[Poll] On the Forgotten Knowledge Update, Postmortem

[Mike23Ua]

5 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:kills the essence of dont starve. Changes like batilisk wings or op characters like wendy or without downside like woodie are the wrong way imo

Only if your looking for a harder frustrating gameplay experience, which is something that should be dedicated to a harder difficulty mode, harder to reach locations, or specific requirements... and not something forced upon players The game is called Dont Starve TOGETHER but meanwhile people are wanting content that further separates Me from being able to play with my significantly less skilled friend.

You want Harder?? You want me to still be able to play with my friend and him not rage quit throwing his controller into his tv? 
THIS is how you do it- 

Personal Difficulty for example: Yes Wendy’s refresh is amazing and made her accessible to newer players as a Top pick.

But add the option to pick between normal, or Hardcore when joining a world and the following happens: Wendy now can no longer heal from eating food items or resting in a tent and must use actual dedicated healing tab items to heal, in Addition: Anytime Wendy returns Abigail int her flower (where she literally goes into an animation of ripping the flower apart to do so) your left with flower petals and A NEW Abigail flower has to be crafted to Summon Abigail again, not only that but When Wendy lost Abigail the first time.. it Tore her heart apart, so every time she has to part with Abigail it tears her heart a little more (damages actual health core each time Abigail dies)

Klei has been making video games for years, I am pretty darn certain that when or if the time ever comes for DST to get Harder content.. they will find a way to do that without forcing it upon people who struggle enough as is.

This is becoming highly Off-Topic.. and I do not wish to be issued another Warning from Mr JoeW for being off-topic so can you guys please quit discussing how easy & how hard the game is becoming and go back to discussing the contents of the Forgotten Knowledges/Hallowed Nights stuff?

(fingers crossed I get the update tomorrow but.. it’s probably gonna be later.)

[ArubaroBeefalo]

15 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Only if your looking for a harder frustrating gameplay experience, which is something that should be dedicated to a harder difficulty mode, harder to reach locations, or specific requirements... and not something forced upon players The game is called Dont Starve TOGETHER but meanwhile people are wanting content that further separates Me from being able to play with my significantly less skilled friend.

You want Harder?? You want me to still be able to play with my friend and him not rage quit throwing his controller into his tv? 
THIS is how you do it- 

Personal Difficulty for example: Yes Wendy’s refresh is amazing and made her accessible to newer players as a Top pick

i think this is on topic since we can talk about the new combat mechanics introduce in the game which is a healthy way of making enemies not more difficult neither easy but different

you said, dont STARVE, how i suppose to starve if a 1 hit mob gives me food every afternoon or how is wendy noob friendly when she totally denies hound waves making fighting hounds something that they will never learn how to deal. People get bored of hugging teeth traps because is boring and wendy doesnt help to learn how to fight them. Also i get more frustrated when i fail hard but wendy save my ass for free...

and for that i like this update. It brings new enemies that will not be so difficult for newbies and a new area that newbies can scout and where veterans can die when the war is started

i dont want the game to be harder (not since day 1, a long term difficulty will be lovely) but neither easier. I play with friends that are newbies so im not talk from the selfish side of someone who only wants the game be like he wants. I talk thinking in new players because of my friends and because when ds was released i die for everything and is what make me love the game and what make me play it so much since you cant beat the game in 100h without external help

[Mike23Ua]

Spoiler

I’m just saying that even this long term difficulty that people keep wanting would actually prevent my less skilled friends from joining my worlds, I find it funny to think that Klei didn’t want to separate their fanbase between who has and does not have DLC, but yet people (not you but other people) are giving them suggestions that makes that separation far worse then who has DLC and who doesn’t..

I would be okay with it if it was something optional, that you can turn off and not have impact your worlds.. some people just want to build a base and hang with friends in “No Sweat Mode” and we shouldn’t deny those people that right..

As much as I push ideas for significantly harder (or at least DS single player & its expansions levels of harder) content- I also have to keep in mind my not so skilled friends who die enough as is already.

Difficulty based comment in spoiler-

I can’t accurately judge the difficulties of the new update because it’s not out for me yet, but from what I’ve seen and watched I love the new mobs and biomes, I don’t think I will care too much for a “turf creator”.. but we will just have to see, We have an interior that has a ceiling with a chandelier now..

a CEILING in DONT STARVE TOGETHER.. yeah just uhh.. just think about that for a moment, It seems to me that Klei is pushing ideas and boundaries for DST that we would’ve never thought possible.. and I’m excited to see what they can come up with next!

[bruhmoment23]

1 hour ago, Mike23Ua said:

-snip-

There are plenty of ways to implement harder content while keeping the casual crowd out if it. The fact that this game is railing off the "survival" aspect to increase easier survival for casual players cannot be denied. I do most certainly hope, that when RoT comes to it's last stop, devs will decide to change some already existing mechanics around to give them more spice, fun and worth in order to liven the surroundings up. I'm not gonna be picky about how they might implement the difficulty spike, the only thing i'm personally worried about is that it won't be difficult at all, ending up in the dust. People are aware that this game is supposed to be based around cooperation, hence "Together" in the title, but despite that, it doesn't take too much to learn this game inside-out gimmick wise, either solo or with a person that's eager to learn. I personally DO enjoy most of the content that was given through out RoT so far, and though some people, mostly hardcore elitists of this game, complain that most of this content being poorly executed, not worth it or just plain out a waste of god damn time, it's still something. You may not like it, but some people actually do. Forgotten knowledge update was a really interesting addition in my opinion, both design and lore wise. The archive biome is tremendously well executed with magnificent ambience, music and variety of other noises, having it's own uniqueness. Gameplay wise, sure, it may seem like garbage since you can do like 2-3 things then leave, but only for people that see zero joy beyond just doing self deemed "hardest" **** all the time and robbing dry every area possible, spitting on every new given content saying "it's 2 ez give something harder". I'm not too crazy about seasonal events like Hallowed Nights so i'll leave that be. Dst CAN be difficult, it mostly is when you're inexperienced, but if you know every nook and cranny of this game you probably asked yourself "What now?".

Tl;dr - I'm not a die-hard gamer, but it wouldn't hurt to pump up the end-game difficulty on few features or revisit them completely/remake them. Difficulty is a tricky thing to settle for everyone, but i have enormous hopes for the future regarding it.

[GetNerfedOn]

personally, i think that the concept of the ancient archive is lacking.

There are literally tons of scrolls in every pillar and apparently the only knowledge that's worth being discovered isnt in them, instead being found within the fountains of knowledge. Sure, translations are going to be needed but a.) that is still a LOT of information and b.) the survivors, specially Maxwell, could translate said scrolls. I feel as if it'll only be a matter of time before they do.

Literally tons of information sources, which may contain valuable lore on the Ancients or even blueprints for endgame material being literally shelved into decorations. Not something I'd like, but then again, the decision isnt mine to make

[MilesUpshore]

49 minutes ago, GetNerfedOn said:

personally, i think that the concept of the ancient archive is lacking.

There are literally tons of scrolls in every pillar and apparently the only knowledge that's worth being discovered isnt in them, instead being found within the fountains of knowledge. Sure, translations are going to be needed but a.) that is still a LOT of information and b.) the survivors, specially Maxwell, could translate said scrolls. I feel as if it'll only be a matter of time before they do.

Literally tons of information sources, which may contain valuable lore on the Ancients or even blueprints for endgame material being literally shelved into decorations. Not something I'd like, but then again, the decision isnt mine to make

So far, I see the ancient archive as more of a new place for future lore updates, which may be why it feels empty so far. There's plenty of structures that could provide some more information, but from the survivors' quotes, it looks like a work in progress from the devs for now. Hopefully the devs can update the archive with additional info and more things to do in the future, cos other than the puzzles and new stuff, it's pretty empty and there isn't much I can do there.

[user1464576869]

It's something to do. If you have nothing else to do. The glowing ball will be the ultimate worth of the biome.
 
 
This is a tangent but. I can't comprehend any time people say "there is so much lore". The bar for what counts as lore is damn low. It surprised me when it was brought up at all from Woodie's update. Was Wigfrid's update really any different? Even Willow? Comments going all "so yam-packed with lore." She was just flailing around mouth wide open. Cementing ideas we were fully aware of. Are we getting story or a leisure brochure of the Don't Starve mythos?
 
Actually that is the distinction isn't it. Lore is fodder to paint the walls. Story is what I'm craving. Lore is what clothes, language and time Romeo and Juliet are presented in. Story is the timeless moral dilemmas, the choices that shape their fate and their personalities interacting with each other.
 
It's like each character now has been turned into something so rudimentary in order to impatiently rush aside the human and give the whole ancients thing all the attention. Yet the ancients is a limelight forever in the horizon of the story because it is only allowed to trickle down along with the slow updates.
 
Lore is easy. Anyone can think up civilizations, brutalize their fate, and have some fantastical vague magic in it. We've heard that story a thousand times. What's difficult is personal investment. Character motivation. But we're seeing all these character's be scrubbed clean, to serve as pawns, butlers, tools to lazily take the story into the next chapter. They strictly serve the plot, not the plot serving to highlight their relationships, morals and struggles. I have no sympathy or love for any of these glorified dress up dolls any longer. There is no story.

[Well-met]

I was waiting for the crab king's altar to do something and now I'm once again waiting for the energy to do something.

Was this pattern the same in early DS/T where everybody waits for stuff to do something? I wasn't playing at the time before RoG.

[viberr]

13 minutes ago, Cosheeta said:

 
It's like each character now has been turned into something so rudimentary in order to impatiently rush aside the human and give the whole ancients thing all the attention. Yet the ancients is a limelight forever in the horizon of the story because it is only allowed to trickle down along with the slow updates.
 
 

um this might be a bit off topic but...slow updates?really?i personally think that the updates come out in a pretty timely manner 

also covid did slow down klei and their updates so thats a reason 

personally i read the entire reply and from what i understand i disagree. klei do care for their characters and their storys mainly from their rework shorts yeah but there are parts where the characters show emotion (like the part where winona saw charlie in the new short)

but to say dont starve has no story is a no from me because while the story might be simple (its just people trying to escape a unfamiliar world)i personally like it 

[GetNerfedOn]

14 minutes ago, stranger again said:

slow updates?

A case in point would be last year's Roadmap. Most of the roadmap target dates were not successfully met

[viberr]

6 minutes ago, GetNerfedOn said:

A case in point would be last year's Roadmap. Most of the roadmap target dates were not successfully met

most as in 50%?75%?when the target dates werent met how long did it take for the updates to come out?a couple of months?days?weeks?

but still a update a month is pretty good in my opinion 

(sorry for asking a lot of questions im just curious)

[user1464576869]

1 minute ago, stranger again said:

i personally think that the updates come out in a pretty timely manner

Ah, well as in; just for story that is; relative to how much comes in each update. The updates themselves aren't too bad.
 
Mm.. Though, I find even the playability of them is a bit on the dry side. So.. Timing is neat in terms of where on the calendar we're putting our pins I think, uh, the amount of content is something left to desire.. I mean how many years have we been circling around "so there were the ancients", and now for.. is it another year? we've been taking one step into "and also the moon ancients".
 
Honestly, look, I kinda want to dwell on a thing here since I feel I simplified it, the ancients themselves isn't necessarily easy as I put it. I believe entire kingdoms and cultures have hold traits much like individuals themselves, that's what a culture is; a personality on large scale. But their motives needs to be apparent, otherwise it isn't a clash of great moral questions, it's anonymous tribalism and superficiality. Anonymity works alright as a setting to explore the individuals conversations in an environment where larger context isn't the goal, but yeah I argue the war is taking too much priority and so we are left with a hollow conversation. No story.
 
The point is, war is a conversation, many timeless stories is conflict and any conflict is varying levels of war. The conversation we are hearing from the DST mythos of ancients are... about what. Why should we care. The conversation is unravelling itself slow, has been going on for years and we don't even know what it's about. And the conversation we used to listen to, the relationship between every character and their purpose towards the constant, has been glanced over to make way for this war. And become stagnant by putting a period on them.
 
But why say that, what does that mean. Uh, boy can I write like essays about this but so for example. The latest cinematic shows Winona cares for Charlie. Yeah it is conversation, but is it new argument or are we hearing the conversation repeat? So to say.
 
I think the most amount of rebuttal we ever got was from Wendy's update maybe? But to me it feels rather like it was a cinematic that diffused the conversation. It cemented arguments and put a fullstop there. There were so many questions that all faded with "No no no, they love each other, just an accident and they both wanted her back so they just went ahead and did that."

[beanboy12]

this update good because funny mackswell and double yew ecks sefenty eit skins. but all around this update was the coolest, right behind the full a new reign update, because of bq, toadstool, and the fuelweaver

[Mike23Ua]

Klei can take all the time in the world that they need to push out content updates, How did you guys stray off-topic of the contents of what Forgotten Knowledges is, to how slowly the story is progressing?

Its a VIDEO GAME, Most video games DON’T have much of a story or reason, you play it for fun factor.. and when you lose that, you stop playing.. the end, period. 

These guys have been busting their butts to deliver us with new content to DST, and if you go back to pre-Character Refreshes, Pre-Return of Them Updates, Pre- New Characters & Quality of Life Updates, then what you have left is a game that didn’t change much from DS Single Player.

So what? Does the Compendium page NOT count as lore or story to you?? To know characters EXACT Birthdays, to know their favorite foods (which actually also serve gameplay purposes) to know new things like Wendy trying to use Ouji boards to communicate with Abigail only to fail in frustration? Is none of this Lore or Story?

Charlie Cracking the moon and starting some light and dark turf war.. that’s not lore? That’s not progressed story?

Better yet- Was there any BETTER Lore or Story to Single player Dont Starve? Or did that really in the end just also boil down to picking a character finding a hidden door and traveling through 5 randomly generated worlds to beat the game?

To rest my case FIRMLY when you Unlock Webber for the first time you have to find a thing, and place it into a dug open grave hole and then the grave gets struck by lightning and Webber is unlocked, to Unlock Wes you have to make your way to adventures chapter 3 and then luck up on finding him trapped inside an invisible maze by clockworks, and What story do you get here? NOTHING

You will get a vague hint (if playing as Maxwell) that “His performance displeased me” but outside of that you got no clue how or why and the game made no further efforts in telling you either.

I honestly don’t know what the heck you guys are expecting.. But I can tell you one thing, to say that Return of them as a whole has added no new lore or story progression to the game is a direct insult to over a years worth of updates that Klei has been providing to you (and for free I might add) in the middle of a global wide Covid-19 pandemic nonetheless.

to watch Maxwell pull Winona away from her sister Charlie.. that right there alone should signify a strong turning point in the games story- you have the guy who was cruel and mostly heartless, conceded and selfishly only caring about himself and being able to bend this world to his will, now trying to WARN Winona that “Hey that Thing is not your Sister anymore, get away before it rips your face off..”

LORE and STORY that the FORGOTTEN KNOWLEDGE updates animated short provides directly right there in front of your face.

Now can you all PLEASE get back on-Topic thanks. <3

[viberr]

3 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

 

Now can you all PLEASE get back on-Topic thanks. <3

i for one am a console player and dont have forgotten knowledge yet but i have seen a bit and and would say that it looks really good 

ill give my opinion when forgotten knowledge comes to consoles 

[GetNerfedOn]

1 hour ago, stranger again said:

most as in 50%?75%?when the target dates werent met how long did it take for the updates to come out?a couple of months?days?weeks?

but still a update a month is pretty good in my opinion 

(sorry for asking a lot of questions im just curious)

For instance:

 - they promised that they would have refreshed characters every month, starting with Winona at March, which was successfully delivered. However, the next refresh, Willow, came out a month late at May, Wormwood and Warly came out on time the succeeding June and July, respectively, but then Woodie came late on September, and with no succeeding refreshes after him (until Wendy on March 2020 anyways).

 - they promised to release new characters every two months, starting with Wortox in May. If Wormwood and Warly are to be counted as new characters, that'll make their updates early on June and July, but they're debatably refreshes of existing characters, which leaves Wurt rather late on her October arrival, and with no succeeding characters after her (until Walter came June 2020).

 - they promised the Return of Them to drop mid-April, but it arrived May 16th.

that's what I can make of things, do feel free to correct. Also, I mean no offense to any party involved, the information I provide is for elucidative purposes only.

[user1464576869]

27 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

So what? Does the Compendium page NOT count as lore or story to you?

Nnnno I feel like that's conflating detail with story. That's a JK Rowling move, of posting on twitter how wizards poop'd pants.
 
Detail is just the superficial, the clothes, language and time as I put it in my analogy with how Romeo and Juliet can be presented as a story. If it doesn't play a part in the conversation then it isn't story? Does it matter what colour of Romeo's shirt is? Does it matter that Wendy struggled with various boardgames? Not.. quite. If it had something actually substantial written in it then sure, but, like how I said about repeating dialogue, it doesn't seem to add anything new to a conversation.
 
As for the story prior to DST. Well it didn't close down the doors for wildly interesting that's for sure. It was certainly dubious where the characters motives laid, yet their dialogue towards the world as it was made it excitedly easy to imagine a past of intricate horrors. Wes' mystery was as I have put it before the most ingenious dialogue the story spoke to us in all of Don't Starve. Not only is he of a comical stature but he was at the time the most innocent out of all characters, yet he was the most punished by Maxwell out of anyone, maybe only for his aforementioned stature. The mystery behind his silence, his sin towards Maxwell and his unassuming stature is a joke that works on so many levels. This intricate kind of storytelling, is absent.
 
Arguably we are on topic. One of the fill ins for the poll is to find the lore satisfactory.

[GetNerfedOn]

Just now, Cosheeta said:

 Arguably we are on topic. One of the fill ins for the poll is to find the lore satisfactory.

Agreed, wholeheartedly. Lore is part of the update, and of Don't Starve Together's entertainment value as a whole. 

[1bubbainpa]

I think that people are right to be critical of the new content, especially when comparing RoT to A New Reign. While most of the new content from Reign could be encountered in regular gameplay, RoT requires the player to actively go out and seek the new content, whether it be on the sea or in the deep caverns.

[Well-met]

2 minutes ago, 1bubbainpa said:

I think that people are right to be critical of the new content, especially when comparing RoT to A New Reign. While most of the new content from Reign could be encountered in regular gameplay, RoT requires the player to actively go out and seek the new content, whether it be on the sea or in the deep caverns.

plus FK is completely out of bounds for players who can't host caves.

[viberr]

18 minutes ago, Well-met said:

plus FK is completely out of bounds for players who can't host caves.

so is fuelweaver, ancient guardian and toadstool 

i feel bad for people who cant host caves because they dont get to experience the fun that is fuelweaver (some people dont like fuelweaver but i do )

[Mike23Ua]

Well.. I found the Ancient Library, and as you can see in the spoiler I’m nearly dead in the process of getting there.. lol, the New content is hard.. and I absolutely LOVE It!

I love how Klei is actually listening to Fan Feedback/Complaints though!! 

Spoiler

I wanted hostile threats that attack the player when they chop a tree, and they give me some explosive tree spores, haha, nice..  good game Klei, also maybe I picked a very very bad character choice to explore the new biomes with? There is less Meat and more Vegetable down here!