Wolfgang rework is AWESOME (and it also sucks)

[Gi-Go]

Since there are a few separate topics with the same idea of complaining about the rework, I decided to make one as well but instead talking about why the rework is AWESOME (and why it sucks too). 

Why it's awesome:

1. Consistant damage is a lot better than munching on honey every 5 seconds. It also makes tentacle spike a meta weapon for general purpose combat as it deals 102 damage - just enough to get past the threshold. 

2. Gym is fun. Gameplay wise it's a power altar. Wolfgang comes to it once a day to do prayers. Having a recharge station is both more efficient and more fun than just eating. It will also reward you for killing a boss. 

3. No more rapid hunger drain. I don't care, but I'm sure there are a lot of people who prefer not to share their food portion with forever hungry friend Wolfgang. 

4. You can throw dumbbells at people. Self explanatory. 

5. Rework fits into fast paced simple minded playstyle of Wolfgang. GYM! KILL! EAT! REPEAT!

6. Klei managed to keep the "Wolfgang is best at full belly" idea while removing the team harm mechanic. I'm impressed with their creativity. 

7. Wolfgang can use piggy back! And marble armor! Not that those are meta items, just having more options is always a good thing. 

8. Wolfgang rows faster. I love to be in the ocean content as little as possble. Thanks klei. 

9. Dumbbells have a cute animation of working out when Wolfgang is mighty. Nothing practical but puts smile on my face. 

10. Wolfgang is better at pvp now. Only 0.0000000000001% of players care, but I'm one of them so it matters to me. Main difficulty of pvp is that it's impossble to kill people when they run away, without using tricky items, and people always run away when their hp gets low. Dumbbells provide a range weapon with no pvp penalty on damage, and also make sleep darts easy to get. 

Now, why the rework sucks:

1. They removed speed boost and that speed boost alone makes pre-reworked Wolfgang better than all of the things I mentioned above. 

The end. 

[Duck986]

._.'

[hhh2]

I'm no longer salty about the rework so i agree with this post. the rework is good but it does make wolfgang less fun to play IMO. Please add the speedboost back.

[HowlVoid]

Based.

[Cheggf]

8 hours ago, Gi-Go said:

Klei managed to keep the "Wolfgang is best at full belly" idea while removing the team harm mechanic.

I think the team harm has been amped up to 11. Instead of him taking some easily replaceable food now he wants to construct expensive gyms everywhere.

[. . .]

Wolfgang's rework was a big oof

[Toros]

4 hours ago, Cheggf said:

I think the team harm has been amped up to 11. Instead of him taking some easily replaceable food now he wants to construct expensive gyms everywhere.

…what in the world makes you think gyms are expensive?

[SecretPizzaMan]

23 minutes ago, Toros said:

…what in the world makes you think gyms are expensive?

Because 9 grass and 12 logs are too much, my world has two trees and grass in the entire world. Klei please make gym cost -200 wood and -3000 grass or I will uninstall >:(

[sudoku]

16 hours ago, hhh2 said:

The rework is good but it does make wolfgang less fun to play

Yes, a good rework should always strive to make their characters less fun to play. Btw have you seen how beautiful it is outside today the grass is blue and the sky is green!

[hhh2]

7 minutes ago, sudoku said:

Yes, a good rework should always strive to make their characters less fun to play. Btw have you seen how beautiful it is outside today the grass is blue and the sky is green!

I mean balance wise i guess. + it is my opinion, I know a lot of people are happy with the rework

[sudoku]

18 minutes ago, hhh2 said:

I know a lot of people are happy with the rework

Mostly the people who i have seen that are happy are players who never played Wolfgang to begin with either because they thought he was boring or op. 

I dont really care about the speed boost but theres no denying that it was a perk that defined how you played, so thats less that Wolfgang can do. Perhaps this means he is less op but this directly causes the arrow to swing in the other direction of him being even more boring.

So my question is then how is Wolfgang not considered boring after this rework? Because you can play a dumb minigame for 5 seconds every now and then? Is it cute, yes, did they do a nice job on the animations, yes. But how long until the novelty wears off and discussions for a second rework begin I wonder.

 

[Cloakingsumo198]

13 minutes ago, sudoku said:

my question is then how is Wolfgang not considered boring after this rework? Because you can play a dumb minigame for 5 seconds every now and then? Is it cute, yes, did they do a nice job on the animations, yes. But how long until the novelty wears off and discussions for a second rework begin I wonder.

 

This.  Wolfgang isn't fundamentally different, nothing was added to him to make him more interesting, certain qualities were stripped from him, and his mini game while cool is really just a change to how he achieves his now blander buffs.

[MondayNight]

5 hours ago, Toros said:

…what in the world makes you think gyms are expensive?

If wanting a semblance of efficiency you must do them all over map, in key spots you plan to take-down bosses or swarm/mobs regularly. And, since you also need extra food while working out/fighting to keep/extend Mighty! too, you probably need a Crock Pot and Fridge there as well, possibly a Plot Farm depending on play-style (not everyone does day 10 BQ speed-run and Wolf's refresh is supposed to be geared towards player-base at large, not solely advanced micro-management-efficient players well into end-game content early on). This compered to just chug-chug stuff off the land on the go is expensive. Not mentioning the new idle-clicking mini-game, either from Dumb-bells or Gym - and if I recall correctly even you in past wrote something along the lines of "idle game-play watching passively character animation for prolonged/recurrent times is very bad game design".

[Gashzer]

Thematically speed boost doesn't make sense, need to change wolfgang from a strongman to an olympian/athlete. 

Or maybe klei needs to go full warbucks on wolfgang, scrap him as he's way too controversial and make a new character better suited to the wants of the speedrunner side of this community.

P.s i think the rework is great now for both non-hardcore veterans and new/casual players.

[MondayNight]

28 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

P.s i think the rework is great now for both non-hardcore veterans and new/casual players.

Because player-bulk at large (comprised mostly from newbies/noobs/casuals) will chose a "strongman" character expecting it to be... strong, but default most play-time to a Wimpy Wes with greater sanity drain? Don't forget vast majority of players struggle to even reach Science tier 1 builds; and, via out-of-gate Stone Dumb-bell, they'll be forever Wimpy if not just standing in a place for considerable amount of time and solely watch a pumping-up idle animation.. to be Normal Wolf; to shortly default yet again into Wimpy. Once more: Wolfgang rework, as any other character rework, is targeted at entire player-base, not exclusively efficient advanced/knowledgeable rushers as it now stands. And this is only the proverbial tip of iceberg in relation to how half-baked Wolfgang's rework seems to be.

[Cloakingsumo198]

8 minutes ago, x0-VERSUS-1y said:

Because player-bulk at large (comprised mostly from newbies/noobs/casuals) will chose a "strongman" character expecting it to be... strong, but default most play-time to a Wimpy Wes with greater sanity drain? Don't forget vast majority of players struggle to even reach Science tier 1 builds, and via out-of-gate Stone Dumb-bell, they'll be forever Wimpy if not just standing in a place for considerable amount of time and solely watch a pumping-up idle animation.. to be Normal Wolf; to shortly default yet again into Wimpy. Once more: Wolfgang rework, as any other character rework, is geared towards entire player-base, not exclusively efficient advanced/knowledgeable rushers as it now stands. And this is only the proverbial tip of iceberg in relation to how half-baked Wolfgang's rework seems to be.

Yeah and the more i think about it.  Forum users aren't exactly the most casual DST player they are at least somewhat knowledged in game mechanics and you have to actually choose to participate in the beta branch to feel Wolfgang's changes.

 

The most casual of our casual gamers have probably yet to hear or try out these changes and aren't hear to voice it. We will see those voices in game lol

[Gashzer]

16 minutes ago, x0-VERSUS-1y said:

Because player-bulk at large (comprised mostly from newbies/noobs/casuals) will chose a "strongman" character expecting it to be... strong, but default most play-time to a Wimpy Wes with greater sanity drain? Don't forget vast majority of players struggle to even reach Science tier 1 builds; and, via out-of-gate Stone Dumb-bell, they'll be forever Wimpy if not just standing in a place for considerable amount of time and solely watch a pumping-up idle animation.. to be Normal Wolf; to shortly default yet again into Wimpy. Once more: Wolfgang rework, as any other character rework, is targeted at entire player-base, not exclusively efficient advanced/knowledgeable rushers as it now stands. And this is only the proverbial tip of iceberg in relation to how half-baked Wolfgang's rework seems to be.

Noobs or young children playing this game will die without someone carrying them no matter the character they chose however new wolfgang has a pretty intuitive learning design to him, stone dumbell that he starts with teaches new players of wolfgang, the mightiness gain mechanic and the new crafting tab clearly organises his new crafts so new players will never struggle finding his crafts (i wish wurt had all her crafts under a new clear tab...)

The gold dumbell and gym are both easily acquired early game using common resources. If you aren't experienced enough at dst to make either you are doomed no matter who you play. 

I'm still haunted by the traumatic experience of watching so many noobs die of starvation rapidly with old wolfgang so atleast that won't happen as quickly now.... lol

[ArubaroBeefalo]

3 hours ago, sudoku said:

Mostly the people who i have seen that are happy are players who never played Wolfgang to begin with either because they thought he was boring or op. 

i had a long run as wolfgang and i played him a lot in DS

 

[SecretPizzaMan]

27 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

i had a long run as wolfgang and i played him a lot in DS

 

They were extra busted in DS since every mob died in like 3 hits to him.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

4 minutes ago, SecretPizzaMan said:

They were extra busted in DS since every mob died in like 3 hits to him.

yes, totally agree. Wolfgang in single plsyer has 0 sense but when i played DS i was a noob so thst double damage was never noticeable and not i only would play it because i changed the lua files so the HP and damage of the mobs and bosses is increased (aslong with slightly buff to the star caller staff and a nerfs to coffe) 

[Toros]

4 hours ago, x0-VERSUS-1y said:

If wanting a semblance of efficiency you must do them all over map, in key spots you plan to take-down bosses or swarm/mobs regularly. And, since you also need extra food while working out/fighting to keep/extend Mighty! too, you probably need a Crock Pot and Fridge there as well, possibly a Plot Farm depending on play-style (not everyone does day 10 BQ speed-run and Wolf's refresh is supposed to be geared towards player-base at large, not solely advanced micro-management-efficient players well into end-game content early on). This compered to just chug-chug stuff off the land on the go is expensive. Not mentioning the new idle-clicking mini-game, either from Dumb-bells or Gym - and if I recall correctly even you in past wrote something along the lines of "idle game-play watching passively character animation for prolonged/recurrent times is very bad game design".

I don’t believe that is a quote of mine, it is something I agree with, and also not very relevant to the discussion at hand as gyms are active and workout times are short.

You are overestimating the number of gyms required for efficiency.  Many bosses come to you, fighting swarms should primarily be done within effective range of your base gym, and you should never spend more than 15 seconds working out.

You can easily top off with gembell before a boss fight, belt of hunger reduces workout costs by 40%, and you can put a gym on a boat for all lunar and ocean content.

[MondayNight]

3 hours ago, Gashzer said:

Noobs or young children playing this game will die without someone carrying them no matter the character they chose however new wolfgang has a pretty intuitive learning design to him, stone dumbell that he starts with teaches new players of wolfgang, the mightiness gain mechanic and the new crafting tab clearly organises his new crafts so new players will never struggle finding his crafts (i wish wurt had all her crafts under a new clear tab...)

The gold dumbell and gym are both easily acquired early game using common resources. If you aren't experienced enough at dst to make either you are doomed no matter who you play. 

I'm still haunted by the traumatic experience of watching so many noobs die of starvation rapidly with old wolfgang so atleast that won't happen as quickly now.... lol

It's about levels of punishment and/or faulty design enforced on bulk player-base (mentioned newbies/noobs/casuals - also they're not the same thing, and I don't know what that has to do specifically with young children). Current proposed Wolf rework is clearly more punishing towards this vast category, and defeats the character description expectations: you'll mostly be Wimpy if not setting up a base/Gym in rushing manner and gaining access to superior Dumb-bells. And, of course, the idling "play" of watching some animation (pumping-up) mandatory stationary - doing this on-and-on-and on doesn't equate fun, at least not for me.

 

3 minutes ago, Toros said:

I don’t believe that is a quote of mine, it is something I agree with, and also not very relevant to the discussion at hand as gyms are active and workout times are short.

Debatable for Gyms, their clicking mini-game isn't fun for me personally and am sure for many others (complaining in various new Wolfgang-related topics). Still biggest problem is with Dumb-bells, they aren't active play, you're being forced into doing them a lot and that's where I see mentioned bad design - namely in the fact you can't do them on the go/while moving.

 

7 minutes ago, Toros said:

You are overestimating the number of gyms required for efficiency.  Many bosses come to you, fighting swarms should primarily be done within effective range of your base gym, and you should never spend more than 15 seconds working out.

M-G nests, DF, BQ, Mosaic and Deciduous Forest(s) Klaus spawns, Moon Stone event, 3 Toad spawns, AG, AFw just to name most important ones. Then, once more, the problem with repeated watching of an idle animation (Dumb-bells), even if is for 5s: doing them ad infinitum, in rounds, all through Wolf's run is biggest issue imo with this concept. Again, solution would be: doing them while moving.

Rest of what you point, additional kinda-mandatory equipment to prolong the time in-between idle-animation sessions, is advanced middle-to-late game stuff, circumventing a faulty design to begin with.

 

As a parallel, I don't know why KLei scrapped the idea of doing push-ups or-whatever-exercise it was via lifting mobs - at least that would've been mildly entertaining, perhaps with possibility of throwing those mobs when Mighty; would've been comedic if nothing else.

[Cheggf]

10 hours ago, Toros said:

…what in the world makes you think gyms are expensive?

On a public server where rocks are already so scarce you don't see what's expensive about a structure that takes over half a stack of rocks each, even ignoring the rest of the materials? What I'm wondering is what in the world makes you guys think food is so expensive, I see food turn to rot all the time and never have issues getting fed. Public servers frequently have so few rocks people can't even get thermals, but I don't remember starving on one.

[Gi-Go]

2 minutes ago, Cheggf said:

On a public server where rocks are already so scarce you don't see what's expensive about a structure that takes over half a stack of rocks each, even ignoring the rest of the materials? What I'm wondering is what in the world makes you guys think food is so expensive, I see food turn to rot all the time and never have issues getting fed. Public servers frequently have so few rocks people can't even get thermals, but I don't remember starving on one.

Well said. People seemed to miss your point of logs/rocks > food. 

Anyways the "team harm mechanic" is just a myth. Kinda like "kick wes he is useless" or "kick Wolfgang he is mighty and not fighting anything".

I've seen both demands more than I needed, and people who complain like that will never figure out if a building is a waste or has use (hence they keep both tier 1 and tier 2 crafting stations at base). 

[Gashzer]

54 minutes ago, x0-VERSUS-1y said:

It's about levels of punishment and/or faulty design enforced on bulk player-base (mentioned newbies/noobs/casuals - also they're not the same thing, and I don't know what that has to do specifically with young children). Current proposed Wolf rework is clearly more punishing towards this vast category, and defeats the character description expectations: you'll mostly be Wimpy if not setting up a base/Gym in rushing manner and gaining access to superior Dumb-bells. And, of course, the idling "play" of watching some animation (pumping-up) mandatory stationary - doing this on-and-on-and on doesn't equate fun, at least not for me.

But the level of punishment for old wolfgang is much much higher for the bulk player-base, noobs came to your base, ate all the food in the fridge then starved to death, they never used wolfgangs double damage or speed buff to do anything - yes they still don't with the new wolfgang with the noobs i've played with in the beta, atleast now they don't raid your fridge as badly and new wimpy form only has a downside for combat now which noobs fail at with every character anyway!

I mentioned that young kids play this game because alot of young kids do, obivously because dst has a very child friendly aesthetic which hides a fairly hardcore game for new players. Kids will always be terrible at dst, by themselves atleast. Dst has always been a hard "uncompromising survival game", it's not a faulty design.

Literally if you start at 100 mightiness, it lasts 2.5days until you hit wimpy as long as your hunger stays above 100. You telling me you can't spare 30secs every 20minutes to get back to 100 mightiness? That says more about your time management skills than the characters downside.

43 minutes ago, Cheggf said:

On a public server where rocks are already so scarce you don't see what's expensive about a structure that takes over half a stack of rocks each, even ignoring the rest of the materials? What I'm wondering is what in the world makes you guys think food is so expensive, I see food turn to rot all the time and never have issues getting fed. Public servers frequently have so few rocks people can't even get thermals, but I don't remember starving on one.

Rocks are scarce? you only need 6 for a gym... oh god lads how are we ever gonna find 6 rocks.......

You're wasting rocks on thermals in a pub server? Winter hats have the same insulation and you get like 40 wool from shaving one herd of beefalo, 4silk isn't big ask either.