Power transformer

[Smife]

Is there a reason why there's no transformer with 2kw output? We have one for basic wires, but who uses those past early game. I'm not a new player yet it still frustrates me more than it should. It's a player unfriendly mechanic that creates an unnecessary challenge. Can devs please explain the point of that? 

[OxCD]

The 4kW transformer can handle 2kW wire.

I agree this wattage difference sounds weird, but it does the job, as much as if large transformers were limited to 2kW.

It has been pointed out as soon as it appears, but never explained by devs. I think at this point you must just... admit it. 

At least this strange choice isn't affecting the gameplay... !

[Zarquan]

1 hour ago, Smife said:

Is there a reason why there's no transformer with 2kw output? We have one for basic wires, but who uses those past early game. I'm not a new player yet it still frustrates me more than it should. It's a player unfriendly mechanic that creates an unnecessary challenge. Can devs please explain the point of that? 

I believe the reason is legacy.  When they created the transformer, it operated as a 1 kJ battery that was refilled on every tick.  In those days, there was only one transformer.  At the time, a tick was 1/4th of a second, so the power transformer could deliver 4 kW of power, but could not power machinery that took more than 1 kW (e.g. an aquatuner).  When they updated it and added the small transformer, they kept it at 4 kW. 

My memory is a bit foggy, but I think after they made that change, they increased the tick speed to once every 1/5th of a second, so now a tick is 0.2 seconds.

I think that reasoning is silly and it should either be 2 kW or, even better, be adjustable so we can choose how much power it draws.  For example, some builds have aquatuners, but they only need to be running for a very short time at any given time.  If my aquatuner is only running 1/10th of the time, it only really needs a consistent 120 W.  However, as it, you had better put it on its own conductive wire and not attach it to another grid.  If I could just give it a consistent 150 W through a transformer, then I could have it branch off another conductive wire. 

And yes, I know we can use a battery capacitor to power an aquatuner, but I would prefer to avoid that.  I think that charging batteries should be included in overloading.

 

[Smife]

Yeah I can use the large one. But again, 4 kW, for what? I guess it would've made sense if you could connect 2 1 kW wires going out of 2 small transformers to a 2 kW grid, but that's not how it works. It  just feels wonky that's all. At least people agree, cause for a moment I thought I was missing something. Thx for the replies.

[wachunga]

The big transformer should have 2 outputs of 2 kW each or conductive wire should handle 4 kW. The current (haha) situation is just dumb.

[Smife]

6 hours ago, wachunga said:

The big transformer should have 2 outputs of 2 kW each or conductive wire should handle 4 kW. The current (haha) situation is just dumb.

Why not add an actual 4 kW wire, cause there's not really much to choose from, other than the two ugly ones. I mean, we have a ridiculous 50 kW option, which is kinda unnecessary imo.

[OxCD]

2 hours ago, Smife said:

we have a ridiculous 50 kW option, which is kinda unnecessary imo.

Hem. Definitely no.

50W wire is just very useful for the late game. My last save had regular 38/40kW consumption, with peaks at 48/49kW. A lot easier to deal with because of this wire.

Before, it was only 20kW, so to go further we had to split our power system on different grids, or to create an alternator to balance our generators on the different grids.

2 hours ago, Smife said:

Why not add an actual 4 kW wire, cause there's not really much to choose from, other than the two ugly ones. 

That's ONI. They are not giving us the tool, they are giving us the stuff that we use to create the tool. Adding a 4kW wire will change a lot the gameplay around power management. It will simplify a lot, which is apparently not wanted by Klei (thanks).

As mentionned above, simpliest thing would be to swap large transformer to 2kW instead of 4kW. That would help some minds to sleep better, and change nothing into the gameplay.

By the way, they could just change the in-game text from 4kW to 2kW without touching the code of the transformer, and you'll never notice those are still at 4kW, because we cannot use this capacity anyway...

[TheMule]

48 minutes ago, OxCD said:

By the way, they could just change the in-game text from 4kW to 2kW without touching the code of the transformer, and you'll never noticed those are still at 4kW, because we cannot use this capacity anyway...

I'm not sure about that, we do (unintentionally) use it when we burn our 2kW wires...

This is beating a dead horse, but to me it's either a 2kW transformer to match 2kW wires, or a 20kW one. In other words, it's either a "conductive" transformer or a "heavy-watt" transformer, to match the modifiers we have on wires.

This, or just remove the 1kW one. Let's just have one type of transformer, the 4kW one. Or even better, a diode, removing 'transformers' entirely, since we don't have voltage in the first place.

The internal battery serves barely any purpose and could be removed. The only thing that matters is the direction of the flow. So let it be a diode, w/o any limitation (connect it to 1kW - 50kW wires). If you want to make two of them, make them overheat instead of limiting the current.

[Dooplicant]

Although I have never actually applied it. Theoretically, if you needed to step your 50K wire down to 20K you could use 5 large transformers instead of 20 regular transformers?

Maybe in extreme temperature, rare material situations? I don't know, I rarely use 20K.

[TheOneFinn]

1 hour ago, TheMule said:

I'm not sure about that, we do (unintentionally) use it when we burn our 2kW wires...

Isn't that the point?

The matched 1kw power means that you can never overload the wire, you get grey outs/machines not running but dont get wires burning out.

I always assumed this was a deliberate gameplay mechanic, 1kw is the easy one, machines may not turn on but you wont have repair jobs generated, 2kw gives you a bit more juice but now you have to manage the maximum yourself or things start breaking, and then the heavy versions add the whole, cant go through walls/need to be hidden to counter the massive decor cost stuff.

[Gurgel]

13 minutes ago, TheOneFinn said:

I always assumed this was a deliberate gameplay mechanic, 1kw is the easy one, machines may not turn on but you wont have repair jobs generated, 2kw gives you a bit more juice but now you have to manage the maximum yourself or things start breaking, and then the heavy versions add the whole, cant go through walls/need to be hidden to counter the massive decor cost stuff.

Makes sense to me.

[TripleM999]

One can always use 2x 1kw-transformers to drive the conductive wire, if afraid of burnouts. I find it a nice touch, that not everything is delivered on a silver plate.

[TheMule]

3 minutes ago, TheOneFinn said:

Isn't that the point?

The matched 1kw power means that you can never overload the wire, you get grey outs/machines not running but dont get wires burning out.

I always assumed this was a deliberate gameplay mechanic, 1kw is the easy one, machines may not turn on but you wont have repair jobs generated, 2kw gives you a bit more juice but now you have to manage the maximum yourself or things start breaking, and then the heavy versions add the whole, cant go through walls/need to be hidden to counter the massive decor cost stuff.

Well those are wires. We're talking about transformers. Or, to be precise, transformers in a world that doesn't have voltages. Hence, their function and their purpose need to be redefined, meaning ONI transformers are not the same as real world ones, just like ONI pressure is not the same as real world one.

One function they have, per spec, is to limit load. I won't use "power" because power is on the generator side and 1kW wires can handle an infinite amount (probably more than you can build). Meaning, you can have 100 generators charging 100 batteries in seconds on the same 1kW wire.

In the ONI universe we have load (power on the consumer side, or consumed energy per second as opposed to stored or produced). That's what burns wires. Well, sustained load, since load that lasts for less than 2s doesn't.

In terms of load, ONI transformers act both as a valve (limiting it) and as a diode (making it one way).  Loads placed on the low side appear (or are transfered) on the high side, but not more than 1kW or 4kW. Loads placed on the high side are not transferred on the low side. I know this sounds like a very strange way of looking at it (kind of the opposite of energy flow) but this is closer to what actually happens. So, on a standard grid, all loads on the low sides of various transformers add up on the shared high side circuit. They don't add on the low sides, making it possible to use lower rate wires for those.

[TheOneFinn]

Quote

Well those are wires. We're talking about transformers. 

Yes but the protection that prevents wires overloading comes from the transformer limit.

Put 9 fridges on a 1kw wire hooked up to a 1kw transformer and 8 fridges function, 1 doesnt and no wires pop (as I demonstrated in the screenshot above)

put 17 fridges on a 2kw wire hooked up to a 4kw transformer and wires start burning out because the transformer is able to provide more than 2kw. A 2kw transformer would be "safe" and would behave like the 1kw transformer on a 1kw wire.

I seem to remember reading somewhere that Kleis design premise is that nothing should be a straight upgrade, if something is "better" it should also come with a downside.

[psusi]

3 hours ago, OxCD said:

By the way, they could just change the in-game text from 4kW to 2kW without touching the code of the transformer, and you'll never notice those are still at 4kW, because we cannot use this capacity anyway...

You can use it when the output is a heavy watt wire.  Or if the output is a circuit that only feeds battery switchers with no actual direct loads.

27 minutes ago, TheMule said:

In terms of load, ONI transformers act both as a valve (limiting it) and as a diode (making it one way).  Loads placed on the low side appear (or are transfered) on the high side, but not more than 1kW or 4kW. Loads placed on the high side are not transferred on the low side. I know this sounds like a very strange way of looking at it (kind of the opposite of energy flow) but this is closer to what actually happens. So, on a standard grid, all loads on the low sides of various transformers add up on the shared high side circuit. They don't add on the low sides, making it possible to use lower rate wires for those.

What really happens is the transformer is a generator on one side and a load on the other, much like a pipe bridge is a sink on one end and a source on the other.  The upstream side does not see the loads on the downstream side; it only sees a single load, the transformer, and the size of the load depends on the total downstream load.  I'm not sure you meant it, but the way you said it makes it sound like if you were to look at the energy tab on the upstream wire you would actually see the loads on the downstream wire.

 

[TheMule]

43 minutes ago, psusi said:

I'm not sure you meant it, but the way you said it makes it sound like if you were to look at the energy tab on the upstream wire you would actually see the loads on the downstream wire.

"See" not literally. I mean if you look at the wire you don't see individual loads. But "feel" yes. Limited to the limit of the transformer.

Meaning if you have 1.2kW refinery (active) on the low side you "see" a 1.2kW load on the high side. Not "the" same load. "A" 1.2kW load.

 

Yes, in theory a 4kW transformer is a load on the high side and a generator on the low side, but it doesn't really work like that. In the example above you don't see a 4kW load.

Think of this:

gens -> heavy watt wire -> 4kW transformer -> a large group of smart batteries -> 1.2kW refinery. You use one smart battery to control the transformer.

This generates an intermittent 4kW load, while the transformer is used to charge the batteries. That's more like how other loads behave, like an aquatuner that draws full power when on and 0W when off.

But usually it doesn't work like this. The internal battery of a transformer is so small that it's almost irrelevant. The result is that the transformer appears as a 1.2kW load on high, not as 4kW.

It's more like the transformer copies the load from the low side to the high side. That's what I meant.

[sheaker]

I am using transformers in two ways.

1. I build a circuit that  will never exceed wire limit (i.e. less that 2kw on conductive wire) and then it can be powered by 4kW transformer. It separate low voltage circuit from hi voltage circuit thus prevents overload.

2. If I have circuit with multiply machines that are working at random, are not essential, and the circuit can be potentially overloaded (i.e I have all gantry and bunker doors for rocket under one circuit, this is about 15kW on 2kW circuit) then I am using two 1kW transformers together to limit the total circuit flux to 2kW thus prevents overload.

[OxCD]

2 hours ago, psusi said:

You can use it when the output is a heavy watt wire.  Or if the output is a circuit that only feeds battery switchers with no actual direct loads.

Yes you can. You can also plug 4 transformers to a large one. I see no useful point of doing all of those designs, but you can.

[Smife]

54 minutes ago, sheaker said:

If I have circuit with multiply machines that are working at random, are not essential, and the circuit can be potentially overloaded (i.e I have all gantry and bunker doors for rocket under one circuit, this is about 15kW on 2kW circuit) then I am using two 1kW transformers together to limit the total circuit flux to 2kW thus prevents overload.

That's the thing with shipping systems. I have a dedicated 2kW grid for those with a potential load of 3.8kW and it never breaks, but still unpredictable. Question is how many more sweepers can I add till it starts getting dicey. Because we know the potential load, but not where it normally peaks.

7 hours ago, OxCD said:

Hem. Definitely no.

50W wire is just very useful for the late game. My last save had regular 38/40kW consumption, with peaks at 48/49kW. A lot easier to deal with because of this wire.

Before, it was only 20kW, so to go further we had to split our power system on different grids, or to create an alternator to balance our generators on the different grids.

That's ONI. They are not giving us the tool, they are giving us the stuff that we use to create the tool. Adding a 4kW wire will change a lot the gameplay around power management. It will simplify a lot, which is apparently not wanted by Klei (thanks).

As mentionned above, simpliest thing would be to swap large transformer to 2kW instead of 4kW. That would help some minds to sleep better, and change nothing into the gameplay.

By the way, they could just change the in-game text from 4kW to 2kW without touching the code of the transformer, and you'll never notice those are still at 4kW, because we cannot use this capacity anyway...

Agree, changing the transformer would be the best solution, after all that was the whole idea of the thread. And I see why other players would use the 50kW wire regularly. I normally have about 8 dupes and my bases aren't very big

[psusi]

4 hours ago, OxCD said:

Yes you can. You can also plug 4 transformers to a large one. I see no useful point of doing all of those designs, but you can.

You don't see the point of sending unlimited amount of power over a regular wire?

3 hours ago, Smife said:

Agree, changing the transformer would be the best solution, after all that was the whole idea of the thread. And I see why other players would use the 50kW wire regularly. I normally have about 8 dupes and my bases aren't very big

In the quote he suggested not actually changing the transformer, but only the description of it.

[OxCD]

42 minutes ago, psusi said:

You don't see the point of sending unlimited amount of power over a regular wire?

I don't see how having a 4kW transformer instead of a 2kW transformer would help to send unlimited amount of power over a regular wire. Nuance.

 

42 minutes ago, psusi said:

In the quote he suggested not actually changing the transformer, but only the description of it.

Nop. The OP gets correctly my post. As said, simpliest thing would be to swap the wattage output. The bold paragraph was a simulation to support the concept I tried to explain. Of course, there's no way Klei will just change a description to get rid of the problem, without changing the mechanic behind. Thanks gosh they will never do such a non-professionnal thing.

[psusi]

1 hour ago, OxCD said:

I don't see how having a 4kW transformer instead of a 2kW transformer would help to send unlimited amount of power over a regular wire. Nuance.

Oh.. well... because it sends twice as much power of course  Yea, you could use two 2 kw transformers, but then you use more space and metal.