Will Willow need a new rework? Discussion on the highest systems of pyromania and madness.

[Pop Guy]

Willow:

A character who is literally referred to as "The Firestarter".
A character who, during the most tender childhood, manifested devastating pyrokinetic powers.
A character who is so insane in DS DLC that he commits suicide by setting fire to his own boat and drowning in excruciating suffering.
Anyone who denies Willow's visceral connection with fire and the act of firing at things would deny the evidence.
Yet Willow doesn't base her gameplay on fire. But on a stuffed bear infused with some supernatural force that has nothing to do with pyromania.
I think this inconsistency between intentions and actual character is unsustainable.

 

How to manage fire in a game like DST without Willow being annoying and ruining the team.

We need a new type of "fire": not all fires are the same, there are chemical fires with bizarre or unusual properties. Greek fire, for example, was a flammable mixture that could not be extinguished by water.
But in DS, moreover, there are already two types of supernatural fire that transcend any physical sense: the endothermic fire and the black flame of the nightmare torch.
A new type of fire, therefore, would be perfectly consistent with the two already present in the game.

Willow could distill, through her own personal item creation tab, flammable substances with more useful properties than traditional torch incidents, let's see which ones:

Green fire: A type of fire that does not spread to structures or players, but only to the target. It would allow you to set fire to an enemy or a structure in a controlled manner and completely safe way.
Also, it wouldn't consume the slain creature's loot, (but it still cooks the meat.)

Blue Fire: A far more devastating fire than traditional fire, dealing four times the damage of normal fire every second. Difficult to control and dangerous for players, this is a resource that Willow or a character with scalemail should only use.
Enemies who die consumed by blue fire drop only ash.

Purple Fire: A supernatural fire that heals wounds and bruises rather than consuming flesh or structures. Regenerates the health of players who are hit, but also of enemies, so you have to use it wisely.

Also, Willow should have the ability to be able to "wax" structures with beeswax, so that they become completely flame immune. This is an extremely expensive method, but it guarantees the safety of key structures from the danger of fires.

 

How to compensate for these new abilities so that Willow remains a complicated character to manage?

You could make her more vulnerable to shadows, a recurring nightmare from her earliest childhood.

When struck by a shadow, Willow would have a 33% chance of developing "horror".

The horror would be very punishing for the unwary adventurers who hasten the ruins.

The horror permanently lowers Willow's sanity, as well as reducing her field of vision and giving her tremors that can cause objects to slip out of hand.

It would last four days (32 minutes of gameplay), and could only be cured in two ways: by feeding Willow her favorite dish (Spicy Chili), or by having her "reheated" near a nightmare flame. Both methods would cure a few minutes of horror and, if repeated, could make Willow come to her senses much faster.

Willow would be right to use BERNIE! in this way to defend herself, as well as she would have an interest in preparing large doses of her favorite dish before leaving on a mission.

 

And the lighter?

Well, in Willow's hands it should have infinite durability, of course. It could also be upgraded in an ancient pseudoscientific station to provide an area of light similar to that of a torch.

 

Bottom line: I tried to think how Willow could have a style of play tied to her tradition and that was consistent with what we know about her. I don't know if it's perfect, but it seems to me that it's on track to give Willow something that truly mirrors her psyche.

 

[Karitha]

I think that would make her Witch instead of Willow. Special fires seems magical.

The only thing I want is the fires that started by her lighter should not spread.

[W0l0l0]

1 hour ago, Slagger said:

Witch instead of Willow

She already is quite similar to a witch. If I remember correctly there is official artwork of her that resembles a Witch, broom and all. 

In regards to the post, I absolutely agree there's not enough fire focus with Willow nowadays, she plays more like Wendy with her teddy.

I don't know if the fire types are the way to do it, but I like the idea. Especially since it would allow Klei to avoid completely overhauling fire as a mechanic. 

One problem is that Bernie would likely have to be nerfed if the focus is reshifted, which would delete a lot of work by Klei.

I had an idea where Willow could "capture" flames from a distance (like Dumbledore's lighter thingy) to put them out and use them later on, but as of now fire is a very meh weapon.

[Mike23Ua]

I’ve never seen Willow as a Pryokinetic, she’s NOT Jean Grey of the X-Men.. I’ve always just seen her as the Fire Immune.

She Needs a lighter to start fires, & afterwards she can stand in the fire un-harmed.

If she was a TRUE Pyrokinetic she would have those Jean Grey powers I just mentioned, wouldn’t need a lighter, a torch or anything because she could just hold a floating ball of fire above the palm of her hand..

But Klei made her character design include needing a lighter, not only does she need this lighter but there’s even a character belongings skin set for an alternate lighter skin.

To give her Jean Grey levels of Pyrokinetic power would also mean the lighter as an item for her no longer makes sense and should be removed.

Now if they want to give Willow an Ultimate Power- I would want something crazy like being able to use her lighter to set Bernie on fire when in Enraged mode so he also deals DoT with his attacks.. (and purely for gameplay purposes Bernie’s fire won’t spread) 

But even that.... sounds iffy at best.

I think she’s fine enough as is, I would rather Klei focus on more new content and the remaining characters who haven’t had refreshes yet, then to turn Willow into a Pryrokinetic.

(Her animated shorts, vigenettes and even ALL the loading screens she’s been in next to Wilson will no longer make any sense if “Oh hey I can totally wave my hand in the air and a cool glowing ball of fire will light the way for us.. why on earth have we been using torches this long?”)

[ArubaroBeefalo]

i like her as she is

[MondayNight]

As a Willow-main player I don't fancy this proposal: over-complicates and spreads her pros and cons to the extremes, theoretically making her a lot more tedious to play without any apparent objective reason to warrant such a major modification aside debatable lore pin-points. Better keep characters neat and simple, not bloated with bombastic perks for dubious outcomes.

[Bluepufferfish]

Willow:

A character who has consistently been shown to have connections with insanity - whether through lighting fires when insane, Bernie pre and post rework, and her animated trailer

A character who during childhood saw insanity monsters and then lit a fire after seeing an insanity monster, subsequently burning down an orphanage - a direct correlation between her insanity, bernie, and fires, just like how her sanity raises when near them 

A character who. Ok hold up. The accidentally burning her own boat is actually pretty funny (if sad) but I don't think that's any more evidence than how she can burn items in her inventory in single player and kill deerclops in 10 seconds. Just a weird culmination of mechanics. 

That being said I do think that some more lighter based mechanics would be cool since they're often overshadowed by lanterns and campfires - honestly I rarely find myself cooking with the lighter because the cooked versions of most foods just aren't that much better, and I'll gladly take a small sanity penalty if it means keeping 6 seconds of precious light that I wont use efficiently. Cooking monster meat and mushies on the go is nice though. Otherwise she's fine as she is, and this is coming from a Willow main. 

[Bird Up]

I just want her to have a way to recall bernie, like abigail. And infinite lighter. 

I think she should actually stay warm while insane. Seems clear her fire powers are pronounced when she's insane, based on her single player ability and the DST Willow trailer.

[Knowbodie]

3 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

She Needs a lighter to start fires, & afterwards she can stand in the fire un-harmed.

 

Willow can start a fire without her lighter in the singleplayer game when at low sanity though...

 

Honestly, if you wanted to give Willow pyrokinetic powers, the only thing I'd think would work fine would be to create fires that don't damage structures at a cost of sanity (with a minimum sanity requirement so that you can't repetitively use it) or to add the singleplayer trait where she lights fire at low sanity except this fire doesn't have the risk of damaging structures.

I would rather that Willow would be able to put out large fires without needing proper equipment (rather than just extinguishing smoldering faster). Maybe she's sad that the fire would be gone so throw in a sanity penalty for doing so too. Having fire immunity and a quick way to fight fires can be a valuable ability and can be useful in a pinch. Heck, it would be good to have this so that if a newbie Willow messes up and burns base on accident, at least there's a chance for them make up for their mistake.

And maybe refuel the lighter with nightmare fuel. That's about it.

But yeah, I don't think I want a healing fire, an extra damage fire, or more sanity mechanics especially since she already has Bernie. It can overcomplicate things considering that Willow is a strong starter character for new players.

Personally I really enjoy playing Willow since she's a superior survivor especially if joining in Winter, Summer, or Lights-out worlds, but after the initial surviving part is done, a more resource efficient character is more appealing to me later in the game.

[HeatAndRun]

Willow is the best tanker in the game with BERNIE!. Rushing ruins as Willow with 2 bernie and 40 trusty tapes is very fun. I don't think she's a weak character at this moment.

But the only thing that could bring more QoL change to Willow is cheaper, consistent and stable way to summon BERNIE!, or at least being insane. Every time I kill nightmare creatures I need to eat something to lower my sanity manually, and that's the only inconvenient thing.

I simply don't wanna restore my sanity when I kill the shadow creatures as Willow.

Eh, what did I just hear? Wearing nightmare amulet? While rushing ruins? Who would try such thing, heh...

[ArubaroBeefalo]

6 minutes ago, HeatAndRun said:

Eh, what did I just hear? Wearing nightmare amulet? While rushing ruins? Who would try such thing, heh...

quick drop lantern and use head armor  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[HeatAndRun]

13 hours ago, Pop Guy said:

Also, Willow should have the ability to be able to "wax" structures with beeswax, so that they become completely flame immune. This is an extremely expensive method, but it guarantees the safety of key structures from the danger of fires.

Oh anyway, besides other things I think this idea is very clever. Making structures fireproof sounds like a very good way to build flingo-free base safe from wildfires and fire hounds. Though beehive is currently hardly renewable, using beewax to make structures fireproof seems not that viable.

[Cheggf]

15 minutes ago, HeatAndRun said:

Oh anyway, besides other things I think this idea is very clever. Making structures fireproof sounds like a very good way to build flingo-free base safe from wildfires and fire hounds. Though beehive is currently hardly renewable, using beewax to make structures fireproof seems not that viable.

He said it would only be for key structures and if it uses beeswax it would have to be. 3-12 wax for crock pots, 15+ wax for chests, 1-2 wax for birdcages, wax for an alchemy engine, wax for a shadow manipulator, wax for all the drying racks, wax for all the beeboxes, and wax for anything else you want like think tanks would not be very sustainable in addition to all the wax you already need for bee boxes and bundling wrap.

I'm not sure how useful being able to wax structures to make them fireproof would be. Maybe it might be a little useful in niche situations like you've only got enough resources to make one flingo but it leaves 2 or 3 structures exposed. I think it sounds like a fun idea, but in practice it wouldn't really get used.

13 hours ago, Pop Guy said:

You could make her more vulnerable to shadows, a recurring nightmare from her earliest childhood.

When struck by a shadow, Willow would have a 33% chance of developing "horror".

The horror would be very punishing for the unwary adventurers who hasten the ruins.

The horror permanently lowers Willow's sanity, as well as reducing her field of vision and giving her tremors that can cause objects to slip out of hand.

It would last four days (32 minutes of gameplay), and could only be cured in two ways: by feeding Willow her favorite dish (Spicy Chili), or by having her "reheated" near a nightmare flame. Both methods would cure a few minutes of horror and, if repeated, could make Willow come to her senses much faster.

Willow would be right to use BERNIE! in this way to defend herself, as well as she would have an interest in preparing large doses of her favorite dish before leaving on a mission.

I love characters with harsh downsides (My three most played are Maxwell, Warly, Wormwood) because I think a downside can be just as interesting if not moreso than an upside. But I think this downside is just way too harsh. Or way too annoying, whichever way you want to look at it. Getting struck by a shadow simply one single time could give you a 32 minute debuff where you have a small field of view and drop your items in addition to a lowered max sanity? That's outrageous. For people who don't know how to amass spicy chili this would be insanely annoying and for people who do they just ignore the downside completely and just lose a bunch of spicy chili instead.

If she were to get another downside I do like your idea of it being related to shadows because of her past, though. Maybe shadows deal more damage to her, or their hits lower her sanity, or a portion of their damage ignores armor, or something else where there's a clear 1 hit will equal 1 hit's worth of penalty instead of 1 hit may equal a 32 minute debuff.

[Yuuko]

I'm always surprised when I hear people say Willow with Bernie plays like Wendy with Abi...  They play VERY differently lol.  Abi can solo crowds of monsters with no action from Wendy at all.  When you are attacking whatever she is fighting you need to control aggro and although Abi can get pretty big she isn't the best tank... and if she falls she's at low health and low max health.  Meanwhile Bernie auto-tanks most monsters in the game but YOU gotta do the damage to kill them, however he is built for tanking so he has a massive health pool and can be instantly repaired to full.  You can even have multiple ready to go so there is very little downtime when 1 bernie falls.  The unique ability to aggro / tank / damage shadow creatures is also very unique to Bernie.  imo there is little comparison between these two, and when people compare them I wonder if they play them both or just think "these both have followers => same thing"

Anyway - I really like Willow how she is now.  She's been my top fav for the entirety of DS with only Wes coming close.  3rd spot is a pretty big drop tbh lol  I don't think she needs a rework at all.  I think she is useful and interesting enough to play as a main character in both solo and multiplayer games.

I do remember the original dangers she had of spontaneously lighting a fire when she was insane, but I never thought this was a psychic fire power, more that she'd light a fire with matches or something when she felt nervous and you couldn't do anything about it except raise her sanity back up.  I never felt like she had magical powers, just an affinity for the flame and a rebellious / destructive attitude.

I'm ambivalent about having an infinite fuel lighter.  The light radius upgrade sounds interesting, as does refueling it.  However they aren't things I would even rate as QOL improvements as much as unnecessary changes... <_<  I wouldn't turn them down, but I would rather Klei developed other aspects of the game instead XD

Your idea for multiple types of fire sounds nice but rather than giving them to Willow I'd say we should get a new fire staff.  The firestaff has long been a noob trap, causing many accidental base burnings and having only a few use cases.  Introducing a shadow fire staff, maybe with some new corrupted iridescent gem, which caused a fire that did increased fire damage to the target and surroundings yet did not spread or destroy loot could be useful.  Willow and anyone using a scalemail could enjoy this.  Maybe even get an ancient crafted scalemail.v2 that lights this dark fire in retaliation instead.

[Pop Guy]

13 hours ago, x0-VERSUS-1y said:

As a Willow-main player I don't fancy this proposal: over-complicates and spreads her pros and cons to the extremes, theoretically making her a lot more tedious to play without any apparent objective reason to warrant such a major modification aside debatable lore pin-points. Better keep characters neat and simple, not bloated with bombastic perks for dubious outcomes.

 

9 hours ago, Cheggf said:

I love characters with harsh downsides (My three most played are Maxwell, Warly, Wormwood) because I think a downside can be just as interesting if not moreso than an upside. But I think this downside is just way too harsh. Or way too annoying, whichever way you want to look at it. Getting struck by a shadow simply one single time could give you a 32 minute debuff where you have a small field of view and drop your items in addition to a lowered max sanity? That's outrageous. For people who don't know how to amass spicy chili this would be insanely annoying and for people who do they just ignore the downside completely and just lose a bunch of spicy chili instead.

 

I don't think the character is overly complicated; in any case if the problem is just that it could be excessively difficult to use it could reduce the probability of the horror arising or reduce its duration from 32 minutes to 24 or 16. I would like to emphasize that the Spicy Chili is not a difficult dish to cook, even in large quantities. Moreover, thanks to the cookbook, any player can, at any time, see how to prepare the recipe without problems. Willow would also have specified her need to eat Spicy Chili or rest near a Night Light; so that even the inexperienced player understands how to handle the situation. Also I think it's important for a character to be consistent with what we are told about him. 

 

21 hours ago, Slagger said:

I think that would make her Witch instead of Willow. Special fires seems magical.

The only thing I want is the fires that started by her lighter should not spread.

As convenient as a non-spreading fire would be, I wish it were something separate from the lighter. Or it might turn out that Willow's lighter is "magical"; but I don't know how much I would like it as a explanation.

However, Don't Starve is described on the main screen as, literally, "A game full of Science and Magic". Not only that: Willow had already been shown as a "witch" in some Klei arts; therefore, even if her "chemical" fires seemed more the result of witchcraft, I would not see anything inconsistent or discordant with what Klei has already shown us.

 

[Maxposting]

20 hours ago, W0l0l0 said:

If I remember correctly there is official artwork of her that resembles a Witch, broom and all. 

That was a halloween artwork from like, 2014.

[Karitha]

1 hour ago, __IvoCZE__ said:

That was a halloween artwork

So now that's make sense.

[W0l0l0]

10 hours ago, Shosuko said:

Big paragraph

I stand by what I say. You don't have to do the majority of the damage if you can mass produce Bernie's, so they play almost exactly the same but you can be more careless as Willow given that Bernie is very replaceable. They obviously have differences, (most notably Shadow creatures and area of effect differences) but they're the closest comparison. I played a lot of Willow, (admittedly I've played less Wendy, only like 10 hours worth)  perhaps we just have different playstyles.

10 hours ago, Shosuko said:

Anyway - I really like Willow how she is now...I think she is useful and interesting enough to play as a main character in both solo and multiplayer games.

I don't want this to be true, because then we'd have more of a reason to change Willow, but I think you're right. Willow feels weird with so little focus on fire, which is what I personally would like to change.

[Yuuko]

11 hours ago, W0l0l0 said:

I stand by what I say. You don't have to do the majority of the damage if you can mass produce Bernie's, so they play almost exactly the same but you can be more careless as Willow given that Bernie is very replaceable. They obviously have differences, (most notably Shadow creatures and area of effect differences) but they're the closest comparison. I played a lot of Willow, (admittedly I've played less Wendy, only like 10 hours worth)  perhaps we just have different playstyles.

That is absolutely NOT true.  Bernie deals a moderate amount of damage per hit but his attack rate is VERY slow and he often recasts his "aggro tantrum" during which he doesn't attack at all, together rendering his damage negligible.  The only creature he is actually suited to deal damage to are shadow creatures because they usually teleport when they're hit mitigating his atrocious attack speed, but even then I don't rely on his damage because I can get in 2-3 hits during the shadow creature's attack animation meaning his ability to tank is still his primary benefit even against the only creature type in the game he is suited to act as a damage dealer against.  There is *no* case where I consider Bernie's damage at all during any fight.

Mass producing Bernie does nothing to increase damage since only a full size Bernie deals any damage at all and there can only be 1 full size Bernie per Willow.  Even if you had a team of Willow so that you had 4 full size Bernie their damage would still be eclipsed by the 4 Willows attacking with axes...  Bernie deals 50 damage per hit, single target, and attacks every 2 seconds.  A single character with a hambat is attacking each second for 59 damage and can exploit damage multipliers to far exceed this amount.  Abigail doesn't deal as much damage as a player but she deals in full AOE around her at a per second rate dealing as much as 40 damage per hit at night.  Against 4 enemies Abi is dealing an effective dps of 100 per second in evening and 160 at night with zero assistance from Wendy.  There is no comparison in damage capability between Abigail and Bernie.

Seriously - comparing them is like comparing Wolfgang to Warly "because they both have access to damage multipliers" lol

Quote

I don't want this to be true, because then we'd have more of a reason to change Willow, but I think you're right. Willow feels weird with so little focus on fire, which is what I personally would like to change.

Why would having a character who is both useful and entertaining in both solo and multiplayer play be a reason Willow would need a rework?  Isn't the goal of the reworks to ensure that characters are interesting and useful in both solo and multiplayer worlds...?

[W0l0l0]

40 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

That is absolutely NOT true.  Bernie deals a moderate amount of damage per hit but his attack rate is VERY slow and he often recasts his "aggro tantrum" during which he doesn't attack at all, together rendering his damage negligible.  The only creature he is actually suited to deal damage to are shadow creatures because they usually teleport when they're hit mitigating his atrocious attack speed, but even then I don't rely on his damage because I can get in 2-3 hits during the shadow creature's attack animation meaning his ability to tank is still his primary benefit even against the only creature type in the game he is suited to act as a damage dealer against.  There is *no* case where I consider Bernie's damage at all during any fight.

Mass producing Bernie does nothing to increase damage since only a full size Bernie deals any damage at all and there can only be 1 full size Bernie per Willow.  Even if you had a team of Willow so that you had 4 full size Bernie their damage would still be eclipsed by the 4 Willows attacking with axes...  Bernie deals 50 damage per hit, single target, and attacks every 2 seconds.  A single character with a hambat is attacking each second for 59 damage and can exploit damage multipliers to far exceed this amount.  Abigail doesn't deal as much damage as a player but she deals in full AOE around her at a per second rate dealing as much as 40 damage per hit at night.  Against 4 enemies Abi is dealing an effective dps of 100 per second in evening and 160 at night with zero assistance from Wendy.  There is no comparison in damage capability between Abigail and Bernie.

I don't really care about the damage output comparisons of the two, I still use them in similar ways. Unless I'm farming a single mob I will also attack when using Abigail, so I still stand by what I said. I will still compare the two.

43 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

Why would having a character who is both useful and entertaining in both solo and multiplayer play be a reason Willow would need a rework?  Isn't the goal of the reworks to ensure that characters are interesting and useful in both solo and multiplayer worlds...?

I already said! Because she's not really focused around fire anymore. I understand that it's not the strongest reason, and that we may be trying to fix what ain't broke, but it is a reason nonetheless.

[Yuuko]

 

Quote

I already said! Because she's not really focused around fire anymore. I understand that it's not the strongest reason, and that we may be trying to fix what ain't broke, but it is a reason nonetheless.

Who cares if she is focused around fire?  She has a lighter, she's fire immune, and talks about burning everything down.  What more do you want?  An entire rework where she's secretly a firemage? lol hard pass.  Make a mod if that's what you want, it seems totally out of character for this childish delinquent with a lighter lol

8 minutes ago, W0l0l0 said:

I don't really care about the damage output comparisons of the two, I still use them in similar ways. Unless I'm farming a single mob I will also attack when using Abigail, so I still stand by what I said. I will still compare the two.

Not even close to the same:

Totally different, and totally useful in different ways.  There is nearly ZERO overlap between Willow and Wendy gameplay.

[W0l0l0]

7 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

Totally different, and totally useful in different ways.  There is nearly ZERO overlap between Willow and Wendy gameplay.

I still use them in similar ways, you're not going to convince me otherwise. I already knew that Abigail has an area of effect attack, and I still think they have a lot in common. 

9 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

Who cares if she is focused around fire?  She has a lighter, she's fire immune, and talks about burning everything down.  What more do you want?  An entire rework where she's secretly a firemage? lol hard pass.  Make a mod if that's what you want, it seems totally out of character for this childish delinquent with a lighter lol

Now you're just being rude.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

8 minutes ago, W0l0l0 said:

still think they have a lot in common

being mobs that helps

[Pop Guy]

1 hour ago, Shosuko said:

Who cares if she is focused around fire?  She has a lighter, she's fire immune, and talks about burning everything down.  What more do you want?  An entire rework where she's secretly a firemage? lol hard pass.  Make a mod if that's what you want, it seems totally out of character for this childish delinquent with a lighter lol

If you are frustrated by the topic, avoid commenting, please.

1 hour ago, W0l0l0 said:

I still use them in similar ways, you're not going to convince me otherwise. I already knew that Abigail has an area of effect attack, and I still think they have a lot in common. 

I agree, Bernie and Abigail give a similar feeling during my runs. The difference is that I use Abigail against some hordes and Bernie against some bosses. But the feeling, I repeat, is similar.

[Yuuko]

4 hours ago, Pop Guy said:

If you are frustrated by the topic, avoid commenting, please.

I'm not frustrated, but this here is patently false:

Quote

I agree, Bernie and Abigail give a similar feeling during my runs. The difference is that I use Abigail against some hordes and Bernie against some bosses. But the feeling, I repeat, is similar.

They absolutely do NOT give a similar feeling.  The only thing they have in common is that they are both followers, and that's basically where they end.  I don't know how horribly you are utilizing them to consider them even remotely similar.  Abigail is a damage source and only sometimes a tank.  Bernie is a tank, never a damage source.  If you're getting the same results you're going to have to prove it.  I posted a video above showing how different they are, as 5x Bernies die to a hound wave while Abigail clears them without breaking a sweat lol

If your response to a hound wave, or needing to farm spiders is to drop bernie on the ground and stand there dance emoting I'll believe you lolol  Otherwise don't try to argue that she plays like Wendy.