from the whip of hers and in her other forms still does more damage than the other non combat survivors on top of all her insane utility use. So new Wandas can start young for fights and as they slowly die, get more damage to hopefully end the fight sooner before they inevitable perish. "Pro" Wanda's can just start old and never die the end. Still op in a different way.

Wolfgang is molded around avoiding being wimpy that's his big downside, it's easily worked around by being attentive but deadly when caught out. All he had was speed and damage his speed is gone, his damage is consistent, he lost 100 hp and the ability to achieve his power easily is crippled. What more do you want? I and a couple other people have given tons of tweak ideas because we knew how to play him before and want him to feel more fluid I'll also remind you that the people who think this rework is COMPLETELY fine is also a minority, most people still want more changes and tweaks.

[Gi-Go]

Downsides are a construct of your mind. Only upsides are real.

[Cloakingsumo198]

Wanda mains when they go to monkey biome and hammer a couple of walls.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

2 hours ago, Gi-Go said:

Wolfgang is very weak right now and needs buff instead

yep, very weak. Wilson rules

1 hour ago, Gi-Go said:

Oh, you just proposed fundament to an actual great perk that would be both more fun, and more thematically fitting, as well as being very useful, and fitting into combat filled playstyle that the old boring speed boost was missing.

Fear is represented in this game with sanity draining auras. So everything that dosen't give Walter sanity drain, but gives it to other characters - could give Wolfgang speed boost that increases based on sanity drain respectively. I'm drulling just thinking of gameplay possibilities this provides, from easy kiting to running really fast in the dark. 

Such a shame it's too late now. Meaby I should make a post about it and klei will read and say "heck why not" and add it? 

that would make the character a lot more deeper than is now, i like it as you suggest, based on auras not in the total sanity. He is afraid of the dark and monsters so has sense and wont make him have 24/7 speed boost, at most at dusk and night if you decide to not wear a sanity cloth that surpases the sanity drain from dark. You sacrifice sanity reg for speed

it really opens a lot of strategies with not so used items like night lights, the kelp garland etc

1 hour ago, Gi-Go said:

Such a shame it's too late now. Meaby I should make a post about it and klei will read and say "heck why not" and add it? 

maybe if we make some noise...

[HowlVoid]

I believe Zark said in discord that the team had agreed that speed was not making a return. "Period". 

That's actually fine to me tbh if the whole team has unanimously agreed to not revisit a potential aspect of a character.

What I didn't like is that this was not communicated to us. Not sure when this decision was made, but a lot us could have refocused our ideas on other aspects of Wolfgang rather than waste our valuable time on things the team is completely ignoring. 

Kinda irked me tbh.

In other words don't waste time trying to bring speed back, at all. Any posts you make is only to fight other forumers, unless that's your thing... Then go for it.

[Cloakingsumo198]

2 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

I believe Zark said in discord that the team had agreed that speed was not making a return. "Period". 

That's actually fine to me tbh if the whole team has unanimously agreed to not revisit a potential aspect of a character.

What I didn't like is that this was not communicated to us. Not sure when this decision was made, but a lot us could have refocused our ideas on other aspects of Wolfgang rather than waste our valuable time on things the team is completely ignoring. 

Kinda irked me tbh.

Where'd they say that? Kinda sucks wish we knew.

[Mike23Ua]

11 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

I believe Zark said in discord that the team had agreed that speed was not making a return. "Period". 

That's actually fine to me tbh if the whole team has unanimously agreed to not revisit a potential aspect of a character.

What I didn't like is that this was not communicated to us. Not sure when this decision was made, but a lot us could have refocused our ideas on other aspects of Wolfgang rather than waste our valuable time on things the team is completely ignoring. 

Kinda irked me tbh.

They’re gonna take the 3 week holiday vacation and then come back hopefully with Wolfgang improvements.. His current rework is rough around the edges- give them time to come up with ways to improve upon it.

But as far as giving speed back? Good I’m glad it’s gone forever that’s a sigh of relief: Now just portray being Mighty better!

[HowlVoid]

1 minute ago, Cloakingsumo198 said:

Where'd they say that? Kinda sucks wish we knew.

On discord, I only saw a screenshot of it.

 

Just now, Mike23Ua said:

They’re gonna take the 3 week holiday vacation and then come back hopefully with Wolfgang improvements.. His current rework is rough around the edges- give them time to come up with ways to improve upon it.

That's all good and dandy, what I'm saying is that I wish I knew that speed is completely off the table. I think it would have honestly stopped a lot of discord in the forums from ever even happening if some of us knew we were fighting a lost cause. 

[Cloakingsumo198]

4 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

On discord, I only saw a screenshot of it.

 

That's all good and dandy, what I'm saying is that I wish I knew that speed is completely off the table. I think it would have honestly stopped a lot of discord in the forums from ever even happening if some of us knew we were fighting a lost cause. 

Yeah I did a whole funeral and someone else did a emotional support group from all the casualties. oh wait it was howl, and that speech didn't emotional support me at all lmao.

[-Variant]

7 minutes ago, Cloakingsumo198 said:

Where'd they say that? Kinda sucks wish we knew.

Here's the statement from the public DST Discord.

[Cloakingsumo198]

1 minute ago, -Variant said:

Here's the statement from the public DST Discord.

[HowlVoid]

So no more ideas about speed guys, throw them all away here: