Pop Guy Posted October 1, 2020 Share Posted October 1, 2020 In her short we see only a gramophone; but both Wilson, Winona and Wagstaff had needed to build a gate to enter in the Constant. Why was Wigfrid kidnapped without a single Voxola? Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/122171-how-did-wigfrid-enter-the-constant-without-a-radio-or-a-gate/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
YouKnowWho Posted October 1, 2020 Share Posted October 1, 2020 Probably the same way Warly got in, yeah? I don't think he made a gateway either. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/122171-how-did-wigfrid-enter-the-constant-without-a-radio-or-a-gate/#findComment-1376445 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pop Guy Posted October 1, 2020 Author Share Posted October 1, 2020 Just now, YouKnowWho said: Probably the same way Warly got in, yeah? I don't think he made a gateway either. Warly we don't see exactly when he is kidnapped; there was room for imagination. But Wigfrid is totally explicit (and inexplicable). I'm confused, I thought a gate was needed; Wagstaff and Wilson are obviously fools :'D Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/122171-how-did-wigfrid-enter-the-constant-without-a-radio-or-a-gate/#findComment-1376446 Share on other sites More sharing options...
sinisterrkid Posted October 1, 2020 Share Posted October 1, 2020 My pet theroy is that Wilson's radio started making the rounds after he disappeared into the Constant. Just imagine: Wilson gets pulled into the Constant. House remains empty. Someone realizes the house has been empty for too long, checks inside. Oh, sweet radio! Sounds like forgetting to buy a gift for my husband's birthday party tonight wasn't such a huge problem after all! Rinse. Repeat. PS: We see a radio on Walter's short, so it would need to have made it all the way to Canada. OR: Wilson was not the only person to have been instructed by Maxwell to build a radio, or any other apparatus. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/122171-how-did-wigfrid-enter-the-constant-without-a-radio-or-a-gate/#findComment-1376448 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pop Guy Posted October 1, 2020 Author Share Posted October 1, 2020 7 minutes ago, sinisterrkid said: My pet theroy is that Wilson's radio started making the rounds after he disappeared into the Constant. Just imagine: Wilson gets pulled into the Constant. House remains empty. Someone realizes the house has been empty for too long, checks inside. Oh, sweet radio! Sounds like forgetting to buy a gift for my husband's birthday party tonight wasn't such a huge problem after all! Rinse. Repeat. PS: We see a radio on Walter's short, so it would need to have made it all the way to Canada. OR: Wilson was not the only person to have been instructed by Maxwell to build a radio, or any other apparatus. I like the theory; but the problem remains: do you need a portal to enter? Several shorts seem to suggest yes: Wilson's short, Winona's short; but also the short about the Forge and the Gorgie show that a gate is always necessary. The radio alone is used only by Maxwell to communicate but, in theory, it is not enough to physically travel people. Even in adventure mode you need a gate machine to travel; the radio is just the tool to find the pieces. So the disappearance of Wigfrid is completely illogical with what has been shown in recent years and in the game. (And Wigfrid doesn't even seem to own a radio!) Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/122171-how-did-wigfrid-enter-the-constant-without-a-radio-or-a-gate/#findComment-1376449 Share on other sites More sharing options...
sinisterrkid Posted October 1, 2020 Share Posted October 1, 2020 5 minutes ago, Pop Guy said: I like the theory; but the problem remains: do you need a portal to enter? Several shorts seem to suggest yes: Wilson's short, Winona's short; but also the short about the Forge and the Gorgie show that a gate is always necessary. The radio alone is used only by Maxwell to communicate but, in theory, it is not enough to physically travel people. Even in adventure mode you need a gate machine to travel; the radio is just the tool to find the pieces. So the disappearance of Wigfrid is completely illogical with what has been shown in recent years and in the game. Indeed... I had some memories confused and mixed up in my head. Wilson didn't even build the radio, he just built the portal. I was also making an addition to my post to say Wilson was not the first survivor to enter the Constant. Wigfrid herself came before. I guess we just have to accept that there are at least two ways to enter. My head cannon is still that the radio we see in Walter's short (in Woodie's house) is the same we see in Wilson's house, though. Whoever had it first. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/122171-how-did-wigfrid-enter-the-constant-without-a-radio-or-a-gate/#findComment-1376451 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BezKa Posted October 1, 2020 Share Posted October 1, 2020 She obviously enters later. By reading some of the clues in other animations, openings between the constant and real world has been more frequent- consider shadow creatures just randomly entering the world and harassing orphaned children. My bet is that there is some kind of bridge woven between the worlds by the portals Wilson and Wagstaff made, so with the sort of power Maxwell had, he could get Wigfrid in by just appearing as a phantom in her room. That's why Walter is in constant by an accident- the border is getting unstable so just switching a radio that has probably been involved with kidnapping other person he got sucked in. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/122171-how-did-wigfrid-enter-the-constant-without-a-radio-or-a-gate/#findComment-1376452 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pop Guy Posted October 1, 2020 Author Share Posted October 1, 2020 2 minutes ago, sinisterrkid said: Indeed... I had some memories confused and mixed up in my head. Wilson didn't even build the radio, he just built the portal. I was also making an addition to my post to say Wilson was not the first survivor to enter the Constant. Wigfrid herself came before. I guess we just have to accept that there are at least two ways to enter. My head cannon is still that the radio we see in Walter's short (in Woodie's house) is the same we see in Wilson's house, though. Whoever had it first. If Wilson was one of the last to enter the constant (or the very last) then the Radio was first in Canada, then it came to New England, where Wilson lived. But I think there were many radios around; the Voxola's factory had produced some before it caught fire and collapsed. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/122171-how-did-wigfrid-enter-the-constant-without-a-radio-or-a-gate/#findComment-1376453 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheggf Posted October 1, 2020 Share Posted October 1, 2020 Something to keep in mind is that the shorts aren't necessarily strict representations of what literally happened. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/122171-how-did-wigfrid-enter-the-constant-without-a-radio-or-a-gate/#findComment-1376454 Share on other sites More sharing options...
mac and cheese Posted October 1, 2020 Share Posted October 1, 2020 I thought it was probably her phonograph? Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/122171-how-did-wigfrid-enter-the-constant-without-a-radio-or-a-gate/#findComment-1376455 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pop Guy Posted October 1, 2020 Author Share Posted October 1, 2020 2 minutes ago, Cheggf said: Something to keep in mind is that the shorts aren't necessarily strict representations of what literally happened. If we cannot rely on what Klei shows us, then we cannot rely on anything. The assumption of correctness is necessary for any theory, otherwise everything becomes inconvenient and useless. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/122171-how-did-wigfrid-enter-the-constant-without-a-radio-or-a-gate/#findComment-1376457 Share on other sites More sharing options...
sinisterrkid Posted October 2, 2020 Share Posted October 2, 2020 Hey I just thought of something. Well, first that Maxwell himself entered the Constant when the shadows pulled him in through the book. And also that shadows seem to be somewhat able to move through the worlds. Not necessarily only through the Codex Umbra, since a Terrorbeak shows up in Willow's orphanage. So to the point: * Maybe shadows can pull you through; * Maxwell learned to split his mind into shadow versions of himself; * Maybe shadows can at occasion travel worlds; * What we see is a shadow Maxwell in Wigfrid's short. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/122171-how-did-wigfrid-enter-the-constant-without-a-radio-or-a-gate/#findComment-1376458 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pop Guy Posted October 2, 2020 Author Share Posted October 2, 2020 5 minutes ago, mac and cheese said: I thought it was probably her phonograph? If so, I would find the explanation disappointing. But they are also personal opinions. 3 minutes ago, sinisterrkid said: Hey I just thought of something. Well, first that Maxwell himself entered the Constant when the shadows pulled him in through the book. And also that shadows seem to be somewhat able to move through the worlds. Not necessarily only through the Codex Umbra, since a Terrorbeak shows up in Willow's orphanage. So to the point: * Maybe shadows can pull you through; * Maxwell learned to split his mind into shadow versions of himself; * Maybe shadows can at occasion travel worlds; * What we see is a shadow Maxwell in Wigfrid's short. The problem is that the nature of the Shadows has never been clear. From the William Charter Puzzles it seemed that Maxwell "evoked" them from Codex Umbra, but from the Willow short the Shadows seemed to run around in our world before, and regardless of the code... I don't really know what to think, the DS lore is a disaster Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/122171-how-did-wigfrid-enter-the-constant-without-a-radio-or-a-gate/#findComment-1376459 Share on other sites More sharing options...
mac and cheese Posted October 2, 2020 Share Posted October 2, 2020 2 minutes ago, Pop Guy said: If so, I would find the explanation disappointing. But they are also personal opinions. Well, it's not that different than Maxwell's connections to the radio. Maybe the phonographs were manufactured by Voxola as well? Warly has one too: Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/122171-how-did-wigfrid-enter-the-constant-without-a-radio-or-a-gate/#findComment-1376460 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheggf Posted October 2, 2020 Share Posted October 2, 2020 5 minutes ago, Pop Guy said: If we cannot rely on what Klei shows us, then we cannot rely on anything. The assumption of correctness is necessary for any theory, otherwise everything becomes inconvenient and useless. You can rely on what Klei shows you, you just can't take everything 100% literally. Are you to believe that during her fight with the newspaper she actually transformed into a fierce warrior, and the newspaper actually became a dangerous serpent? The passage of time from when Maxwell offered her to be a star again and when the newspaper reports on her disappearance is clearly great, as shown by the large pile of newspapers in front of her door. Who's to say he didn't lead her to a portal, or otherwise instruct her on how to enter? Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/122171-how-did-wigfrid-enter-the-constant-without-a-radio-or-a-gate/#findComment-1376461 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pop Guy Posted October 2, 2020 Author Share Posted October 2, 2020 Just now, mac and cheese said: Well, it's not that different than Maxwell's connections to the radio. Maybe the phonographs were manufactured by Voxola as well? Warly has one too: Yes, but in Walry's short, de facto, we don't see how Walry is kidnapped. Anything could have happened; literally. He may have simply received a message that led him to explore the ruins of the Voxola's factory and exhume the Wagstaff portal, for example. In short, it could be made consistent with a little imagination. 1 minute ago, Cheggf said: You can rely on what Klei shows you, you just can't take everything 100% literally. Are you to believe that during her fight with the newspaper she actually transformed into a fierce warrior, and the newspaper actually became a dangerous serpent? The passage of time from when Maxwell offered her to be a star again and when the newspaper reports on her disappearance is clearly great, as shown by the large pile of newspapers in front of her door. Who's to say he didn't lead her to a portal, or otherwise instruct her on how to enter? Klei used various graphic devices to make us understand that the snake was Wigfrid's fantasy: the change of style, the different colors, the extremely "dreamlike" and "fantastic" atmosphere; but when Wigfrid is kidnapped, nothing suggests that what we see is not real. In fact, it just seems to be exactly what happened. But they are also opinions, I realize that. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/122171-how-did-wigfrid-enter-the-constant-without-a-radio-or-a-gate/#findComment-1376462 Share on other sites More sharing options...
sinisterrkid Posted October 2, 2020 Share Posted October 2, 2020 14 minutes ago, sinisterrkid said: Hey I just thought of something. Well, first that Maxwell himself entered the Constant when the shadows pulled him in through the book. And also that shadows seem to be somewhat able to move through the worlds. Not necessarily only through the Codex Umbra, since a Terrorbeak shows up in Willow's orphanage. So to the point: * Maybe shadows can pull you through; * Maxwell learned to split his mind into shadow versions of himself; * Maybe shadows can at occasion travel worlds; * What we see is a shadow Maxwell in Wigfrid's short. This would still require an explanation of why then Maxwell bothered making Wilson build a portal just to capture him. I would suggest the portal was an attempt at making something that goes both ways: Earth in, Constant out. But that it proabably failed at achieving that. 16 minutes ago, mac and cheese said: I thought it was probably her phonograph? I really like the phonograph connection. In single player Adventure mode Maxwell has a phonograph playing in front of the throne. (-Spoiler image of single player ending below: ) Spoiler My current, updated, head cannon is that Maxwell instructed/tricked Wagstaff to juice up some Voxola phonographs and radios so that shadows could occasionally travel through them, and shadows in turn can pull ya in. Also that for whatever reason a bridge between the worlds must be made of similar objects existing in both sides. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/122171-how-did-wigfrid-enter-the-constant-without-a-radio-or-a-gate/#findComment-1376463 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pop Guy Posted October 2, 2020 Author Share Posted October 2, 2020 Just now, sinisterrkid said: This would still require an explanation of why then Maxwell bothered making Wilson build a portal just to capture him. I would suggest the portal was an attempt at making something that goes both ways: Earth in, Constant out. But that it proabably failed at achieving that. I'm still looking for a logical reason for Maxwell's kidnappings ... his actions seem increasingly obscure and inscrutable, devoid of any reasoning. If he needed someone to save him, why not just ask for help? Why even kidnap children like Wendy and Webber? Why try to hinder them in adventure mode instead of helping them? Madness, mystery. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/122171-how-did-wigfrid-enter-the-constant-without-a-radio-or-a-gate/#findComment-1376464 Share on other sites More sharing options...
sinisterrkid Posted October 2, 2020 Share Posted October 2, 2020 2 minutes ago, Pop Guy said: I'm still looking for a logical reason for Maxwell's kidnappings ... his actions seem increasingly obscure and inscrutable, devoid of any reasoning. If he needed someone to save him, why not just ask for help? Why even kidnap children like Wendy and Webber? Why try to hinder them in adventure mode instead of helping them? Madness, mystery. Even more obscure when we remember he kidnapped freaking Wilbur. Poor, sweet, Wilbur. Also all those boon skeletons scattered around the world, which are failed survivors. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/122171-how-did-wigfrid-enter-the-constant-without-a-radio-or-a-gate/#findComment-1376465 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pop Guy Posted October 2, 2020 Author Share Posted October 2, 2020 3 minutes ago, sinisterrkid said: Even more obscure when we remember he kidnapped freaking Wilbur. Poor, sweet, Wilbur. Also all those boon skeletons scattered around the world, which are failed survivors. Also! How come you kidnap a monkey ?! absurd :'D However, I have always thought that the skeletons we find around are other "kidnappings" of people who later died. Maxwell may have kidnapped hundreds of people, as far as we know. We obviously only play with the only "survivors". It has always fascinated me as a theory. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/122171-how-did-wigfrid-enter-the-constant-without-a-radio-or-a-gate/#findComment-1376466 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Primalflower Posted October 2, 2020 Share Posted October 2, 2020 21 minutes ago, Pop Guy said: If so, I would find the explanation disappointing. But they are also personal opinions. (referring to the possibility of wigfrid going through gramophone as a "portal" to constant please imagine wigfrid being sucked into the gramophone and then peacefully accept that it would be hilarious and epic Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/122171-how-did-wigfrid-enter-the-constant-without-a-radio-or-a-gate/#findComment-1376467 Share on other sites More sharing options...
sinisterrkid Posted October 2, 2020 Share Posted October 2, 2020 35 minutes ago, Pop Guy said: but from the Willow short the Shadows seemed to run around in our world before Willow's childhood didn't necessarily happen before Maxwell's magic shows. Just from what I remember, the survivor's kidnappings happened at the narrowest window between 1906 (San Francisco earthquake) and 1920. From some Klei archive (I took it from Wilson's wiki page): " "Wilson is in his early 30's. We never really established where Wilson is living or from but the "Gentleman Scientist" theme does kind of come from a "Proper English Gent" kind of personality. The story is 1920-ish. Willow is roughly in her early 20's." Posted on June 17, 2014." So Willow might have been a kid in 1907 or whatever, even after Wigfrid was taken, but only kidnapped more than 10 years later. Also from that quote we know DS lore is kinda make it as you go kind of thing. I don't take it tooo seriously, but love imagining what story would make sense with what has been estabilished so far, and as it builds up. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/122171-how-did-wigfrid-enter-the-constant-without-a-radio-or-a-gate/#findComment-1376469 Share on other sites More sharing options...
mac and cheese Posted October 2, 2020 Share Posted October 2, 2020 18 minutes ago, Pop Guy said: I'm still looking for a logical reason for Maxwell's kidnappings ... his actions seem increasingly obscure and inscrutable, devoid of any reasoning. If he needed someone to save him, why not just ask for help? Why even kidnap children like Wendy and Webber? Why try to hinder them in adventure mode instead of helping them? Madness, mystery. Maybe something to do with Their influence? Hard to tell right now. 21 minutes ago, sinisterrkid said: I really like the phonograph connection. In single player Adventure mode Maxwell has a phonograph playing in front of the throne. (-Spoiler image of single player ending below: ) Reveal hidden contents My current, updated, head cannon is that Maxwell instructed/tricked Wagstaff to juice up some Voxola phonographs and radios so that shadows could occasionally travel through them, and shadows in turn can pull ya in. I googled Wagstaff's quote and he says the phonograph model is the ML-77, and he "knows it well." Seeing how this matches the naming pattern of WX-78 and the PR-76 (the divining rod), this probably means he built it and not just that he owned one. And knowing how Wagstaff's later works went, I wouldn't be surprised if this is how most characters were captured before 1919. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/122171-how-did-wigfrid-enter-the-constant-without-a-radio-or-a-gate/#findComment-1376472 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike23Ua Posted October 2, 2020 Share Posted October 2, 2020 Science, Mystery & Magic! Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/122171-how-did-wigfrid-enter-the-constant-without-a-radio-or-a-gate/#findComment-1376473 Share on other sites More sharing options...
minespatch Posted October 2, 2020 Share Posted October 2, 2020 So... Does this mean that THEM uses music receptacles in general for communication? Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/122171-how-did-wigfrid-enter-the-constant-without-a-radio-or-a-gate/#findComment-1376480 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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