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AI behavior feels unfinished and feels like it limits the player's strategies


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I'm not sure where to post this, but with a few tests of the new DLC, I feel a bit disenchanted with the experience. Given how poorly the AI can be at responding to anything without input, there needs to be a way to order your crew to detain duplicates who go on multiple day long tantrums and destroy vital systems. Waiting for them to "Calm" down to then cheese their death to the side of the map makes no sense in Space while also being super gamey and is in no sense a valid option for a mission like this. We can attack the critters, let us take out deserters in a similar fashion. Makes coming back to the game difficult, and it just feels unfinished as there's no way to interact with the whiny baby beyond game over or a reload after becoming discouraged after hundreds of cycles.

I understand if you want to be all dumbly friendly with your dupes, hell I may work them hard but I treat my dupes very well and sometimes the situation warrants extreme measures when oxygen is running low.

So I feel we need a fix to these outliers and insurgents, like unless there's a Security Ability and a Prison System/Day-Care so I can throw these whiny babies in the sad tank for a bit to calm down while everyone else is suffocating, something has to give. 'Cause it feels there was more thought could be put into it beyond "haha duplicate get mad and make silly noises".

 

Td;lr: I know it's pretty specific, but it came up a few times in different play troughs. The new DLC is nice and all - this is not bashing that; but updates and re-imaginings for tired old features/mechanics like these is a must, though people settle in their own play-styles I'm sure, so I don't expect it to be a popular opinion.

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More of a postface and an apology for the abrasive language; but I do love the game even with it's flaws, and lookin' at it - a way to hamper destructive behaviors would be the touch. Something to allow a bit more interaction with the Dupes in order to curb or steer them in the right direction. Using one to bait an upset one into actions or leading them away from things via taunts, or even ways to lead tasking Dupes to the correct tasks or out of traps they make for themselves without pulling the entire colony?

 

Regardless of my double posting, any input would be welcome; I can't be the only one who has suffered at the hands of their minions.

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21 hours ago, Yunru said:

Have you tried not stressing them into such an extreme reaction? 

That's a reply alright; I need some comprehension lol. They had all the amenities: a nice massage bed room, plenty of food, ample water, a grand hall and a cozy set up. Too much Oxylite and not enough expansion for 7 Dupes caused some pressure and a lack of air. In trying to have them dig and build some Rust Deoxidizers, two lost it and tore through the place. One crying aggressively and the other actually damaging all the power/oxygen generators that were spread throughout the base while the rest couldn't respond past the crier who followed his angry master - I could not save it and posted this. I'm still realling, sorry.

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18 minutes ago, Yunru said:

Sorry if it sounds antagonistic, I'm not good enough with multiple negatives to work out a sentence that doesn't. 

No, no - I apologize; I re-read what you said and it was 100% my error. I edited to adjust, but the stress was real on both sides it seems. I've taken a breath, though I've seen some carnage - just never the precision attacks and crowd control that destructive and Criers have. The one methodically hit every generator and oxygen producers before going for the walls while the other ran around and cried at anyone who tried to get close to fix it while half ass fixing it themselves very slowly. They were all locked in animations trying to console the one and then cowering from the other while running out of air and refusing to dig or fix anything.

It was a bit extreme,and worse was it wasn't *that* dire for everything until the two snapped, there wasn't any way to interact. I could only watch until one of the crowd snuck out of the stun lock to use the bathroom. Bless their small bladder and Mole hands.

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8 hours ago, SomeSchmuch said:

Too much Oxylite and not enough expansion for 7 Dupes caused some pressure

Do you have high pressure? Popped eardrums is a big stressor. Generally stress shouldn’t be an issue unless you play max stress. Maybe pay attention to debuffs the dupes have to identify what’s stressing them out, sounds like good amenities, maybe too many skills?

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let me see if I understand ... you have problems with the stress of the dupes, and so I wanted a solution to which you could neatly kill these "riotous" duplicates or send them to prison or daycare so that they return to good behavior after a time of deprivation and punishment

in option 1 (kill):
you would still be without a duplicate to manage life support systems or another function that was required for his presence, but from what I understand you seem to want the death of a duplicate to be felt by others as an example for them they no longer had "stressed" behaviors so they wouldn't suffer the same end, and who put them on the edge were their orders?
soon you would also have to pick up another dupe from zero, with no experience at all ... but indoctrinated by fear ...

in option 2 (prison)
you would be without a duplicate and you would have to have an area of your base built and specifically supplied with resources so that the duplicate installed there would not die, he would not do anything just "cloistered" while the entire base would fight for the maintenance of the base at the same time as providing resources for the one who is doing nothing but is getting a debuff of "arrested" and then after serving the sentence be more friendly and less "stressed" and the others take it as an example, while you are with a less duplicate to perform the tasks and as I said before because I was following your orders and you either miss your dupe or take one more to make up for the lack

and then all this after they were "indoctrinated" or "punished" so what? would they give morale to others at the base? to reduce their stress for fear of punishment?

well ... there are 2 things you can do that will technically achieve your goals
if you want to ward off a dupe with a "penalty" of losing him for a while while he calms down and he doesn't produce anything effective for your base
1) create a different routine for the stressed dupe, bigger leisure routines decrease stress
2) to complement their "arrest" with the first:https://oxygennotincluded.gamepedia.com/Massage_Table
this is basically prison, isn't it? being attached to a massage chair depending on the dupe, it will take a long time to get out
you will be without the dupe for a while, while he will be punished by wooden paddles on his back!
poor little thing! with that, the dupe will be away for a while while he de-stresses and returns brand new!

now if you just want to kill them for your pleasure and to discount their anger, this is not difficult, send him to a place with the command to send the dupe to a specific place, send him to close himself and soon he will be dead

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13 hours ago, SomeSchmuch said:

duplicates who go on multiple day long tantrums and destroy vital systems

Quote

AI behavior feels unfinished and feels like it limits the player's strategies

 

I'm not sure why you're assuming this is a problem with the game.  If that annoys you, don't do it.

I haven't seen a single stress reaction in a long time. I've started playing in August '19 and by September '19 I had learned how not to stress the dups.

Also, stress existed before the DLC, and even if the DLC may add a bit more to the stress, I haven't changed the way I play at all.

Just keep a positive morale balance.  Unless you're playing with harder settings then, even more, don't do it if that's not what you want.

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6 hours ago, TheMule said:

That's because it's been dulled down, you should of tried it when it first came out stress was horrible, and that was before slime lung came out lol. Now it's ten times easier with some actual decent gear we can destress them with ease.  However to the poster, have you set a schedule for destressing? I have one as a back up emergency all in rest mode with bathroom and sleep. it can go from 90% to almost 0 in just one cycle. 
This game is amazing just got to prioritise the right things. what cycle you on? 

6 hours ago, TheMule said:

 

I'm not sure why you're assuming this is a problem with the game.  If that annoys you, don't do it.

I haven't seen a single stress reaction in a long time. I've started playing in August '19 and by September '19 I had learned how not to stress the dups.

Also, stress existed before the DLC, and even if the DLC may add a bit more to the stress, I haven't changed the way I play at all.

Just keep a positive morale balance.  Unless you're playing with harder settings then, even more, don't do it if that's not what you want.

 

 

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Stress is kind of a defeat condition in this game. Disease used to be one as well but got changed. Generally if you let too many dupes reach high stress levels it should be game over, similarly to when you don`t produce enough food or oxygen for the colony. The stressed dupes are supposed to hinder you and lead to a disaster state.

Now it always feels bad when something goes wrong and you don`t have tools to do anything. You are just left watching a dupe go and break stuff. But you get warnings ahead of time. Last time dupes got 100% stress per cycle was when allergies were super strong. Now it takes multiple cycles to get there and there should be something you can do.

The worst stresser currently seems to be the sopping wet debuff which is pretty common in the swamp start. But even with that happening providing positive morale should be enough to counteract it most f the time. For scenarios where it`s not you can use the massage table to reduce stress.

The idea to lock the dupe until he calms down is interesting but only adresses one of the stress reactions. The other might hinder your base as well.

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On 1/28/2021 at 4:02 AM, Tytan said:

let me see if I understand ... you have problems with the stress of the dupes, and so I wanted a solution to which you could neatly kill these "riotous" duplicates or send them to prison or daycare so that they return to good behavior after a time of deprivation and punishment

in option 1 (kill):
you would still be without a duplicate to manage life support systems or another function that was required for his presence, but from what I understand you seem to want the death of a duplicate to be felt by others as an example for them they no longer had "stressed" behaviors so they wouldn't suffer the same end, and who put them on the edge were their orders?
soon you would also have to pick up another dupe from zero, with no experience at all ... but indoctrinated by fear ...

in option 2 (prison)
you would be without a duplicate and you would have to have an area of your base built and specifically supplied with resources so that the duplicate installed there would not die, he would not do anything just "cloistered" while the entire base would fight for the maintenance of the base at the same time as providing resources for the one who is doing nothing but is getting a debuff of "arrested" and then after serving the sentence be more friendly and less "stressed" and the others take it as an example, while you are with a less duplicate to perform the tasks and as I said before because I was following your orders and you either miss your dupe or take one more to make up for the lack

and then all this after they were "indoctrinated" or "punished" so what? would they give morale to others at the base? to reduce their stress for fear of punishment?

well ... there are 2 things you can do that will technically achieve your goals
if you want to ward off a dupe with a "penalty" of losing him for a while while he calms down and he doesn't produce anything effective for your base
1) create a different routine for the stressed dupe, bigger leisure routines decrease stress
2) to complement their "arrest" with the first:https://oxygennotincluded.gamepedia.com/Massage_Table
this is basically prison, isn't it? being attached to a massage chair depending on the dupe, it will take a long time to get out
you will be without the dupe for a while, while he will be punished by wooden paddles on his back!
poor little thing! with that, the dupe will be away for a while while he de-stresses and returns brand new!

now if you just want to kill them for your pleasure and to discount their anger, this is not difficult, send him to a place with the command to send the dupe to a specific place, send him to close himself and soon he will be dead

This doesn't work when O2 is null and the dupes are destroying and obstructing other dupe repairs during last ditch efforts of repairs. I found out a dupe will ignore their lives and leave triage beds to fulfill yellow alerts. Another badly designed game play mechanic when they don't know how to properly assign AI priorities. A combo of AI intentionally trying to kill themselves leaving triage beds, and other issues prevented the time consuming fixes you suggested. A massage room doesn't work with no air, and seeing a smug face that just destroyed the air production is tilting.  

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2 hours ago, SomeSchmuch said:

Another badly designed game play mechanic

you keep repeating that... stressed dups are supposed to be extremely annoying, you should not have them so stressed in the first place. The game is punishing you for bad management of your dups. Skill scrub them and assign less skill points, then find ways improve their morale. E.g. do all of them have +6 from a Great Hall and +8 from eating BBQ? With +2 from a washroom and +1 from barracks (and +1 for being a dup) you should get 18 morale, which should cover most early and mid game builds with enough to spare to counter random stress debuffs. Of course make sure your dups eat and sleep regularly.

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right...
but then nothing in the game works without O2.
that way neither the "prison" you held would work, nor would killing a dupe work since they are all about to die

the strategy is the opposite, it is not trying to deal with a stressed dupe, but rather avoiding the same, and when I say this it is not to try to avoid it when he gets 80% stress, but with something around 50% so that you can have a point of return, it is the same as in the don't starve, it is not to eat when taking hunger damage, it is to eat when hunger is low

you have to start to design what you want to do based on how much stress this will cause and not stress the dupe with low morale conditions and then remedy when it is about to start screwing ...

and this is just like real life, so there are working hours in real life, so there is time for lunch, time for rest, time to go to the bathroom (and all of this even at work), and when you are out of work you have more time for you ... and yet there are jobs that make people go into depression because they suck too much of it, so people look for better jobs and etc ...
Do you also know where you had no option to choose or not to work and rest? in slavery ... and many rebelled even though they cost their lives and tried to escape ...

between trying to fight for life and living only for work, they went into depression and preferred to let their life end...
signed: your dupes

 

or else...

image.png.a0e4f73a33a91dd86338d4c97a5bb3d1.png

 

image.thumb.png.d8f2159f589592b6135b8f6a5ad940c6.png

 

image.thumb.png.39193d9da3fabf644741e1ab1fc371cb.png

 

as don't starve say: "your world, your rules!"
put it in no-sweet mode, or just take out the
options: reaction to stress, and ready they will stop reacting when stressed.
or: just take the stress away!
or: increase morale directly here and decrease the amount of latent stress

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A good tip is to pay attention to décor. Simply having your floors clean can be the difference between stress building and stress fading.

 

Also if you swap the last sleep slot in the routine for a downtime one dupes will apparently keep sleeping through it if tired, but still get the morale boost from having extra downtime.

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On 1/28/2021 at 3:55 AM, SomeSchmuch said:

So I feel we need a fix to these outliers and insurgents, like unless there's a Security Ability and a Prison System/Day-Care so I can throw these whiny babies in the sad tank for a bit to calm down while everyone else is suffocating, something has to give

  1. Select wigging out Dupe
  2. Click "Move to"
  3. Send him into a room
  4. Change door permissions on room to exclude him
  5. ???
  6. PROFIT
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1 hour ago, he77789 said:

Nope. It does interrupt crying and vomiting, but it does not interrupt binge eating nor destruction.

I deal with my binge eaters by door-controlling them from the kitchen and the farm, keeps them away from the bulk edibles and they can avoid starvation by scavenging other's leftovers.

THE CIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIRCLE OF LIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIFE

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On 2/1/2021 at 12:55 AM, Tsabo said:

I deal with my binge eaters by door-controlling them from the kitchen and the farm, keeps them away from the bulk edibles and they can avoid starvation by scavenging other's leftovers.

That sounds like a good idea, but how are your dupes that stressed to start eating that much? With decor-spam, my dupes never go above 20% stress (and that is when they go into the oil biome without their atmosuit)

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On 2/5/2021 at 5:54 AM, 2tallyGr8 said:

That sounds like a good idea, but how are your dupes that stressed to start eating that much? With decor-spam, my dupes never go above 20% stress (and that is when they go into the oil biome without their atmosuit)

I don't actually know how they get that stressed. In my last game there were two distinct periods of time where everyone (like, 16 dupes) had constantly escalating stress and my 5 oldest (and therefore highest-skilled and therefore lowest morale) were on 100% constantly even if they sat in the massage room every waking moment.

And then, apparently without me doing anything to solve it (because how can I fix something I don't understand?) whatever was skyrocketing their stress went away and I descended back to normal operations.

Usually when this crap happens it's because somehow either my Great Hall or my Nature Preserve got accidentally opened up so it stops counting as a room, or something, but that definatly wasn't what's happening because it's the first thing I checked. A continuing mystery, then.

P.S. what's the best method for decor spam? Just leave spaces in between all your normal buildings to cram a few masterpiece statues?

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You can check the stress breakdown in the dupe info screen. It tells you the sources of stress change on a particular day.

If there's a spike of stress, maybe check if dupes are sopping wet from working under liquids, or check if they have popped eardrums from working in an environment with high gas pressure. They increase the dupe's stress by at least 20% per day, and the effect lasts for at least half a day(it gets reset if the dupe enters a high gas pressure env or under liquid env, so it can stack up under control).

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First of all my boy, this is NOT Rimworld! This is ONI. If you want to detain misbehaving colonists, go play Rimworld, there they even might fight back.

ONI is a comics art style family friendly simulator which have just about enough physics in it to constantly confuse people pointing at their physics books and saying that's not how it is in real life.

The only dumb thing AI does for me is getting stuck, I mean learn to step back damn you!

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