Wilson Rework?

[qunas]

4 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

because isnt about difficulty lmao. Is about learning in game mechanics which, with Wilson, you learn them in a vanilla scenario. Is like wigfrid, she is also so beguinner friendly but, like wendy, isnt the best character to learn the game because will create toxic behaviour like tanking or not needing to know how to recover sanity or HP. Sure,im not saying that wendy and wigfrid can't teach things to a player but the BEST character to learn is wilson

 

2 minutes ago, goblinball said:

You’re teaching people how to play wrong. Wendy is a bad beginner character because while she makes the game easier, she does so by not requiring the players to actually learn basic combat. To new players, Abigail is a crutch, and how will one learn to walk if they require a crutch just to stand up?

It makes sence how you would learn basic combat with Wilson, but do you all really think a new player is going to learn this after a bunch of deaths? No, they won't, they would ask for a refund that's all. You have to hook them into the game, show them what's there and make them WANT to learn combat. You're just assuming a new player without any knowledge of what the game is, will want to learn combat for some reason

[ArubaroBeefalo]

10 minutes ago, cropo said:

Everyone I taught to play learned how to play far easier with Abigail taking away 50% of the stress in any given situation. It allowed them to compartmentalize the challenges far better and now they can play as other characters far easier. As Wilson, they die, die, and then die again because everything is thrown at them at once. With Wendy, only the survival aspect is truly thrown at you. Sure, you can't outright solo Deerclops with Abigail alone, but she puts you in a situation where you can reach Deerclops in the first place.

see? for that you dont understand our point. Learning certain parts of the game in a much more relaxed way doesnt exclude using wilson to learn what abigail  or wigfrid dont allow you to learn

because wendy exist we cant have different characters or even a blank character?

[cropo]

Just now, ArubaroBeefalo said:

see? for that you dont understand our point. Learning certain parts of the game in a much more relaxed way doesnt exclude using wilson to learn what abigail  or wigfrid dont allow you to learn

because wendy exist we cant have different characters or even a blank character?

If that's your aim that's fine, but calling Wilson the tutorial character or the designated learning character becomes a falsehood, he's not the character you recommend to new players to learn the game. He's the character you play if you already know how to play the game and are fine with having a blank slate.

 

He does not learn the beginning mechanics of the game in a more relaxed way, he is immediately subjected to the full fury of everything the game has to challenge you with from the start. Characters like Wormwood, Maxwell, and Wurt may be even harder than Wilson himself is for learning the beginning of the game, but Wendy is by far the most lenient option when first learning the game. You don't have to have everything thrown at you at once to ''learn it''. People don't pick Wendy and go ''Well guess I'm never gonna learn how to kite and fight normally''. They learn just like everyone else does. If a player is dead-set on not teaching themselves game mechanics because a character can circumvent them, they were going to do so regardless of whether or not a blank slate character exists.

 

Keep him the way he is, don't recommend him as the tutorial character unless the person you're recommending the game to wants to die a hundred times with no assistance or help or advantages at all to do anything about it and is a dead-weight drain on the rest of the group until they ''git gud''.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

4 minutes ago, cropo said:

Keep him the way he is, don't recommend him as the tutorial character unless the person you're recommending the game to wants to die a hundred times with no assistance or help or advantages at all to do anything about it and is a dead-weight drain on the rest of the group until they ''git gud''.

wasnt that the point of this game?

[cropo]

Just now, ArubaroBeefalo said:

wasnt that the point of this game?

So do you admit that playing Wilson is a needless reach-around to teaching yourself the game when you could have an easier, more relaxed time learning it in bits and pieces with a character like Wendy?

 

You can't have your cake and eat it here, what's the statement on Wilson? Is he a beginner-friendly character who teaches the player how to play the game properly, which they wouldn't be able to properly do with another character or is he a champion of the flagellation players are expected to go through to earn the respect of their peers?

[ArubaroBeefalo]

Just now, cropo said:

So do you admit that playing Wilson is a needless reach-around to teaching yourself the game when you could have an easier, more relaxed time learning it in bits and pieces with a character like Wendy?

 

You can't have your cake and eat it here, what's the statement on Wilson? Is he a beginner-friendly character who teaches the player how to play the game properly, which they wouldn't be able to properly do with another character or is he a champion of the flagellation players are expected to go through to earn the respect of their peers?

?????????

[goblinball]

21 minutes ago, cropo said:

Picking him makes the game harder,

I’d argue for beginner players, wilson actually makes the game easier compared to most characters. Wilson seems bad to so-called “veteran” players because he has no perks which can be exploited for ridiculous benefits. On the other hand, new players don’t know how to take advantage of character perks, excluding maybe obvious stuff like “woodie has an axe!”, the amount of new Webber’s I’ve seen in public lobbies who aren’t even aware he can tame spiders is endless. While new players don’t benefit from other characters as much, they suffer from penalties and downsides just the same, and wilson has basically neither, which makes him a great choice for beginner players.

 

27 minutes ago, cropo said:

The idea that a player ''learns better'' as Wilson is just the nostalgia goggles talking. 

I don’t understand this claim. It doesn’t nullify anything which has been stated, and it’s a very bold assumption. I first started with DST, and learned the basics with woodie and webber (however i wish I had chosen wilson), so this doesn’t even apply to me.

 

28 minutes ago, cropo said:

they need to be outright babied by a flat-out better player.

The difference with Wendy is that instead of being babysat by another player, they are babysat by abigail. At least other players actually explain and teach mechanics to you, instead of just killing creatures and remaining awfully silent.

[Capybara007]

Hopefully klei wont change wilson

[cropo]

15 minutes ago, goblinball said:

I’d argue for beginner players, wilson actually makes the game easier compared to most characters. Wilson seems bad to so-called “veteran” players because he has no perks which can be exploited for ridiculous benefits. On the other hand, new players don’t know how to take advantage of character perks, excluding maybe obvious stuff like “woodie has an axe!”, the amount of new Webber’s I’ve seen in public lobbies who aren’t even aware he can tame spiders is endless. While new players don’t benefit from other characters as much, they suffer from penalties and downsides just the same, and wilson has basically neither, which makes him a great choice for beginner players.

In this particular argument, I am using Wendy as an example.  Woodie only has one thing against him compared to Wilson and that's turning into a wereform for a few seconds during the full moon. He has the same stats as Wilson, an infinite durability axe. Even if the player does not learn anything else he is immediately better than Wilson and can experience the game at a vanilla level.  Webber does change the rules of the game, and would not serve as a tutorial character. 

Bringing up Woodie, the player will only be subjected to a wereform for a single day before they hit Winter. The average new player who would die to Deerclops would not be terribly inconvenienced at all, after all they presumably would not even know about Glommer at this point. If the player survives longer than this, then they might encounter another full moon and be their wereform for a few seconds again, but ultimately this isn't too different from Wilson.

 

15 minutes ago, goblinball said:

I don’t understand this claim. It doesn’t nullify anything which has been stated, and it’s a very bold assumption. I first started with DST, and learned the basics with woodie and webber (however i wish I had chosen wilson), so this doesn’t even apply to me.

So you didn't learn the game with Wilson then

 

 

15 minutes ago, goblinball said:

The difference with Wendy is that instead of being babysat by another player, they are babysat by abigail. At least other players actually explain and teach mechanics to you, instead of just killing creatures and remaining awfully silent.

I am actually talking about playing with other human players. Wilson eats the collected food, keeps dying and keeps needing to be revived, wasting resources. If we assume the world hasn't progressed too far which we should, red gems aren't in plenty of supply for amulets so they are reviving him with hearts or the postmordem, which makes future deaths a frequent occurence. The Wilson spends most of his time dying, and being revived, than actually playing the game. I literally have to do this with anyone I try to buy the game for who shows any interest in it. 

 

Wendy survives most of her combat situations, makes it to Winter without frustrating other people in the party, is not in a constant battle to be able to recover from constant deaths and learns about other parts of the game. Won't be too good at kiting, obviously, but could play future runs as characters other than Wendy and know how to survive to reach these combat situations and overcome them without the burden of everything else that you don't know about...or you can literally just engage in combat as Wendy with the wealth of health and hunger you'll be saving by not constantly dying.

 

I will assert again he's a terrible tutorial character, he is a pride character.  Keeping him the way he is doesn't help out new players, it maintains a sense of pride for the veterans to keep him as a glorified trophy-wife status symbol of the game. He's obsolete.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

the 1st season is winter and wilson's beard provides 120 isulation so...

[HellHeater]

9 hours ago, imsomony said:

Leave Wilson alone. Let him be who he is, and let his legacy and efforts stand on their own merit. 

yeah

just make skins weaveable tho

[cropo]

12 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

the 1st season is winter and wilson's beard provides 120 isulation so...

No new Wilson player is going to survive long enough to have a beard, they're going to be dying constantly which renders the beard completely ineffectual.  They have to be good enough to survive to have the ''right'' to even utilize his sole perk, which makes him seem even less of a tutorial character.

 

Woodie, on the other hand, while having a weaker beard has it on constantly regardless of death.

 

No one picks the ''Shriveled'' blank slate class in Dark Souls, unless they already know how to play and want to maximize their level effectiveness, being a blank slate does not automatically give you the right to call yourself a tutorial character.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

5 minutes ago, cropo said:

No one picks the ''Shriveled'' blank slate class in Dark Souls, unless they already know how to play and want to maximize their level effectiveness, being a blank slate does not automatically give you the right to call yourself a tutorial character.

so similar games! nice example

5 minutes ago, cropo said:

No new Wilson player is going to survive long enough to have a beard, they're going to be dying constantly which renders the beard completely ineffectual.  They have to be good enough to survive to have the ''right'' to even utilize his sole perk, which makes him seem even less of a tutorial character.

 

Woodie, on the other hand, while having a weaker beard has it on constantly regardless of death.

because people never improve, sure

idk what kind of players have you meet but after few seasions any wilson can survive until winter

or was DS, a more difficullt version of the DST map, impossible or frustrating because you had to use wilson at first?
 

this conversation has lose any sense and less taking into consideration how many people is asking for wilson refresh because he has no perks when there is many characters that are simply wilson with steroids instead of having unique gameplay

when all characters will have their refresh, having no perks will be more unique and desirable and that role should be filled with wilson

[cropo]

1 minute ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

because people never improve, sure

Strawman. I have argued that players can improve and learn in a more positive environment using a different character(Wendy), Wilson does not provide this experience is my argument. Wilson is an ill fit for this task, if you play him in spite of that I say more power to you...that doesn't make him a tutorial character.

 

3 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

when all characters will have their refresh, having no perks will be more unique and desirable and that role should be filled with wilson

That's fine, this does not make him a beginner-friendly character.

 

4 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

this conversation has lose any sense and less taking into consideration how many people is asking for wilson refresh because he has no perks when there is many characters that are simply wilson with steroids instead of having unique gameplay

Wilson can be the blank slate character, that's fine. I don't think having him collect dust as a relic to an older version of the game that ran with a different no-multiplayer philosophy than it does today is healthy for him but I can understand the desire to keep a pure character in the game, just please stop using the argument that he is the right character to begin the game with.  He offers nothing interesting to the team, in a team-based game. He offers no help or advantages to struggling players learning how to play. He forces a specific ''on the rocks'' kind of learning experience that is primarily aimed towards rogue-like purists and is a noob-trap to the average modern player.

 

Wilson is the right character to GATEKEEP the game with, suggesting him to newer players is a loss in player retention because of the frustrations I have mentioned in other posts. 

[BezKa]

I think Wilson deserves something. He's been through so much and haven't changed like, at all. 

Nobody plays him on public servers unless it's purely for role-play and Forge or Gorge, where he has actual legit perks. 

I like his blank slate status and all, all my DS long term worlds are with Wilson, but that's because I wanted to complete the Adventure Mode as him since it's canon he was the one to do it. 

But it's been so long, nobody picks him as a starting character, me and my friends included, (we went with Woodie, Wormwood and Webber) and the story is progressing while he is not. 

I don't want him to become OP master ninja shadow realm slayer superhell destroyer, etc., just some more stuff to maybe represent his time on the throne or experience from the Adventure Mode. 

[Capybara007]

9 minutes ago, BezKa said:

I think Wilson deserves something. He's been through so much and haven't changed like, at all. 

Nobody plays him on public servers unless it's purely for role-play and Forge or Gorge, where he has actual legit perks. 

I like his blank slate status and all, all my DS long term worlds are with Wilson, but that's because I wanted to complete the Adventure Mode as him since it's canon he was the one to do it. 

But it's been so long, nobody picks him as a starting character, me and my friends included, (we went with Woodie, Wormwood and Webber) and the story is progressing while he is not. 

I don't want him to become OP master ninja shadow realm slayer superhell destroyer, etc., just some more stuff to maybe represent his time on the throne or experience from the Adventure Mode. 

Ironically the site that measured how many players played x character said that wilson was the third most played character

[ArubaroBeefalo]

9 minutes ago, cropo said:

That's fine, this does not make him a beginner-friendly character.

 

that there is easier characters doesnt make him less friendly for new players

i always recommend to my noob friends to pick weeber, winona, wx, wigfrid, wendy, woodie, wicker or wilson because these are beginner-friendly but just because wendy nullifies many survival aspect of the game doesnt make wilsona  bad choice lmao

12 minutes ago, cropo said:

Wilson is the right character to GATEKEEP the game with, suggesting him to newer players is a loss in player retention because of the frustrations I have mentioned in other posts. 

maybe you have meet people that doesnt enjoy this kind of games because i have experience a totally different thing with my friends and myself

[Spep]

Oh, absolutely rework wilson, the idea that he is the new players character got thrown out the window along with character unlocks years ago, the beard is practically useless, and i have a roseate skin that i still only use in reforged klei please just rework wilson.

really though what new character is going to pick wilson when every other character looks infinitely more interesting on the character select screen.

[Capybara007]

4 minutes ago, Spep said:

really though what new character is going to pick wilson when every other character looks infinitely more interesting on the character select screen.

Do you really think a new player is gonna care about that

[cropo]

18 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

that there is easier characters doesnt make him less friendly for new players

So Wilsons sole defining characteristic of being the ''beginner friendly character that you should learn the game with'' is now a spot of fierce competition with characters that are better at doing that job than he is? 

 

18 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

weeber, winona, wx, wigfrid, wendy, woodie, wicker or wilson

Ignoring a Wicker that isn't instructed on how to use her books, all of these characters but WX contribute something of value to the team regardless of the skill of the player using them, Wilson does not. So again what purpose does he serve other than personal vanity to the user? Other characters can teach the players just fine, even better arguably, and contribute to the team even if they're not good players which saves on group frustration.

 

It would still be a bad move to suggest Wilson to a new player unless you have the patience to baby them through constant dying in the beginner stages of the game. In which case, you are the one teaching them, not their character.

 

18 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

maybe you have meet people that doesnt enjoy this kind of games because i have experience a totally different thing with my friends and myself

5 hours ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

atmost some potions to calm down moba and fornite fans that needs 4 skills (but not so complex so their brain doesnt explote) to kill fight stuff.

Gonna make a judgement call here, but making sarcastic comments on players wanting unique perks as basically the equivalent to childish Fortnite players paints a picture of your friends being far more experienced and steeled for these kinds of games, with the exact level of pride needed to hoist Wilson up on his pedestal.  I have no doubt that your associates would have a far easier time tearing through this game and others like it.

[BezKa]

25 minutes ago, Capybara007 said:

Ironically the site that measured how many players played x character said that wilson was the third most played character

How many players play him purely for nostalgia? How many of those are Forge and Gorge servers? 

[ArubaroBeefalo]

13 minutes ago, cropo said:

I have no doubt that your associates would have a far easier time tearing through this game and others like it.

actually no, i have a friend with 500h that dies more than new comers but he enjoys that because is what he seeks when launching a game from the dont starve franchise

btw, my call about lol and fornite was because player of these days are getting used to having games mixed with many other games styles (just like the films so every project can atract the maximum amount of people) and one of the game mechanics that are being used in these mix are skills. Just see the ammount of games that have a lot of different mechanics (character progression, resource and/or builds managment, etc) but most of these games mix these mechanics in a very superficial way. So my joke was about "are you people asking for wilson refresh just to add a lot of perks because is what today we find fun or because is necessary?" because im sure that many people who ask for this (not saying that you are saying it because of this) is because this tendency for that there is also topics about reworking combat into things that doesnt fit the game. Wasnt about making fun of casual players or anything (edit: but i coudlnt resist saying the brain joke now that i read it again xD)

and again, i wasnt saying that wilson is the easier character to learn the game or that he couldnt get some unique potions or weapons, but not a woodie level refresh... that would need to be very well done to be worth losing a blank character

[cropo]

7 minutes ago, BezKa said:

How many players play him purely for nostalgia? How many of those are Forge and Gorge servers? 

https://i.redd.it/9snwcdgfadi51.png

 

This here is an image of the distribution of characters, the rate of modded servers, and how far each of them has progress through the seasons but it is not nearly descriptive enough of who is doing what to be accurate. This is from the person who made the now defunct website that tracked users and is a year old at this point.

 

9 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

, but not a woodie level refresh... that would need to be very well done to be worth losing a blank character

I can agree with that for sure. 

[BezKa]

5 minutes ago, cropo said:

and is a year old at this point.

 

[Pig Princess]

7 minutes ago, cropo said:

As Wilson, they die, die, and then die again because everything is thrown at them at once. With Wendy, only the survival aspect is truly thrown at you. Sure, you can't outright solo Deerclops with Abigail alone, but she puts you in a situation where you can reach Deerclops in the first place

I remember exactly this happening while I was new to the game, it was Shipwrecked before "Home sea home" update. Wendy allowed me to get to the middle of Hurricane season in the first place, and even though I died to shadows on day 26 (first somewhat big daycount compared to my previous attempts by that time), I was able to reach the point when shadows, light and rain are a problem - and to plan my time accordingly in the next run during Mild season (light and rain protection), to consider and try sanity options, to learn kiting despite bodyguard present but without being overwhelmed, to consider and try better than axe/spear weapons (despite bodyguard present, thanks to this bodyguard helping to acquire materials for it). Wendy allowed me to build my first bee boxes and note for myself that this structure is indeed helpful; Wendy allowed me to get to Sealnado and die from it, but not before it, and learn to prepare for this fight in the next attempts. Wendy was the one who didn't allow me to ignore Tiger Shark and forced me to combat it (since Abigail attacks it on sight even though boss is initially neutral to player). And when I learned what awaits me in the next season, how to kite and what items/materials I can use (and what is practical to use) to manage all 3 stats, I used that experience to play as other characters. Then I played Wickerbottom and learned the virtue of birdcage and more advanced stuff because of 2 papyrus and reduced prototyping station tier requirement, but again, it was simplified just enough to become accessible to try, it didn't hinder progress due to not needing to find reeds, on the contrary, I was looking for them after playing as Wickerbottom while playing as other characters.

I learned Reign of Giants with Wigfrid: her health regeneration was not enough to completely ignore healing and tank everything, but her cheap helmets, tankiness and regeneration in general helped me to face stronger foes like tallbirds, try to fight them in the first place instead of avoiding them, since cost of mistake in each of those fights was less than for Wilson. Wigfrid showed me usefulness of large meat as crock pot ingredient since I was able to get sufficient supply of it (in SW I couldn't get so much large meat). I was still newbie when I tried RoG after SW, so I new some things, but there was still much more room to learn and improve.

In general, at the very beginning of learning experience it was important to me to see that it's not all hopeless to try to survive, that I can do something successfully (thing corresponding characters are good at), become familiar with this part of the game, and only then try other stuff while still relying on Abigail/health leech/other boons. It gave me both initial direction in which to improve and chance to see more content, the former due to presence of upsides/downsides, the latter due to these characters being generally stronger than Wilson.

I'm happy to see now that Wendy and Wigfrid had their skill ceiling raised after reworks (although Wigfrid could use more debth added to her kit); I think it's a good thing to have a room to improve for players who rely on Wendy and Wigfrid to survive. Also their playstyle is not totally alien to that of Wilson, characters in general still have a lot in common, even after reworks; but now they have some truly unique things only they can do, I lacked that before reworkes, I enjoy it now and I wish it was like that when I was new to the game.

As for Wilson, Wigfrid's incoming damage reduction (including freezing) and health leech is better ally even for winter, especially since it is not affected by dying penalty unlike Wilson's beard which does, at least it was like that for me (I tried Wilson in RoG after some SW experience - nope, still improved after trying different character).

Maybe I'm just stupid, but important thing is how big is percentage of the people who can fall to the deep water and learn to swim quickly enough (before they loose interest to the game, in other words). You can? Good for you, but that doesn't mean everyone has done the same and should do the same, that it's better for everyone.

As for the topic, I would like Wilson in his rework to become more beginner-friendly character through implementing more useful quotes (even for obscure things), making his playstyle less contradictional (right now Wilson can craft meat effigy more easily, but is punished for using that by loosing beard; can shave beard for effigy but is penalised by loosing insulation), get him to the level of majority of the surviviors (after reworks it has risen), give him something to improve interaction with team (to give to the team), and no, beard hair do not count since Wendy/Winona/anyone with decent weapon and careful enough can farm them faster and in larger quantities, + there is very safe option to kill beardlings.