Worn out suits eject hundreds of O2 in bottles

[Prince Mandor]

12 hours ago, NeoDeusMachina said:

I personally dislike when people use "we" and speak in other people's name for whatever reason they might have when they are obviously expressing their personal opinion

You personally dislike it. I personally like it, when people use "we" and speak about common problems in my name too.

And no, dozens of bugs having years long history, horrible drop in performance in already released game after last update, and also adding unwanted mechanics in already released game is not opinion. They are facts. And this facts can be easily checked

[Gurgel]

27 minutes ago, Prince Mandor said:

... horrible drop in performance in already released game after last update, and also adding unwanted mechanics in already released game is not opinion. They are facts. And this facts can be easily checked

"Drop in performance" is fact, "horrible drop" in performance is _opinion_. Case in point, I did not even notice it. Cannot have been that universally horrible. May be AMD vs. Intel, may be because I have a reasonably recent set-up (Ryzen 3700X, 32GB RAM), maybe because the "horrible drop" is just horrible hyperbole.

As to "unwanted" mechanics, that is _opinion_ as well. Seriously.

Stop thinking you are the measure of all things. You are not. You are one voice and you deserve to be heard, but trying to appropriate the voices of others is not acceptable.

[Prince Mandor]

1 minute ago, Gurgel said:

"Drop in performance" is fact, "horrible drop" in performance is _opinion_. Case in point, I did not even notice it. May be AMD vs. Intel, may be because I have a reasonably recent set-up (Rysen 3700X, 32GB RAM). As to "unwanted" mechanics, that is _opinion_ as well. Seriously.

 

We are playing with words. Drop in performance, marked as "serious" "total" "horrible" "drastic" by some oni users, who were expressing their opinions on different sites. So, it is drop in performance in _already_released_game_, noticed by multiple customers and considered serious enough for them in their situation. If it doesn't touch you, personally -- well, good for you.

Game was good. It was released. There was lot of mods for it, wiki, tutorials as text and as video, There is also a good new generation of game as early access DLC with new mechanics for players, who likes new mechanics and ready for inconveniences of early access.

Now we have broken game (not for everybody in the galaxy, but for some number of players), we have broken mods (not every mod, but lot of them), we have outdated wiki, and wrong obsolete tutorials. Well, changes was not unwanted by every sentient mind in the galaxy, but they destroy a lot and bring a little, and "very minor amount of users" (not saying "nobody"), playing vanilla ONI asks for them. So, okay, let use "practically unwanted" instead of "unwanted". But does perfection in selection of words really changes anything?

[Gurgel]

I don't think you understand what I am saying. Anyways, the only one speaking for me is me. Lets just leave it at that, ok?

That said, the recent changes were announced and explained quite satisfactorily. They make a ton of sense with regards to software engineering and IMO also with regards to game design. Klei has stated repeatedly that the base-game would continue to receive some content and I did not see anybody complaining about that. The changes are in line with the usual design and implementation approach of Klei (which, having seen a lot of IT and software development, I find quite impressive). They were also, so far, executed well. (I would go so far as to say that the last statement is an expert opinion, not just a personal one.)

In addition, Klei very carefully listens to the feedback here and reacts a manner quite well matches to issue severity and ease-of-fix. There are obvious resource constraints on their side, which is totally standard. Klei also carefully filters and prioritizes the feedback. Screaming loudly, proclaiming the sky is falling and other forms of grand-standing will get you nothing. Explaining an issue carefully and _why_ it is an issue may get you a very fast fix. I have now experienced that personally several times. This filtering is both impressive and one of the success-factors for Klei. Too many games have been ruined by the developers catering to the 1% that screams loudest. "The customer is always right" is the road to hell unless you sell only standardized products, because the customer if often clueless and may come with an inflated ego.

So, some people always complain loudly, and I am sure if they change the color of the main menu, somebody would perceive that as the end of the universe and complain loudly with statements indicating that this was obviously a catastrophe and that it was a "fact" that the old one was right and the new one is not, and probably also indicating that the new color obviously makes any right-thinking physically ill and completely breaks the game. I generally ignore such messages, unless and until the complainer tries to hijack my voice.

[Artorias36]

2 hours ago, Gurgel said:

"Drop in performance" is fact, "horrible drop" in performance is _opinion_. Case in point, I did not even notice it. Cannot have been that universally horrible. May be AMD vs. Intel, may be because I have a reasonably recent set-up (Ryzen 3700X, 32GB RAM), maybe because the "horrible drop" is just horrible hyperbole.

As to "unwanted" mechanics, that is _opinion_ as well. Seriously.

Stop thinking you are the measure of all things. You are not. You are one voice and you deserve to be heard, but trying to appropriate the voices of others is not acceptable.

It depends how you play the game and how long you go with your colonies. If you take a save file from someone who has a 2000 or 3000 cycle colony and experienced a huge drop in performances and you use it, is garanteed that you too would have a huge drop in performances, no matter your setup (i have a i9 9900k and a rtx 3070 TI and i am here experiencing a huge drop in performances)

If you consider having periodicaly a 130kg of bottle of oxygen per atmo suit, in your base as a wanted mechanic, then i don't know what to say.

 

[Tobruk]

On 8/10/2021 at 9:29 PM, NeoDeusMachina said:

My apologies @Tobruk for derailing away from your initial post!

I appreciate it! I couldn't have known my post will spark this kind of discussion.

[Alebrant]

On 8/11/2021 at 12:03 PM, Gurgel said:

I don't think you understand what I am saying. Anyways, the only one speaking for me is me. Lets just leave it at that, ok?

Add my voice to yours.

I got here looking for info about the worn out, because I've just seen it in a stream and it affects me a lot. I'm doing a 100% achievements colony, on Rime, and I've lost my fiber source in base, so if my atmo suits start to wear out I'm trapped in base, and probably end wiping out.

And besides that, I consider the changes that made it to vanilla from the DLC are all great changes. Not only that, I think that giving vanilla players new mechanics as you develop them for another DLC is quite grateful.

So you can say "we" are not only happy but grateful to the new patches in the game :) 

[tuxii]

On 8/11/2021 at 2:04 AM, Gurgel said:

"Drop in performance" is fact, "horrible drop" in performance is _opinion_.

Ok I'll play Devil's advocate here.

My 6200 cycle base (the save file is 134 MB) before the merge down update ran passably well.  I load it up now, and it's a slideshow.  On a 9900KS 32GB RAM 2070 beefy computer.

Yeah I guess that's just my _opinion_ and not actually a fact.

[JRup]

6 hours ago, tuxii said:

Ok I'll play Devil's advocate here.

My 6200 cycle base (the save file is 134 MB) before the merge down update ran passably well.  I load it up now, and it's a slideshow.  On a 9900KS 32GB RAM 2070 beefy computer.

Yeah I guess that's just my _opinion_ and not actually a fact.

Nah, that's just some CPU manufacturer doing remote voodoo on your rig so that you buy "the latest and greatest". JK:ONI is already ahead of its time and demands we have a quantum rig for it to run smoothly.

I have this 3500+ cycle map that has its hiccups and tiling up stuff has helped much (besides the fact I didn't go on a mining frenzy and emptied the map like some -cough, cough, FJ- does. I mean I'd love to but mine it all but can't afford to)... The currently inactive regolith melter has provided the necessary tons of igneous to start sealing processing power wants from the game itself. This has provided some respite from the frequent hitching the game presented. (I'm currently on a "hands me down" 4770K with 16GB and a RX480)

BTW, @tuxii: That naphta juicer project is coming along nicely - might drop a v1.0 of the build some time soon. Who knows what building it in survival might do? Do you have any pointers on what a SG boiler does on a survival map performance-wise?

Spoiler

Said project, zoomed out:

 

On 8/11/2021 at 4:03 AM, Gurgel said:

In addition, Klei very carefully listens to the feedback here and reacts a manner quite well matches to issue severity and ease-of-fix. There are obvious resource constraints on their side, which is totally standard. Klei also carefully filters and prioritizes the feedback.

This cannot be stressed enough.

On 8/11/2021 at 4:03 AM, Gurgel said:

Explaining an issue carefully and _why_ it is an issue may get you a very fast fix. I have now experienced that personally several times.

I've also been positively rewarded by actual changes triggered by providing feedback. IMO: It has to make sense on a global scale to actually take. A clear cut example is the recent updates to some hatch diets, see spoiler from 482865:

Spoiler

This has been an issue that has been voiced out and has got its just deserts. (Although some pie would've been good too.)

Then there's also the feedback that may sound wacky-goofy-outoftheballpark-crazy that got us the plant mutations - methinks. In short, don't stop! But do suggest nice stuff...

Marginally back on topic: Since canisters are sweepy-sweepable, this could also make configuring the canister emptier more targeted... (I honestly don't know if the issue with canister emptiers has been addressed - IIRC: disabling auto bottle did not do a thing once an emptier has been "activated")

[tuxii]

14 minutes ago, JRup said:

BTW, @tuxii: That naphta juicer project is coming along nicely - might drop a v1.0 of the build some time soon. Who knows what building it in survival might do? Do you have any pointers on what a SG boiler does on a survival map performance-wise?

The Naphthalizer is looking good!

I have yet to build a sour gas boiler in Survival.  Adding piping that always runs will always hit performance.  I can't really speak on your performance as my computer is... a few orders of magnitude better than yours, no offense.

14 minutes ago, JRup said:

Marginally back on topic: Since canisters are sweepy-sweepable, this could also make configuring the canister emptier more targeted... (I honestly don't know if the issue with canister emptiers has been addressed - IIRC: disabling auto bottle did not do a thing once an emptier has been "activated"

I dropped a post in the suggestion forum to hopefully make Canister Emptiers better.

[JRup]

29 minutes ago, tuxii said:

my computer is... a few orders of magnitude better than yours, no offense

None taken!

I had sold my Ryzen 3600 with 16GB ECC in a timely fashion and got this which I'm using ATM... Still waiting on AMD's re-hash of the latest gen with 3D cache or moving on to their next iteration on DDR5.

Some guy casually named this Linus who actually dissed companies that don't promote ECC memory and for good reason... Here's a good refresher why:

 

ECC memory is not the end-all/be-all solution to the chaos we live in, but it does help. DDR5 (with its standard error correction) pretty much should void some of the negative effects of that "randomness" we get from the universe... It indeed seems necessary since ONI actually goes far and beyond those 8GB we once believed enough for games way back when.

There could be a lot of back and forth on this subject, so TL;DR: ECC good, get sweepy and keep the game running!

[des06des]

On 8/10/2021 at 9:46 PM, Saturnus said:

We is used for any amount of people between two and everyone, and that's the exact meaning I put into "we" in my post.

I am "we". Thanks Saturnus!

[Artorias36]

Eh some people likes to play with words when arguments are lacking. Nobody wanted to put words on anybody's mouth, so the rant and anger about "Only I speak for myself" was unecessary imo.

I am currently inactive so the following statement is based on this summer experience, can be ignored if things got better or fixed nowdays.

Players who played the game in a certain way: Thousand of cycles, a good number of dupes, a good number of critters, farms and wild plants and a good number of pipes and vents. Thats who are that "we". Those players noticed a considerable drop in performances . That "we" is also refered to those same players who played before the merging update: the performances back then were much better.

Like i said months ago, it is fine if for some people think a drop in performances is not a big deal, what is not fine is denying the problem.

As for the Atmo suit, if the purpose was nerfing them, they should have added glass or other mid game material to the recipe. I also have hard time to believe that having 150kg of oxygen in bottle everytime you repair an atmo suit was a wanted and intended mechanic.

 

 

 

[DolphinWing]

On 10/24/2021 at 9:09 AM, Artorias36 said:

As for the Atmo suit, if the purpose was nerfing them, they should have added glass or other mid game material to the recipe. I also have hard time to believe that having 150kg of oxygen in bottle everytime you repair an atmo suit was a wanted and intended mechanic.

Just for reference, a atmo suit contains 75 kg oxygen. So a worn suit drops a bottle of oxygen with less than 75 kg.

[Pedro_L]

On 10/22/2021 at 1:02 AM, JRup said:

I didn't go on a mining frenzy and emptied the map like some -cough, cough, FJ- does. I mean I'd love to but mine it all but can't afford to)...

 

As someone that has a bad computer and has tried a lot to squeeze a little more performance out of the game, I found that filling up the emap works wonders

Plus I have put a gas reservoir+gas shut-off setup with big gas pipes that do not run exactly 1000g to reduce the time they spend on the pipes

[WhiteWind36]

On 8/10/2021 at 10:46 PM, Saturnus said:

We is used for any amount of people between two and everyone, and that's the exact meaning I put into "we" in my post.

Don't understand why some people want to simply disagree and got stuck on one word - "we"

I perfectly understand your post. And agree with the idea, although have my own opinion and explanation. I understand using "we" as person opinion off what might be opinion of more than one person, but the speaker doesn't know exactly whose opinion is like that, he just assumes that there is others thinking like him. And there is no problem with that. It's just personal opinion, no need to get on that and start a fight... We all just want to have nice time playing and having strong and friendly community. How we imagine best way for achieving that, may differ, that's why we are discussing here and in other places.

I just used "We" as I said, assuming that my opinion is shared by more people. Nothing offensive or inpropriate about that.

[juni3227]

Spaced Out have some issues due to... Um... if you saw the achievement statistics, there is only 1 % who went oil biome, which... um... long before space industry.... or 0.1% of who went unfreeze dupe in a cryo...

Yeah... I see a lack of feedback because of that. I wish they made some "there is already almost everything you need to go to space" map for testing, but I joined this expansion pack late.

Most of newbies die around 100 cycles or so. if they went 300, then its a miracle.

If only they put "HEY Steam turbine actually delete heat"

kind of hint, that would be nice. That is where everyone dies in the first play through.

 

[Sasza22]

5 hours ago, juni3227 said:

or 0.1% of who went unfreeze dupe in a cryo...

I believe this is a pretty new achievement. I don`t have it either and i`ve unfrozen 10+ dupes already before it was added. As for people giving up early it`s pretty common in games like this. A lot of people just play 50-100 cycles and give up. Similar a lot people in DST don`t survive the first winter.