Something to stop the Dragonfly wall cheese?

[ArubaroBeefalo]

24 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Why is the only answer “don’t build the wall?” That is stupid

this topic getting 9 10 pages is stupid

[Mike23Ua]

“Unless you host your own world” I said that part for a reason: but you completely missed my point.

If I want to set Nightmare monsters to Tons, lock the world in a permanent state of darkness and have said world rapidly changing weather seasons every couple days, Your not going to WANT to fight Dragonfly with ridiculous amounts of health- this goes especially true when it comes to playing Alone unless your just some Elitest who gets your kicks on having high health bosses as some self status of “Hey I Did this!” 
 

But: Just to amuse the masses, here’s the differences between Dragonfly in Solo DS compared to her DST counterpart.

https://dontstarve.fandom.com/wiki/Dragonfly
 

The difference? Klei designed her for DST with the intentions you would bring other players to the fight.. That was 2017.. It’s nearly 2022 now- and as we have seen with fishing, farming and sailing= Things are getting overhauled to be more in-depth, complex & better.

[fishofwar]

16 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

If I want to set Nightmare monsters to Tons, lock the world in a permanent state of darkness and have said world rapidly changing weather seasons every couple days, Your not going to WANT to fight Dragonfly with ridiculous amounts of health

who would've guessed that messing with fundamental game mechanics would throw off the balance of things?

[Yuuko]

1 hour ago, Mike23Ua said:

Why is the only answer “don’t build the wall?” That is stupid

I know you like to speculate on what can be, and love throwing out any idea you think can help make the game better.  I don't dislike that, and I won't say a complete overhaul to dfly would be a bad thing - BUT that isn't really what this thread is about.

The entire conversation here is about the wall being used to combat dfly, and some players wanting Klei to patch out strategies they don't like.  This is why the suggestions are things like making lavae attack walls, or jumping over them to specifically bypass them as a strategy.  Not to make the fight better, but to eliminate the wall strategy.  Adding these does nothing to improve the fight in any way that *not* building the wall won't accomplish already as the game exists..  Ironically the OP admitted they build the wall themselves.  They claim they don't want to, but they do.  No game changes are needed here, the only change is this player, playing on their own server, needs to just *not* build it.

And really that goes for any suggestion about removing cheese from the game.  There are a decent amount of people who fight the AG running around, dodging its charges, getting a few attacks in here or there, knowing full well the pillar is there.  They fight it how they want to.  That's all this player needs to do.

And that's what is so funny, and bad about this thread too - the AG comes with a pillar.  No one builds it, its automatically there, and yet players are happily fighting AG legit.  Here we are with a player building a wall themselves complaining because it does exactly what the youtube video he watched said it would...  They have no excuse, just don't build it...

[Primalflower]

On 10/3/2021 at 7:04 PM, ZombieDupe said:

The prevalence of the wall strategy boils down the fight to that strategy. Because it exists, I have no reason to fight any different way.

the saddest thing i have ever read

[shakespeare257]

5 hours ago, Primalflower said:

the saddest thing i have ever read

This is just a tad bit condescending, dare I say toxic.

There are different types of people. For people who want to play "optimally" the path of "least resistance"  is always going to be the one they take. The person you're replying to, as well as myself, does not like to fail so we will "optimize the fun" out of the game. There are games that don't really allow you to do that, and there are even bosses in this game that don't allow you to do that (the spinning attack on the Celestial Champion being the direct statement of the devs that they don't want any building cheese for that fight).

A well designed encounter will not really make the path of least resistance dull. A lot of the encounters in this game are a tad bit dull.

Meanwhile, there is another class of players for whom "playing optimally" (which usually means minimizing the chance of failure) is not the preferred way of playing any game. They are suggesting to the "optimal" crowd to find the challenge in the game as they can by self-restricting what they can use.

Unsurprisingly, the people who will cheese the most fights due to exploits, bugs etc will also be the most vocal about patching those out. We want to follow the optimal path, but we also want that path to be fun. Pressing F next to the DFly while she runs around making babies to come back and then maybe occasionally have you sleep her - this is hardly the pinnacle of gameplay, and I have not seen (m)any arguments as to why this is a desirable part of the game. "It is in the game and removing it would make the game less rich and thus worse" is not a sound argument for why something should not be changed/patched/reworked.

Can anyone argue on the merits of *not* changing this fight and allowing the wall cheese - namely, what does it add to the game?

[mima_]

1 hour ago, shakespeare257 said:

Can anyone argue on the merits of *not* changing this fight and allowing the wall cheese - namely, what does it add to the game?

it gave us choice . thats all. thx

its not that i cant solo legit fight it . it just take so much time and repetitive kitting .. i better use those time digging turf of my base 

[QuQuasar]

59 minutes ago, shakespeare257 said:

Can anyone argue on the merits of *not* changing this fight and allowing the wall cheese - namely, what does it add to the game?

Cheesing dragonfly was my gateway into actually fighting the raid bosses. If it hadn't been for the wall method, I'd still just be surviving year-to-year and not tackling any of the late game content.

[Mike23Ua]

I’m just going to ask at this point.

IF Klei releases a new game mode (KNG+) and offered up a Re-imagined completely overhauled version of this fight that made walls less effective would you use it &/or play in this new mode or with this Dragonfly 2.0 toggled to On@ZombieDupe?

Because I’m just going to be brutally honest here- No amount of content or re-worked content is going to matter if your just going to continue to opt out of it and continue to use what you know works best.

Meanwhile here I was wishing these bosses would get upgraded skins & / or abilities (Deerclops/Feastclops)

I mean the freaking MOON has Landed in the Ocean, and it is mutating things and changing the constant- It makes logical & lore sense that if the characters we can play as can evolve, learn new powers and progress from how they were in DS, So can the environment and Bosses & Mobs of DST..

Remember we didn’t JUST get Shipwreckeds Wobster ported directly from Shipwrecked… We got Shattered Wobsters infused with Moon Glass..

I hope Klei will keep this in Mind when they “Look into improving Ancient Guardians Fight”

My view point has never been just To Build or Not to Build a wall..

Im asking very specifically: IF Klei offered up a alternate version of this fight (possibly even effected by Moonstorm) would anyone even bother to play it??? Or would you continue to just build the wall and fight the normal (and now extremely highly outdated..) version of this fight?

[Guihhza]

1 hour ago, shakespeare257 said:

Can anyone argue on the merits of *not* changing this fight and allowing the wall cheese - namely, what does it add to the game?

Accessibility.
Patching easier combat methods will constrain people who don't like or want to kill a difficult boss such as "legit dragonfly".
Fighting is a big part of the game, sure, but it is not what everyone focuses on. Some people prefer to farm, Some prefer to make bases, Some like just chilling around talking to others and some prefer combat. 
By stopping totally optional strategies like this you are hindering every one else to satisfy the wishes of a very small group.

[Yuuko]

2 hours ago, shakespeare257 said:

Can anyone argue on the merits of *not* changing this fight and allowing the wall cheese - namely, what does it add to the game?

The fact that any effort in changing dfly is completely worthless.  From a business standpoint it would be a complete waste of budget to bother doing anything other than a full overhaul.

This is because (as has been mentioned many times through this thread)
1) There is no end to cheese.  There will be another cheese method.  Making lavae attack walls will only get those walls replaced with fossils or statues.  You can also drop some grass and a flingo and ice them automatically, stopping them from attacking.  There is more untapped cheese that just isn't needed for the fight that will come out when needed.  Even if Klei did decide to patch this for whomever thinks walls are bad - those people would just see the next cheese and be right back here whining about how other people are playing on other servers they aren't even involved with (meanwhile nothing changed in their experience, if they weren't building a wall before, nothing is added to their experience by nerfing walls.)
2) Cheese is good.  This is a sandbox survival game, not a combat simulator.  The variety of ways you can approach a fight give that fight replayability.  Most of dst is not a skill based game, it is a knowledge based game.  Knowing how many times to attack a beefalo before you move back to dodge it, knowing how to kite a single beefalo from the herd, these don't require high execution.  It is only consistent that the bosses are the same.
3) Choice is good.  There are many youtube videos of players who have taken these bosses out without such strategies.  Anyone who wants to go that route has as many examples online to guide them as those who build the wall.  Anyone who wants to play without the wall cheese can.  Just like some pick Wolfgang for fights, while others pick Wes.  Our choices are how we make our game fun, which is kinda how every sandbox game goes.  At some point you make the fun by having agency in how you play.
4) Optimizing the fun out of the game is a trap.  Just like free to play apps hook you in with promises of power via purchases, which actually shortcut your gaming experience by skipping time spent progressing - while still leaving you at a firm progression wall - If you are not playing the game in a way that is fun for you, you should reevaluate how you are playing.  This is entirely on the player to understand.

I really enjoy cheese.  Sometimes I start a world and turn off my attack button to see how far I can go without it.  Sometimes I try out new strategies on bosses to cheese them that I haven't seen others do, or I try to optimize or alter the known cheese systems.  This is all fun for me.  I do *not* play this game to go fighting everything.  So I play the way I like.  If you want to play to fight bosses, minimize your environment support and maximize on your dexterous play then do it.

Like the OP - there is no reason they need to build a wall.  If they aren't having fun fighting dfly with a wall, they should try skipping it.  On PC you can easily use console commands to gear up and practice bosses, but even on console you can utilize rollbacks to replay a boss fight many times to work out the details.

[marioespinho]

2 hours ago, shakespeare257 said:

Can anyone argue on the merits of *not* changing this fight and allowing the wall cheese - namely, what does it add to the game?

How about giving people who, for some reason, have trouble and can't really do the fight the "legit way"? 

Should we just tell them to "git gud scrub" when they currently have a way to actually enjoy the content, just because there are some other players who can't help themselves not using the cheese because they lack willpower to do it?

How about those who have hundreds of hours into the game, or those who just want to dedicate their time to make a pretty base and don't really want a challenging fight every time?

This is not a game for tryhards, it has never been. It's a game meant for everyone, wich is why Klei hasn't patched the cheese methods or even why you can just console everything anyway.

[Gi-Go]

I wrote a 15 minutes long reply but forums crashed and I'm in agony right now so I'll make it quick.

Wall cheese is bad.

It's used by people who have 5 hours in the game, it's used by people who don't play dst, it's used by your gramma. Everyone uses this cheese. People don't switch to nor choose this method for "reasons" as defenders of the wall method say - they start the game with the idea that dragonfly is killed with a wall, and most of them never change their strategy cuz it just works.

But really, the cheese isn't the issue it's the fight itself.
If a cheese is considered to be the default, the proper, the correct, the standart way to fight a boss - then there is something wrong with the boss.

The idea of a legit fight is to kill larvae faster then they are spawned to not get swarmed, but how are you supposed to do that when they each have 500 hp (with a total 9000 minion health per fight) and this does not change regardless of who you are and how many of you are.

Larvae need a health nerf that's all there is to it. And when that happens, there needs to be a cheese patch to encourage players to you know... at least try to fight the boss the intended way for once. Cheese fix is easy btw, moon storm birds just walk through walls and objects and so should larvae.

The last thing to address is the efficiency boys who want the cheese to save time. For you, I'll make a forum post on what I consider to be the ultimate DF cheese. I hope you will like it.

 

And yes, the fact that people I don't know cheese dragonfly is what keeps me awake at nights. I can't live my life to it's full potential until I make sure noone is using walls method. 

[marioespinho]

31 minutes ago, Gi-Go said:

I wrote a 15 minutes long reply but forums crashed

Maybe the forums crashing was a sign from God, telling you that those arguments were not very good... 

[Summ4r]

32 minutes ago, Gi-Go said:

I wrote a 15 minutes long reply but forums crashed and I'm in agony right now so I'll make it quick.

Wall cheese is bad.

It's used by people who have 5 hours in the game, it's used by people who don't play dst, it's used by your gramma. Everyone uses this cheese. People don't switch to nor choose this method for "reasons" as defenders of the wall method say - they start the game with the idea that dragonfly is killed with a wall, and most of them never change their strategy cuz it just works.

But really, the cheese isn't the issue it's the fight itself.
If a cheese is considered to be the default, the proper, the correct, the standart way to fight a boss - then there is something wrong with the boss.

The idea of a legit fight is to kill larvae faster then they are spawned to not get swarmed, but how are you supposed to do that when they each have 500 hp (with a total 9000 minion health per fight) and this does not change regardless of who you are and how many of you are.

Larvae need a health nerf that's all there is to it. And when that happens, there needs to be a cheese patch to encourage players to you know... at least try to fight the boss the intended way for once. Cheese fix is easy btw, moon storm birds just walk through walls and objects and so should larvae.

The last thing to address is the efficiency boys who want the cheese to save time. For you, I'll make a forum post on what I consider to be the ultimate DF cheese. I hope you will like it.

 

And yes, the fact that people I don't know cheese dragonfly is what keeps me awake at nights. I can't live my life to it's full potential until I make sure noone is using walls method. 

after I started to tame befaloo, I use it to kill almost all bosses except bq, I don't like walls either. when there are many people it's fine, but when you solo df, walls just make the fight too restricted. with befaloo I can run around waiting for the larvae to die. but when there are many people, we don't actually need walls..... just need one person to kill all the larvae, Wolfgang would the best choice, and the others can deal with df. 

[Gi-Go]

1 hour ago, marioespinho said:

Maybe the forums crashing was a sign from God, telling you that those arguments were not very good... 

At least they aren't "wall cheese is good cuz noobs like it"

[marioespinho]

@Gi-Go

And did anyone said it was good, or bad for that matter? 

All we say it that it comes down to each player to choose if they want to use it or not, giving them the freedom to choose how they want to have fun. The same way that mods or console commands can be considered cheating, but guess what, i couldn't care less if others use it because it's their game. 

It just looks like you are trying to be the gatekeepers of how a sandbox game should or should not be played, wich, in opinion, is just plain wrong.

[Gi-Go]

8 minutes ago, marioespinho said:

@Gi-Go

And did anyone said it was good, or bad for that matter? 

All we say it that it comes down to each player to choose if they want to use it or not, giving them the freedom to choose how they want to have fun. The same way that mods or console commands can be considered cheating, but guess what, i couldn't care less if others use it because it's their game. 

It just looks like you are trying to be the gatekeepers of how a sandbox game should or should not be played, wich, in opinion, is just plain wrong.

Do you have something that makes you have your standpoint? I mean why do you act like asking for an overused cheese fix is equivalent to forcing people to speedrun DF day 4 no armor no healing no flute?

Here is my take: I join a world, people say they wanna fight DF I tell them I'm in, but let's not wall. They say no way, I start the fight outside of wall and they never join on it and just watch me solo it behind their wall. Or, they kick me. Or, I just don't go with them. Or I go with them and we stunlock her to death and the chat gets filled with ez. This happens every time no matter what server I join people always act like I'm a madman for even suggesting not making a wall. 

I'll tell it again, wall cheese is not a choice, it's what players are tought to do always when fighting DF. It's been like this for years and I'm tired of seeing it. The only way to end neverending tradition of fighting with a wall is to fix the cheese. And if larvae are op then nerf simple as that. 

[ArubaroBeefalo]

1 hour ago, Gi-Go said:

At least they aren't "wall cheese is good cuz noobs like it"

Teach us mr pr0

Im sure you always play fair and in the hardest way possible without abussing any mechanic or exploit, without any mod and with only characters weaker than wilson

What a model to imitate

[Gi-Go]

11 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

Teach us mr pr0

Im sure you always play fair and in the hardest way possible without abussing any mechanic or exploit, without any mod and with only characters weaker than wilson

What a model to imitate

Alright alright, I give up. clearly noone gives a s**t about this boss. This thread should just be closed. 

[xhyom]

So sad that stone walls, brainless rocks, are forcing our kids nowadays

[ArubaroBeefalo]

1 minute ago, Gi-Go said:

Alright alright, I give up. clearly noone gives a s**t about this boss. This thread should just be closed. 

I care about the boss design not how people aproach the fight

But hey, im just a noob. Maybe my noob brain can understand why is so important to the point of asking klei to waste time of making stupid fixes in something that works fine. Or maybe my life isnt that empty...

[Gi-Go]

1 minute ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

I care about the boss design not how people aproach the fight

But hey, im just a noob. Maybe my noob brain can understand why is so important to the point of asking klei to waste time of making stupid fixes in something that works fine. Or maybe my life isnt that empty...

I'm not saying that that "if you like wall cheese then you noob" that's not what my reply was about. But, the misunderstanding is my fault so I apologise. I was talking about how saying that wall cheese should stay in the game because beginners struggle with the boss is even worse of an argument than mines. 

[mima_]

this post should have not been here if the OP have courage to tell his friend that he dont like the method of killing with cheese . 

then he choose to rant in forum and tell how things should be forced to be done in certain way (he probably forgot dst is sandbox game not fighting simulator) so him and his friend can always fight in a way he think this fight should be done 

this an easy fix if the OP just man up and tell his friend to "gid gud"

[xhyom]

"The Forge is an Event exclusive to Don't Starve Together, the first of a planned series of such events. The event includes a 6-player co-op challenge in an arena, featuring exclusive enemy Mobs and Bosses, combat perks for all Characters, new Weapons and Armor, a Gladiator Skin set, and a new skin trading system involving Spools."

On Topic.