Diminishing Returns of Damage Modifiers and Debunking Flawed Arguments

[Cheggf]

6 minutes ago, Third Porkus said:

You can find the Wolf strat if you look hard enough, or I'll post it when I get World Record, but obviously people won't believe you tell you demonstrate it or show it.

Sure thing. I'll show you it when I get the world record with it. It'll be awhile, though, 'cause it's just so overpowered. Really hard to get world record with how insanely overpowered it is.

[Third Porkus]

6 minutes ago, Cheggf said:

Sure thing. I'll show you it when I get the world record with it. It'll be awhile, though, 'cause it's just so overpowered. Really hard to get world record with how insanely overpowered it is.

It is, current World Record is day 2 Unseeded using this technique. There is RNG in speedruns dumbass you can't just use a strat thats so good it glitches and you kill the boss in 10 seconds of spawning in, there are factors.

[ImDaMisterL]

Hey everyone, just a reminder to keep your posts respectful, constructive and on topic in our forums. Thanks

[Third Porkus]

12 minutes ago, ImDaMisterL said:

Hey everyone, just a reminder to keep your posts respectful, constructive and on topic in our forums. Thanks

Just so I know is there a rule section in the forums that I am unaware of? Or is it more an unspoken thing?

[Cheggf]

3 minutes ago, Third Porkus said:

Just so I know is there a rule section in the forums that I am unaware of? Or is it more an unspoken thing?

At the top of every page.

[Third Porkus]

3 minutes ago, Cheggf said:

At the top of every page.

I am very Oblivious lol, still don't see where though

[Lovely Roses]

2 hours ago, Third Porkus said:

I am very Oblivious lol, still don't see where though

It's a little hard to see but its there

[Third Porkus]

1 minute ago, Lovely Roses said:

It's a little hard to see but its there

Oh what the, I'll check that out

[ArubaroBeefalo]

wendy being op was something obv one week after the refresh release...

[Third Porkus]

49 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

wendy being op was something obv one week after the refresh release...

She isn't really Op. No character is truly Op, strats can OP and they work better as some characters. The Bee Queen method I mentioned as Wolf works as anyone but it's only actually useful as people with large damage boost since early Bee Queen kills is useful and takes tons less resources. Any character can not just survive indefinitely, but do a massive amount immediately. After YOTB any character has massive speed, and also cheese strategies work on the major and high resource bosses like Fuelweaver and Bee Queen. So in the end the difference between characters is notable, but not a big problem. That said after lots of consideration Wendy is around 5th best character. With other food methods like Volt Goats, Pig Farm, Bee Boxes, that can all be set up in Autumn, along with Shadow Pieces, Bee Queen and Ruins done as any character (except Wurt she would set up different food) so Wendy food isn't super great, the main factor in making best character is speed and importantly most expensive speeds. Wolfgang cost 24 honey a day and accounted for time picking honey eating and the loss of hunger he loses he has 20% speedboost and 1.93 damage, making him one cheapest speedboost after first 10 days (food set up) and the cheapest late game speedboost. 

[Third Porkus]

Unrelated, was there any Debug Console for the original beta release of Don't Starve? (November 15th 2012 Or So)

[HowlVoid]

On 5/11/2021 at 11:31 AM, Friendly Grass said:

You’re spending more resources on jelly and buffs for less other resources saved, netting you a loss. I clearly explained how Wolfgang saves 30% resources while using jelly while Wilson saves 60% resources. And I’m just describing the inaccuracies of the particular argument of the 6x damage modifier. 

Where are you getting these numbers from?

100/2=50 50/3= 16.67. Wolfgang

100/3=33.33. Wilson

16.67x2= 33.34 Wolfgang is saving twice as many resources.

Group 1:

50/3=16.67 Wilson 1 50/3=  16.67 Wilson 2

16.67x2=33.33. 33.33/2  will be 16.67 same as 100/6

TWO Wilsons just saved as many resources as 1 Wolfgand did. TWO.

Group 2:

50/3= 16.67 Wilson 1 50/2=25. 25/3=8.33 Wolfgang

16.67+ 8.33=25. 25/2= 12.5 (higher margin of error due to multiple rounding) 

100/9= 11.11 (more accurate)

Because there are less available resources from the start (50) Wolfgang saves less but still saves half of what "Wilson 2" saved. This has nothing to do with Wolfgang getting less out of his damage multiplier and more to do with there being less total resources available (when split), thus giving him a lesser amount of resources saved. All this proves is Wolfgang's average when pairing up with non-Wolfgangs has diminishing effects. How can you not see that? Has nothing to do damage multipliers but rather lack there of.

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What if I told you this is a multiplayer game. Just because a multiplayer scenario might not be ideal for Wolfgang doesn’t mean I wont include it.

Great. All you proved is that Wolfgang's ability to half resources is deminished because he has to share those resources with a non-wolfgang. 

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That’s half. The whole main point I explained in my post was that that half in this situation is only 16.66% of resources saved. So Wolfgang only saves 16.66% resources here for a 3x hunger drain and no other character perks.

Take dragonfly and its 27500 hp

Wilson with a spiced jelly kills it in 135 hits and if you don't kill it in 4 min that's another spiced jelly.

Wolfgang kills it in 68 hits and possibly saves a spiced jelly by killing it in less than 4min. Great now you saved resources and can kill it again. Meanwhile Wilson used two jellys and has 55 of a darksword left.

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The dark swords example didn’t make sense to you. If percent resources doesn’t either and you’re still saying “that’s half” then I don’t know what else to say.

If you cant see the BIG PICTURE, then I cant help you honestly. Half resources and time saved accumulates, so that 16%? Yes that matters. 16% over the course of a 1000 day world means big stonks in the end.  

On 5/11/2021 at 11:44 AM, Friendly Grass said:

Hey man this is how forums go. So far I haven't attacked you nor is there some "riot" coming after you like you claim. The whole reason why I'm going far out of my way to argue is because I don't think I'm wasting my time. However, if you're someone who cant take criticism and thinks that because you can explain something with math, everyone's counter arguments instantly become invalid; then maybe I am wasting my time and you're not as reasonable as I thought.

[Dextops]

ha imagine being able to do math couldn't be me

[Baark0]

Damn this thread is wild. Anyway I'm pretty sure op is just trying to say that the more damage multipliers/sources you have, the more resources you spend.

To kill Klaus, a Wilson wielding dark swords would need 222 hits (for both phases). 2 Wilsons however, can kill a klaus in 111 hits each. This however, means you must spend twice as many dark swords to kill a boss in half the time. In the Wolfgang + Wilson example, sure you can kill the boss like 3x faster, but the Wilson's dark swords could be used by Wolfgang, which would end up saving durability and resources in exchange for a slightly longer fight. Throw in a jelly and you have to account for the time spent cooking the jelly, time which also couldve been spent just outright killing Klaus.

Really, I don't see a right or wrong answer here, it's pretty much up to the player to decide if they want to save time or resources. Of course, late game DST boils down to wasting tons of resources on stupid/menial things, I mean, sure, you don't NEED 30 houndius shootius to kill bee queen, but if you don't mind spending the resources for it, why not? DST is a sandbox game at this point, spend resources on stupid stuff, that's part of the fun imo.

[Yuuko]

21 hours ago, Cheggf said:

Wolfgang's large hunger drain is a lot more of a downside than most of the cast has.

His hunger drain is a paltry drawback considering how much food this game gives you.  Combining his damage and speed boosts he could leave to fight something and come back with double the meat in under half the time.  Stack crock pots, gg.  imo its on par with WX losing health in water, or Wicker being unable to sleep.  Super easy, barely an inconvenience.

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Wendy can solo things a lot better than Wolfgang can (in addition to being able to do a lot more than just fight bosses) & she has even less of a downside of -25% damage against shadows. Also, anyone can solo anything without help.

A==OP, sure, B==OP yeah, neither point invalidates the other.  In fact the argument against stacking multipliers applies identically to Wolfgang and Wendy.  Kinda annoying people keep trying to distract balance discussions with calling out Wendy...  She is effected by this exactly the same as Wolfgang is.

16 hours ago, Friendly Grass said:

Except it is the issue because that’s what I see brought up on forums on a weekly basis. And even explaining how simple math invalidates this claim has caused riots soo ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Simple math does not invalidate it though.  Wolfgang's initial 2x bonus puts him so far ahead, but gains are gains.  You don't see Walmart caring less about 0.5% gross just because its only 0.5%.  Small percentages mean more with big numbers.  By focusing on remaining resources you frame it in 1 way to make it seem like it isn't an issue, but DST is not a finite game.  Every time you traverse the map, and every time you defeat a boss, Wolfgang will save that much more time over any other character.  Every bit of time Wolfgang goes out of his way to get this extra damage boost is equal to what Wilson must do, so there is zero additional cost incurred by Wolfgang over Wilson to maximize his multipliers.

If you don't care about that, that's okay.  But why argue it then?  You want riots?  Don't shrug, you're the one who brought it up.

[Well-met]

13 hours ago, Third Porkus said:

After YOTB any character has massive speed

huh i guess taming never existed before year of the beefalo

[Friendly Grass]

7 hours ago, Shosuko said:

Spoiler

 

Simple math does not invalidate it though.  Wolfgang's initial 2x bonus puts him so far ahead, but gains are gains.  You don't see Walmart caring less about 0.5% gross just because its only 0.5%.  Small percentages mean more with big numbers.  By focusing on remaining resources you frame it in 1 way to make it seem like it isn't an issue, but DST is not a finite game.  Every time you traverse the map, and every time you defeat a boss, Wolfgang will save that much more time over any other character.  Every bit of time Wolfgang goes out of his way to get this extra damage boost is equal to what Wilson must do, so there is zero additional cost incurred by Wolfgang over Wilson to maximize his multipliers.

If you don't care about that, that's okay.  But why argue it then?  You want riots?  Don't shrug, you're the one who brought it up.

I was talking about stacking multipliers. I’m unsure what you’re talking about. This thread was never meant to be a Wolfgang op discussion. I just wanted to let people know that stacking multipliers isn’t actually good as they thought, and may not be worth it. And you all just made up claims?

And you realize volt goat jelly and pepper flakes have costs, right? I assumed everyone knew that but I should have been more clear.

[Copyafriend]

1 hour ago, Friendly Grass said:

I was talking about stacking multipliers. I’m unsure what you’re talking about. This thread was never meant to be a Wolfgang op discussion. I just wanted to let people know that stacking multipliers isn’t actually good as they thought, and may not be worth it. And you all just made up claims?

And you realize volt goat jelly and pepper flakes have costs, right? I assumed everyone knew that but I should have been more clear.

Well you may SAY it was never about wolfgang, but it certainly does not come off that way. 
And yes, there are in fact diminishing returns on resources saved, but does it really matter? With nothing but food and a jelly (not even spiced) you’re saving approximately 80% of the resources you would otherwise need, in addition to having a slightly easier time dodging tbe boss and also having the second largest healthpool, with the only larger pool requiring an extremely limited resource. I think the 80% fully justifies even switching to warly, making the jelly, then switcjing to wolf for the fight, then switching back. Considering the alternative is either spending 2 purple gems for a 60% reduction with a jelly on your main character, or getting no reduction compared to normal gameplay i think i’ll spend 3 and a volt goat horn and waste very little armor and weapons to kill a raid boss

[Yuuko]

5 hours ago, Friendly Grass said:

I was talking about stacking multipliers. I’m unsure what you’re talking about. This thread was never meant to be a Wolfgang op discussion. I just wanted to let people know that stacking multipliers isn’t actually good as they thought, and may not be worth it. And you all just made up claims?

And you realize volt goat jelly and pepper flakes have costs, right? I assumed everyone knew that but I should have been more clear.

1) As I said, this is part of a larger discussion.  You can't isolate this.  You can't have this conversation in a vacuum.

2) ItHoUgHtEvErYoNeKnEw - We know there is a cost, don't condescend like we're stupid and don't know that.  Wilson and Wolfgang incur the same cost, so you can't look at Wolfgang and say "this is so out of the way" lol.  Yes the 2nd and 3rd halving didn't reduce it as much as the first one, but its still a significant drop especially factoring in how often large health bosses need to be defeated.