challenge No geyser map challenge

[cpy]

I just came up with an idea to play ONI the way it was meant to be! The old skool style! No charity pod and no geysers at all! Can you survive?

Also the most important question is, is there a mod that can set all geysers to zero?

[yoakenashi]

If you modify the badlands world gen yaml file and set the hidden geysers to zero, you can generate a world that only has two geysers (since only 2 generate openly in the caustic biome). I have been playing a map like this for the past few months, 1 chlorine and 1 cool steam.

[Mastermindx]

No geyser at all guarantees a slow death because there is no conservation of matter. For example, dupe consume 100g/s oxygen. It's not converted to CO2, it's just gone. So, sooner or later, you will run out of oxygen.

Maybe (just *maybe*), it's possible to survive with rocket bringing more resources, but since rocket typically burn as much fuel mass than they can bring back cargo, I don't believe this to be realistic.

Might be an interesting challenge to reach the temporal tear before colony fails though.

[village_idiot]

6 minutes ago, Mastermindx said:

No geyser at all guarantees a slow death because there is no conservation of matter. For example, dupe consume 100g/s oxygen. It's not converted to CO2, it's just gone. So, sooner or later, you will run out of oxygen.

Maybe (just *maybe*), it's possible to survive with rocket bringing more resources, but since rocket typically burn as much fuel mass than they can bring back cargo, I don't believe this to be realistic.

Might be an interesting challenge to reach the temporal tear before colony fails though.

There are still a few sources of extra CO2 or Water that can be processed to keep your dupes alive. Off the top of my head you can capture CO2 from asteroid impacts, and you can build extra long rocket tunnels for steam rockets that allow you to capture more steam than you put the rocket. Either of these could then be fed into various setups to produce O2 for your dupes.

[OxCD]

22 minutes ago, Mastermindx said:

No geyser at all guarantees a slow death because there is no conservation of matter. For example, dupe consume 100g/s oxygen. It's not converted to CO2, it's just gone. So, sooner or later, you will run out of oxygen.

Maybe (just *maybe*), it's possible to survive with rocket bringing more resources, but since rocket typically burn as much fuel mass than they can bring back cargo, I don't believe this to be realistic.

Might be an interesting challenge to reach the temporal tear before colony fails though.

Partly wrong. All you need to survive is water, for O2, and for farms (don't even need to supply farm, if you ranch Pacus, Voles, etc...). And there's a loop that is water positive.

1000g water gives 3330g oil and 33g NG using oil well.

You can use heat to refine 3330g oil into 3330g petrol (if you use the refinery, the loop will not be water positive).

3330g petrol gives back 1249g water using the petro gen.

33g NG gives back 25g water using the NG gen.

It gives 1274g total in PWater. Use 1000g to go back into the oil well, and the net gain is 274g. Each oil well can bring you max 274g/s.

 

[cpy]

Your weakness disgust me! Pips + arbor trees = free dirt, tons of free water.

Ok maybe 1 steam vent and one chlorine for oxygen or something.

[Mastermindx]

8 minutes ago, OxCD said:

1000g water gives 3330g oil and 33g NG using oil well.

I kindda assumed oil well were categorized as "geyser" for the purpose of this challenge since the goal seems to be to remove endless sources of resources.

[psusi]

20 minutes ago, cpy said:

Your weakness disgust me! Pips + arbor trees = free dirt, tons of free water.

Ok maybe 1 steam vent and one chlorine for oxygen or something.

Yep... in fact, I think I ran the numbers last week and even growing a few arbor trees domestically and allowing the polluted dirt to off-gas and clean it with deoderizers and produce a lot of O2 and if you have molten slicksters recycle the CO2 and burn the petrol too, you end up water positive.

[OxCD]

14 minutes ago, Mastermindx said:

I kindda assumed oil well were categorized as "geyser" for the purpose of this challenge since the goal seems to be to remove endless sources of resources.

Fair point ^^

[yoakenashi]

[MinhPham]

Challenge accepted .... kind of ... actually i want to get rid of every geyser/vent in late game if possible.

[cpy]

3 hours ago, Mastermindx said:

I kindda assumed oil well were categorized as "geyser" for the purpose of this challenge since the goal seems to be to remove endless sources of resources.

Geysers require water so they don't produce something out of nothing, this is ok by the book.

Plus I love the train sound they make

Here comes dat OIL! CHOO CHOO!

1 hour ago, MinhPham said:

Challenge accepted .... kind of ... actually i want to get rid of every geyser/vent in late game if possible.

That one does not count. You have to go from start for maximum enjoyment!

[cpy]

OK i think i figured it out!

First subworlds: you have to go through each of them and find geysers:

\OxygenNotIncluded\OxygenNotIncluded_Data\StreamingAssets\worldgen\subworlds

commented them so they will be disabled (add #) like this example, you only touch geyser: and below - poi lines

pointsOfInterest:
#  geysers_a:
#    - poi_jungle_geyser_steam
#  geysers_b:
#    - poi_jungle_geyser_methane
#    - poi_jungle_geyser_chlorine
  ruins_a:    
    - poi_jungle_lab_poolbottom
    - poi_jungle_buttongate
    - poi_jungle_lab_vinetank
    - poi_jungle_lab_daytimer
    - poi_jungle_frag_lightbugs
    - poi_jungle_frag_lockers
    - poi_jungle_oxylite_spiral

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Edited traits geoactive and geodormant like this so you change it to negative number

\OxygenNotIncluded\OxygenNotIncluded_Data\StreamingAssets\worldgen\traits

feature_geyser_generic: -4

--------------------------------------------------------------------

and lastly worlds you want to play

\OxygenNotIncluded\OxygenNotIncluded_Data\StreamingAssets\worldgen\worlds

globalFeatureTemplates:
  feature_geyser_generic: -12

 

After this there will be 0 geysers!

For extra hard mode you can edit oil subworlds to remove oil spots

# geysers_a:
#  - poi_oilpockets_geyser_a
#  - poi_oilpockets_geyser_b
#  - poi_oilpockets_geyser_c   

[TheMule]

20 hours ago, Mastermindx said:

No geyser at all guarantees a slow death because there is no conservation of matter. For example, dupe consume 100g/s oxygen. It's not converted to CO2, it's just gone. So, sooner or later, you will run out of oxygen.

Maybe (just *maybe*), it's possible to survive with rocket bringing more resources, but since rocket typically burn as much fuel mass than they can bring back cargo, I don't believe this to be realistic.

Might be an interesting challenge to reach the temporal tear before colony fails though.

"No conservation" works both ways. Wild plants for example produce matter out of nothing. Acorn trees being probably the major offenders and the easier to take advantage of on an industrial scale. From 150 wild trees you get enough lumber to run 5 petroleum generators with ethanol, including the 3,745g/s of pwater (in the current game, that's enough polluted oxygen for 37 dups, or oxigen for 33) and enough CO2 to sustain 80 slicksters (BBQ for about 50 dups). In the process you produce also polluted dirt which you can use for sage hatches (coal and BBQ) and/or pokeshells (lime).

That's actually better than 1 water geyser (about 3kg/s of water) and 3 oil reservoirs with a petroleum boiler. You more power (since you don't have to power the ethanol refiners), same pwater, same CO2, but not the polluted dirt.

There are other minor positive cycles. The 3 oil reservoirs don't need the water geyser and produce a net of 750g/s of pwater.

If you have a source of dirt, you can grow mealwood (domesticated), and thus glossy dreckos, then plastic -> sour gas -> nat gas -> energy + pwater + CO2.


Rockets can be also extremely water positive. Steam rockets for example keep emitting steam all the way up. If you build one at the bottom of the map, it produces a lot of high temperature steam at every launch and reentry. It's much more steam than the amount used as fuel.

Hydrogen rockets are also water positive, to a lesser extent, but they are extremely oxygen positive of course, every 1kg of water consumed - ideally - 666g of extra oxygen is produced. 
 

[TheMule]

20 hours ago, OxCD said:

1000g water gives 3330g oil and 33g NG using oil well.

Maybe @Mastermindx means no oil reservoirs too. No geysers of any kind, including reservoirs and fissures.

The point is moot anyway, as wild plants produce resources out of nothing.

Technically, dreckos in a hydrogen atmosphere do the same, especially glossy ones. Although it's nothing I've seen actually done, but I can imagine that a 2x48 stable with wild mealwood plants can sustain a number of tame glossy dreckos, enough to maintain a sizable population inside a starvation ranch in full hydrogen, even assuming the "full stomach" bug is fixed. Granted, you don't run a 10kg/s sour gas boiler with that. IIRC, a drecko produces about 50kg/cycle of plastic. You need 12 of them to achieve 1kg/s, give or take. Again IIRC, that's about 200g/s of polluted water.

Maybe one of those setups can maintain, idk, 30-40 starving drekos? I doubt it, but maybe it can reach 1kg/s of p water. Still, better than nothing. I'm not going to do the math but there's probably enough CO2 for 2 stables of slicksters, which is enough food for 10 dups. 

Regular dreckos can be fed with balm lily, that requires no resource even when domesticated. 

[ghkbrew]

3 hours ago, TheMule said:

From 150 wild trees you get enough lumber to run 5 petroleum generators with ethanol, including the 3,745g/s of pwater (in the current game, that's enough polluted oxygen for 37 dups, or oxigen for 33)

Don't forget all the pdirt from the ethanol distillers.  20 distillers will produce 6666.66 g/s of pdirt.  At steady state that gives enough oxygen for another 60 dupes if you use deodorizers.  Or you can liquidfy the pO2 to convert it 100% to clean O2.

(Yes I have a massive pdirt sublimation facility on one of my colonies, why do you ask?)

[TheMule]

1 minute ago, ghkbrew said:

(Yes I have a massive pdirt sublimation facility on one of my colonies, why do you ask?)

I ask because I tried and in order to get any decent output you need to split the pdirt in mini packets about 5 kg each... having them on rail works too but at quite a low sublimation rate. The plant you need to offgas enough pdirt for 60 dups is of the size of half the map.

[ghkbrew]

28 minutes ago, TheMule said:

I ask

I present the pre-DLC sublimation station:

pdirt is shipped in from the combined ethanol distillery/power generation/molten slickster farm from the rail along the bottom. Then distributed along a rail that snakes up the interior.

2 element sensor (1 for pdirt, 1 for slime) detect overflow on the rail and activate the chutes for 1 second.

It's currently running deodorizers to clean the oxygen, but you can see the heat exchanger for a incomplete cryo-purifier on the left.

 

This colony is my own version of a no geyser challenge.  I left the map generation alone and just avoided using any geysers (or oil reservoirs).  It's currently at cycle 684 and stable with 32 dupes (and about to set my cpu on fire). 

I can't find my original calculations for pdirt -> o2 capacity.  The idea is to distribute the the dirt into lots of small piles to increase subimation, but not have use half the map for space.  IIRC this won't produce enough O2 for 30 dupes until it maxes at 25tons per tile, but it should asymptotically approach that number.  I'm not sure of it's exact performance, because I'm also putting slime in there which off gasses much faster.  I've been making up the gap in O2 production with algae at first, and now the petro gen fuelled Rodriguez.

[TheMule]

29 minutes ago, ghkbrew said:

The idea is to distribute the the dirt into lots of small piles to increase subimation, but not have use half the map for space.  IIRC this won't produce enough O2 for 30 dupes until it maxes at 25tons per tile, but it should asymptotically approach that number.  I'm not sure of it's exact performance, because I'm also putting slime in there which off gasses much faster.

Well I did some math and some quick tests, probably more than a year ago.

I found using just pdirt sublimation for oxygen production wasn't really feasible, due to extremely poor rate.

But let's see.

Each 25t chunk produces:
rate = 0.2*sqrt(mass)

0.2 * sqrt(25000) = 31.6g/s.

Assuming 1:1 cleaning ratio (or letting dups breath pO2), for 30 dups you need 3000g/s. So it's 3000/31.6 = 95 chunks of 25t of dirt, or 2,375t.

That's a lot, not exactly easy to produce, and that's the minimum required to start producing at that rate.

You can do better by splitting those chunks. For example, with 20kg chunks, you get:

0.2 * sqrt(20) = 0.894g/s

You need: 3000/0.984 = 3,355 packets in rails, for a grand total of 67t. Now, 67t of dirt is more feasible, but... you've just built 3,355 segments of rails. If you use only half of the horizontal size of the map, that's an area 128 x 26. Ok, "the size of half the map" was an hyperbole on my part, but still, it's a huge investment.

It should be noted that possibly you need to place quite a few pumps in the area to keep pressure below 1800g everywhere, but of course this is the ONI forum I'm sure someone can think of a suitable bead pumps configuration to solve that.

Thanks for the build, BTW.

[ghkbrew]

3 hours ago, TheMule said:

I found using just pdirt sublimation for oxygen production wasn't really feasible, due to extremely poor rate.

Yeah, it's not really feasible, but it was fun trying . According to my calculations I would need ~31tons (25 + 6) in each of the 68 tiles in the machine to supply enough oxygen for my 32 dupes.  At my current rate of production that would take ~870 cycles to produce (assuming no use in the interim).  So an interesting "millennium" project but not really worthwhile.

What I did find though, is that it works great for slime off-gassing.  It turns out that each pile of slime off-gasses at a constant rate regardless of size.  When full of slime it was easily out pacing what the deodorizers could process.  You avoid the complications of an algae distiller + oxygen diffuser + sieve + electrolyser combo and get pretty much the same yield of oxygen per slime (~90%).  More if you go for cryo-purification.

3 hours ago, TheMule said:

It should be noted that possibly you need to place quite a few pumps in the area to keep pressure below 1800g everywhere, but of course this is the ONI forum I'm sure someone can think of a suitable bead pumps configuration to solve that.

Yeah I did some testing in sandbox before I started building.  The pump setup I have is able to keep up with 3kg/s of oxygen production.  The wide flow cross section keeps the gradient pretty shallow.

Efficient bead pumps with for this were surprising difficult to find.  The problem is that you can't let the bead flow over the pdirt, because the off-gassing will disrupt the beads and you lose pumping action for the lower sections.  The deoderizers turned out to be sufficient, so I gave up on the idea.

 

[cpy]

Can some moderator move **** to challenge category?

I'm playing no geyser challenge on aridia map with glaciers and frozen core for fun. I have plenty of time to figure out long term strategy. I also got some mods too like wooden tiles and stuff to make map pretty.

Modlist:

Biological Vats, Wooden Set: Furniture, Mineral Processing, Dupes Cuisine, Insulated Joint Plate, Insulated Door, Palmera Tree, Asphalt Tile, Fashionistic, Build Straight Up, Thermal Interface Plate, Wooden Set: Structures, Stairs, Fast Save Enhanced, Ranching Skill Increase, Blueprints, Butcher & Fishing Stations, Drag Tool Area, Pliers, Simpler Pip Plant Rule

[misotoma]

I guess ONI player base enjoys playing the first 800 cycles.. after that they start a new map

Have you guys seen though Rolands map? Where he pumps out so much CO2 into space.. that it kind of creates a whole CO2 biome since it can't dissipate quickly enough?

Quick bases are fun but true 2-3000 cycle builds are more fun lol